Protestants - When did the Catholic Church Begin?

[John_Calvin]

That is far from the true. The Catholic Church was first recorded in St. Ignatius of Antioch letter to the Smyrnaeans. In that Apostolic Letter, he wrote;

Chapter 8:

**See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, **wherever Jesus Christ ****is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

This is was written in 110 AD. I think Church Militant pointed out that in the Greek word, the word Catholic can also be found in Acts. I forgot which chapter or verse.

The Catholic Church also trace its history to St. Peter, who Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom too. Jesus founded the Catholic Church not mere human beings.

The use of the word “catholic” to describe the church does not prove your case. There are many words which have evolved in their meaning over time. This is one such case. It was at this time that the bishops came to prominence as assuring adherance to proper teaching. The church had been facing challenges from gnostic viewpoints which were later to find strong opposition from those such as Irenaeus and Hippolytus.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The problem being that what is meant by the term “the Catholic Church” has itself changed over the course of 2000 years of history. Today what is meant is what is known to some as the Roman Catholic Church, a institutional organization with its seat at Rome. But when Ignatius spoke of the Catholic Church he meant something different than that which is meant today

Those who identify themselves as Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, and some Catholics do address us as Roman Catholic Church. In the time of the Reformation, Protestants called us Romanist, Papists. Yet, the Catholic Church remain as the Catholic Church.

The word Catholic means universal. That definition of the word has not changed. The priests, bishops, and Popes have called Christ Church as the Catholic Church. Our Catechism itself is called “Catechism of the Catholic Church.” It does not rule out Eastern Rite.

As a Latin Rite Catholic, I find it extremely offensive to call the Catholic Church as just Roman Catholic Church. You put that as our label, it would offended the Eastern Rite Catholics who like I said are NOT ROMAN!

It was saying that no matter where one was in the world, it didn’t matter what country, what ethnicity, what bishop was presiding, that there was just one church that was universal and all Christians are one in it, no matter what other difference there might exist between them.

Iraneus would put it like this:

The Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believed these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed one mouth.

This is what it means to be “catholic”, this is the “catholic Church” (small “c” on catholic, large “C” on Church) spoken of in the apostles creed. And this catholic or universal church still exists, not as headed by the Pope in Rome, but as headed by Christ in the hearts and minds of those who belong to him every local congregation and no congregation scattered around the globe.

That statement is true, because in the Catechism it head that the Church’s head is Jesus Christ. It is no different.

So, how does anyone answer when the Catholic Church came into existence? I don’t think you can point to a precise time. The Catholic Church as the term is used today was NOT present when Jesus established the Church on Peter. I don’t think it was yet present with the passing of the apostolic age. I don’t think it was even present at the time of the writings of Ignatius and Iranesous, though you can see some of the things that would become foundation stones used by the Catholic Church in their writings.

That is a false statement. The Catholic Church existed and it was born on the side of Christ when blood and water was pour out. At Penecost, the Church proclaimed itself to the world to preach the Good News of Jesus Christ as the Promised Messiah.

Yet, by the time of Leo I it was clearly institutionalized.

The Catholic Church evolved over time. It is like asking when did the wolf become a dog. There was a time when there was a canine that was not a dog that eventually became a dog. And there was a time when there was a catholic Church that was not the Catholic Church. And sometimes between then and now both evolved. But to put a date on it, and say that the first dog was born on this date or that the Catholic Church began on that date, it is an impossible question that one could not have answered even if you had been there. But just as it is clear that a dog is descended from a wolf but is not a wolf, so to it is clear that the Catholic Church is descended from the catholic Church but is not the same as the catholic Church spoken of by Ignatious.

I see so many false statements in your remark. The Catholic Church’s doctrine did developed overtime but the doctrine of the faith remain same. For example, the concept of the Trinity did not came about until 180 AD and it was defined by the Council of Nicea in 325 AD as part of the Orthodox Christian belief. The Trinity is part of this so called evolution. In the Council, we believe that God is a Triune God. Three Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but One God.

These doctrines evolve to combat heresy and to clarify certain Christian beliefs that needed to be defined. There were disputes in the Early Church. When disputes arises heresies are born out of it.

Such as the:

1. 
   *]Adoptionism
   *]Arianism
   *]Bogomils
   *]Docetism
   *]Nestorianism
   *]Manichaeism
   *]Monophysitism
   *]Monothelitism
   *]Donatism
   *]Fraticelli (Spiritual Franciscans)
   *]Waldensians
   *]Arnold of Brescia
   *]Catharism
   *]Free Spirit
   *]Henry of Lausanne
   *]Antinomianism
   *]Apollinarism
   *]Audianism
   *]Bosnian Church
   *]Catharism
   *]Christian Zionism
   *]Ebionites
   *]Euchites
   *]Gnosticism
   *]Iconoclasm
   *]Jansenism
   *]Luciferians
   *]Mandaeism
   *]Marcionism
   *]Messalians
   *]Millennialism
   *]Monarchianism
   *]Montanism
   *]Ophites
   *]Patripassianism
   *]Paulicianism
   *]Pelagianism/Semipelagianism
   *]Priscillianism
   *]Psilanthropism
   *]Sabellianism
   *]Socinianism
   
   That’s a lot of heresy that the Early Church, which is the Catholic Church had to combat. The Councils condemned and issued anathama to them.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Church has always been and always will be “corrupt”. It is made up of corrupt sinful people. The Church has always been and always will be “holy”. It is made up of people redeemed by the blood of Christ with his righteousness credited to them. You can’t say it began with Constantine for the need for the apostles to appoint deacons to take care of the needs in the early church when some were accusing others of favoritism shows that the issues go back to the very beginning, but that doesn’t mean that the church is any less of God because of it.

The Church is NOT Corrupt. Members of the Church are certainly corrupt, but not the corrupt.

The Church is HOLY, simply because She was founded by Christ. Every member of the Church could be a card-carrying heretic from the Pope down to the Cleaning Lady at St. Pius’ Bingo night and yet the Church would still be Holy.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The use of the word “catholic” to describe the church does not prove your case. There are many words which have evolved in their meaning over time. This is one such case. It was at this time that the bishops came to prominence as assuring adherance to proper teaching. The church had been facing challenges from gnostic viewpoints which were later to find strong opposition from those such as Irenaeus and Hippolytus.

It does. For all Ireneaus and Hippolytus are Catholic bishops. They also believe in the Real Presence and the Sacrifice of the Mass.

St. Irenaeus succeeded St. Pothinus to become the second bishop of Lyons in 177 A.D. Earlier in his life he studied under St. Polycarp. Considered, one of the greatest theologians of the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus is best known for refuting the Gnostic heresies.

[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies."

Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

“So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God’s gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ’s Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, ‘For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones’ (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of ‘spiritual’ and ‘invisible’ man, ‘for a spirit does not have flesh an bones’ (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and ‘the grain of wheat falls into the earth’ (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ.”

-"Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely

Named Gnosis". Book 5:2, 2-3, circa 180 A.D. “For just as the bread which comes from the earth, having received the invocation of God, is no longer ordinary bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly, so our bodies, having received the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, because they have the hope of the resurrection.”

-“Five Books on the Unmasking and Refutation of the Falsely named Gnosis”. Book 4:18 4-5, circa 180 A.D

Just as Catholics today believe in the sacrifice of the Mass just as St. Ireneaus.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Since the word “Catholic” only means universal, it is a streach to make it mean the "Roman Catholic church as we know it today. According to secular history I have read the Roman church became corrupt and apostate under the reign of Constatine around 350 AD. You won’t fine this history in Catholic history books but you will in the secular library books.

The word Catholic Church was first used as by St. Ignatius of Antioch.

So you are wrong again.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

“…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

“[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).

“For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,–in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,–and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled.” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against Heretics, 22,30 (A.D. 200).

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

 

[Mannyfit75]

“But for those who say, There was when He was not, and, Before being born He was not, and that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance…these the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes.” Creed of Nicea (A.D. 325).

“Concerning those who call themselves Cathari, if they come over to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, the great and holy Synod decrees that they who are ordained shall continue as they are in the clergy. But it is before all things necessary that they should profess in writing that they will observe and follow the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; in particular that they will communicate with persons who have been twice married, and with those who having lapsed in persecution have had a period [of penance] laid upon them, and a time [of restoration] fixed so that in all things they will follow the dogmas of the Catholic Church…” Council of Nicaea I (A.D. 325).

“Concerning this Holy Catholic Church Paul writes to Timothy, ‘That thou mayest know haw thou oughtest to behave thyself in the House of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth’” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,18:25(A.D. 350).

"[T]he Article, In one Holy Catholic Church,’ on which, though one might say many things, we will speak but briefly. It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly… for this cause the Faith has securely delivered to thee now the Article, And in one Holy Catholic Church;’ that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which thou wast regenerated. And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350).

“I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the remission of sins, the resurrection of the flesh, and eternal life. Amen.” Apostles Creed (A.D. 360).

“And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the life-giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is together worshiped and together glorified, Who spoke through the prophets; in one holy Catholic, and apostolic Church.” Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381).

“Those who from heresy turn to orthodoxy, and to the portion of those who are being saved, we receive according to the following method and custom: Arians, and Macedonians, and Sabbatians, and Novatians, who call themselves Cathari or Aristori, and Quarto-decimans or Tetradites, and Apollinarians, we receive, upon their giving a written renunciation [of their errors] and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God.” Council of Constantinople I, Canon 7 (A.D. 381).

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).

“Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, we believe also in the Holy Church, [intending thereby] assuredly the Catholic. For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same.” Augustine, On Faith and Creed, 10:21 (A.D. 393).

“For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…–not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church…Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church…For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church…for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you.” Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, 4:5,5:6 (A.D 397).

scripturecatholic.com Source

 

[Mannyfit75]

To all Non-Catholic Christians,

and STOP calling our Church Roman Catholic Church! Call it Catholic Church.

Our Catechism which is a Church document has a title. It’s called.

Catechism of the Catholic Church not Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church.

If you address it as Roman Catholic Church. It will offend many of our Eastern Rite Catholics who are NOT ROMAN!!!

It is apparent that most of you Protestants don’t know about the Eastern Catholic Church.

You want to know who they are. Well, their Liturgy is like the Eastern Orthodox Church but they are in full communion with Rome.

About 500 yrs ago, several Eastern Orthodox Churches reunited with the Catholic Church. These are called uniates Churches.

Wikipedia defines uniates as:

The term Uniat or Uniate is applied to those Eastern Catholic churches who were previously Eastern Orthodox churches, and to their members, primarily by Eastern Orthodox, who sometimes give it pejorative overtones.[15] The term was also historically used, though less frequently, by Latin and Eastern Catholics, especially prior to the Second Vatican Council.[16] Official Catholic documents no longer use the term, due to its perceived negative overtones.[17] According to Eastern Orthodox Professor John Erickson of St Vladimir’s Theological Seminary, “The term ‘uniate’ itself, once used with pride in the Roman communion, had long since come to be considered as pejorative. ‘Eastern Rite Catholic’ also was no longer in vogue because it might suggest that the Catholics in question differed from Latins only in the externals of worship. The Second Vatican Council affirmed rather that Eastern Catholics constituted churches, whose vocation was to provide a bridge to the separated churches of the East…”

Source: I highly recommend you read this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

Because these Catholics are NOT ROMAN!

 

[NotWorthy]

Manny, I have a feeling these multiple post cut-and-pastes are not having any effect. I certainly don’t tend to read them when someone presents them to me.

Who knows, it may be the ADHD in me!

Besides, I’m really not sure it’s in line with Forum etiquette, my brother!

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny, I have a feeling these multiple post cut-and-pastes are not having any effect. I certainly don’t tend to read them when someone presents them to me.

Who knows, it may be the ADHD in me!

Besides, I’m really not sure it’s in line with Forum etiquette, my brother!

The link for those cut and paste information have its sources. Like Wikipedia and ScriptureCatholic.com which I quoted from the ECF concerning the use of the word Catholic Church.

 

[LutheranStudent]

Not entirely true. If you want to describe the Church as just Roman Catholic Church to those who are in full communion with Rome that is not very accurate. For one, those in the** Eastern Rite Catholic Church** (all 22 Rites) are NOT Roman. It would be an insult to them to address them as Roman. They do not adhere to praying the rosary, doing the station of the cross and so forth.

In the beginning of Christianity, the Church resided in Jerusalem as Peter as the leader of the entire Church, and James as the bishop of Jerusalem. Overtime, the church community grow. From Jerusalem it went to Antioch, then Alexandria, Rome, and Constantinople.

These are commonly referred to as the Five Patriarchiates of the church, whose foundation is founded on the Apostles themselves. Peter & Paul founded the Church in Antioch, and Rome, Jerusalem for James, Mark for Alexandria, and Andrew for Constantinople.

Second, the foundation of Christ Church is not based on Rome. It is based upon the See of Peter. Where he is, the Church is there.

St. Ignatius of Antioch in 107-110 AD wrote the following letter:

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

Aah, but you know what I meant Manny. I simply mean to combat the idea that the Roman Catholic Church is the only Christian church. And the quotes that you provide are coincidental and a matter of translation. The word catholic should be small case “c” where you quote them, because they were not referring strictly to the RCC and/or traditions that commune with her. Polycarp and Ignatius were referring to the catholic church, not the Catholic one. The term itself comes from the Greek, καθος ολος γη, which means over-the-whole-earth. These saints were not talking about a denomination seated in Rome. They were talking about the followers of a Savior, Jesus Christ, over the face of the whole earth.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Aah, but you know what I meant Manny. I simply mean to combat the idea that the Roman Catholic Church is the only Christian church. And the quotes that you provide are coincidental and a matter of translation. The word catholic should be small case “c” where you quote them, because they were not referring strictly to the RCC and/or traditions that commune with her. Polycarp and Ignatius were referring to the catholic church, not the Catholic one. The term itself comes from the Greek, καθος ολος γη, which means over-the-whole-earth. These saints were not talking about a denomination seated in Rome. They were talking about the followers of a Savior, Jesus Christ, over the face of the whole earth.

That is a false statement. You are incorrect by claiming that Polycarp and Igatius were referring to the Catholic Church. They were also referring to the universal Church, which is properly called Catholic. That is kinda ridicules statement to say, “Polycarp and Ignatius were referring to catholic church,not Catholic one.” Well, in their letter, the word Catholic is capitalized. It’s just not Polycarp and Ignatius, but Augustine, and other Church Fathers.

These men are speaking about the worldly Church. The Catholic Church today is not based on a city. It is based on the Apostolic See on Peter and on Jesus Christ. It doesn’t matter where the Pope is. Just as St. Ignatius of Antioch said, “where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Where you find the bishops, there is also the Catholic Church.

 

[seniorrains]

In human history, it is reported that on November 24, 380 AD, Emperor Theodius 1 is baptized a Christian and declares Christianity the State religion of the Roman Empire. This historical account is what most Protestant believes to be the birth and the start of the Catholic Church.

 

[ahem]

It would be an insult to them to address them as Roman.

I am thankful that I am not insulted to be identified, even if mistakenly, with any part of the body of Christ.

 

[Mannyfit75]

In human history, it is reported that on November 24, 380 AD, Emperor Theodius 1 is baptized a Christian and declares Christianity the State religion of the Roman Empire. This historical account is what most Protestant believes to be the birth and the start of the Catholic Church.

and it is a distorted truth and it is a LIE!

The Catholic Church born from the side of Jesus Christ.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

766 The Church is born primarily of Christ’s total self-giving for our salvation, anticipated in the institution of the Eucharist and fulfilled on the cross. “The origin and growth of the Church are symbolized by the blood and water which flowed from the open side of the crucified Jesus.” “For it was from the side of Christ as he slept the sleep of death upon the cross that there came forth the 'wondrous sacrament of the whole Church.’” As Eve was formed from the sleeping Adam’s side, so the Church was born from the pierced heart of Christ hanging dead on the cross.

 

[LutheranStudent]

That is a false statement. You are incorrect by claiming that Polycarp and Igatius were referring to the Catholic Church. They were also referring to the universal Church, which is properly called Catholic. That is kinda ridicules statement to say, “Polycarp and Ignatius were referring to catholic church,not Catholic one.” Well, in their letter, the word Catholic is capitalized. It’s just not Polycarp and Ignatius, but Augustine, and other Church Fathers.

These men are speaking about the worldly Church. The Catholic Church today is not based on a city. It is based on the Apostolic See on Peter and on Jesus Christ. It doesn’t matter where the Pope is. Just as St. Ignatius of Antioch said, “where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Where you find the bishops, there is also the Catholic Church.

Actually, no offense Manny, but they didn’t capitalize the word “Catholic.” Some editor or translator did that to make you think what you do. The fact is that both of those church fathers wrote in Greek, and ancient Greek had no large or small caps, or spaces. LETMEEMPHASIZETHAT. ANCIENTGREEKHADNOLARGEORSMALLCAPSORSPACESOREVENPUNCTUATION. With that being the case - isn’t better to take their words at face value?

 

[Bamm]

We don’t all agree that the Catholic Church is the one true church anymore than we agree that the Mormon Church is the one true church.

Check Constantine out. He merged Christian beliefs with pagan and that is where many of the Catholic/Christian traditions and rituals were formed and adopted.

The main thing here is that it doesn’t really matter. Read the Catechism. One doesn’t have to be Catholic to be Christian or to go heaven.

BAMM

 

[LutheranStudent]

Here’s a sample Greek manuscript, Manny. Tell me if you see any capitol letters. (Hint: They’re all capital letters.) Just trust me, eh? Those church fathers weren’t members of the Catholic Church. They were members of the church catholic.

orin.net/uncials.jpg

 

[LutheranStudent]

We don’t all agree that the Catholic Church is the one true church anymore than we agree that the Mormon Church is the one true church.

Check Constantine out. He merged Christian beliefs with pagan and that is where many of the Catholic/Christian traditions and rituals were formed and adopted.

The main thing here is that it doesn’t really matter. Read the Catechism. One doesn’t have to be Catholic to be Christian or to go heaven.

BAMM

Whoa! Whao! Hold on there Bamm. People certainly have to be Christian to go to heaven. Where did you get that crazy idea from? Please don’t say it’s from the Catholic Catechism, because if you cite that as a source you already negate your whole argument by citing a source that, according to your argument, isn’t necessarily authoritative.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

After Jesus’ Ascension it was Peter who was the visible head of the Church. He made his way to Rome to establish the Church there. Peter’s successors continued to feed the flock until this very day.

Constantine was a pagan who converted to Christianity by way of the prayers of his saintly mother Helena. She petitioned her son to bring to Rome the holy artifacts from Jerusalem,and he did.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Here’s a sample Greek manuscript, Manny. Tell me if you see any capitol letters. (Hint: They’re all capital letters.) Just trust me, eh? Those church fathers weren’t members of the Catholic Church. They were members of the church catholic.

They are members of the Catholic Church period. This is not making sense to me.

You are saying, the Church Fathers were members of the Catholic Church. They were member of the Church Catholic?

That’s hogwash. It’s like say. President Bush is the President of the United States, but is not part of the United States. What kind of logic are you getting? This is confusing. It is apparent, you don’t know what you are talking about.

Frankly, I find your argument week. It’s like claimingt the Rock isn’t a rock. but it is a rock.