Protestants - When did the Catholic Church Begin?

[Mannyfit75]

That’s just rudeness, disinformation, and slander. Like saying that Catholics are arrogant and walk around with an air of superiority because they think they are IT, the only one.

It’s the truth. There are 30,000 Protestant denomination with different set of beliefs.

 

[Mannyfit75]

So you never tire of telling us.

Now ask us if we care. This is not even a blip on our radar.

Sure there are crazies. Your church deals with them by introducing extra definitions and placing them outside, creating a rather baroque structure of institutional common by-law.

The crazies then go on to form their own churches.

Actually, that last part is not so much different than how we deal with it as well.

Then deal with it.

Again, you tell us this all the time.

But we don’t really care and we tell you all the time that it’s just another in a long list of unsubstantiated claims that we find neither compelling nor, really, even sensible.

The truth is this. Only the Catholic Church is the One Church founded by Jesus Christ. I said this numerous times.

Okay.

Again, who cares how you grade anyone or what you think of them?

Not really but Protestants here have not made a very strong case that the Catholic Church stated in a later date.

Let me give you a grade:

For temperament, I give you a C+, you’re usually pretty gentle but you do occasionally lapse into that all too Catholic tendency to grandstand and triumphalize.

Because we are right and Protestant theology is wrong.

For content I give you a solid B, you are only hamstrung by your prejusdices and these are largely forgiven for the sake of thoroughness and clarity.

Because Protestants come here and distort the truth and claim the Church was founded by Constantinople. That the Catholic Church is not the same Catholic Church as it was founded by Jesus Christ that it departed from the truth.

So who is telling the truth then? Catholics or Protestants? With 2,000 yrs of history behind them, I would go with the Catholic Church. She has experience. Protestants don’t.

For effort I am happy to give you an A. You always try really, really hard and your stamina is unparalleled.

Your average grade is a B+.

Fine.

Well, that’s nice, but as we like to say, “To be deep in history is to discover that Popes and councils actually can and have erred”.

Really what Council and Pope actually error? NONE! That is wishful thinking.

The typical Catholic view of history as shown on this board is deeply flawed as well, most starkly by the perennial penchant for revising everything in the light of much later events and the efforts made to unsay or explain away the far more knotty problems of history a la Crocker et al.

The fall back position of just loudly laying claim to the specific and sole institution of your church by Christ is really adorable.

Absolutely unconvincing, but really darling.

Protestant lost history that this why the come up with lies to make history fit their own. Historical facts show that the Catholic Church is the Only Church established by Jesus Christ.

The Nicene Creed did say, “I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.”

It doesn’t say, I believe in one Protestant Apostolic Church. Protestants didn’t exist until 1517-45.

If you claim the Church error then Jesus is in Error.

 

[Steadfast]

It’s the truth. There are 30,000 Protestant denomination with different set of beliefs.

There are probably five actual varieties of Protestant with a high degree of concord on about 85% of core doctrinal belief. The differences have, mostly, to do with window dressing.

The difference between us and Rome is that we don’t particularly feel the need to claim that any one of our churches is the only true one although each of them, if they are honest, will tell you that they believe themselves to be the truest and best expression.

This is such a non-issue for at least two main reasons:

1. The numbers can be parsed according to polemical interest; i.e. there can be made to be five or 60 thousand “denominations” depending on your intent.
2. Protestants don’t care. We don’t place our trust in institutions as a rule but are happy to trust in Christ Whose church it is.

 

[Mannyfit75]

There are probably five actual varieties of Protestant with a high degree of concord on about 85% of core doctrinal belief. The differences have, mostly, to do with window dressing.

Protestant is a man-made religion made the Protestant Fathers.

The difference between us and Rome is that we don’t particularly feel the need to claim that any one of our churches is the only true one although each of them, if they are honest, will tell you that they believe themselves to be the truest and best expression.

This is such a non-issue for at least two main reasons:

1. The numbers can be parsed according to polemical interest; i.e. there can be made to be five or 60 thousand “denominations” depending on your intent.

1. Protestants don’t care. We don’t place our trust in institutions as a rule but are happy to trust in Christ Whose church it is.

So Protestants don’t believe the Bride of Church can be trusted. Wow. How dare you separate the Church and Jesus Christ. What authority give you Protestants to divorce the Church and Jesus?

That’s very sad of you. I trust in Jesus Christ and His Church, and that he will protect his Church. For Jesus Church did promised his Church, the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” It is the apparent lack of trust you have Jesus Christ that he can’t protect his Bride.

Shame on you. You will be held accountible for not trusting his Church. Yes, Church members may be imperfect but the Bride of the Christ is Holy. The Soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit. The Church is the Body of Christ. How dare you separate the Church and Jesus! This is an insult to God’s divine providence!

 

[Steadfast]

Manny,

Two things:

1. I never said the “Catholic Church” started later than Christ’s institution of it. All I said was that the use of the specific adjective “catholic” to describe it came later than this establishment. I never posited any essential disconnect between any phase of the church’s existence.
2. As I have said many times, there is an essential difference between Unam Sanctam on the one hand and Lumen Gentium on the other when it comes to the issue of the soteriological status of non-catholics. This difference is not merely one of tone.

This is only one example, and I am not introducing it to start a new argument, I am merely pointing to it as an example of the revisionist tendencies of many Catholics around here, yourself not excluded.

 

[Steadfast]

So Protestants don’t believe the Bride of Church can be trusted. Wow. How dare you separate the Church and Jesus Christ. What authority give you Protestants to divorce the Church and Jesus?

That’s very sad of you. I trust in Jesus Christ and His Church, and that he will protect his Church. For Jesus Church did promised his Church, the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” It is the apparent lack of trust you have Jesus Christ that he can’t protect his Bride.

Shame on you. You will be held accountible for not trusting his Church. Yes, Church members may be imperfect but the Bride of the Christ is Holy. The Soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit. The Church is the Body of Christ. How dare you separate the Church and Jesus! This is an insult to God’s divine providence!

You are really reaching here.

There is a vast difference between the ecclesiolatry of much Roman Catholicism and the relative libertarianism of the Protestant expressions but the difference is not one of disrespect for or love for the church relatively speaking.

You really look silly when you say things like this.

Don’t make me revise my grade.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

It’s the truth. There are 30,000 Protestant denomination with different set of beliefs.

Yes. That’s the truth. (Although probably more than 30,000 if you wanted to quibble over numbers.) But that is not all you said.

You also said “It is in Protestant’s nature to disagree.” And that statement is what is rude, disinformation, and slander.

It is no more in a Protestant’s nature than in a Catholic’s nature. Indeed some of the most tolerant people I know are Protestants and Catholics are some of the most disagreeable. Or do you disagree with my opinion? Maybe you want to protest my conclusions?

 

[Mannyfit75]

You are really reaching here.

There is a vast difference between the ecclesiolatry of much Roman Catholicism and the relative libertarianism of the Protestant expressions but the difference is not one of disrespect for or love for the church relatively speaking.

You really look silly when you say things like this.

Don’t make me revise my grade.

What do I care. No matter what you say, you Protestants can’t prove anything about the history of the Church. Not once have you disprove the Catholic Church isn’t the same Church as it was in the beginning. Not one.

 

[abcd]

On another website board, many protestants insisted that Constantine, started the Catholic Church. Of course, they didn’t want to believe that “Constantine’s pagan Church” would have had to be the one that was responsible for their New Testament, in proclaiming which books were to be canonized, and which would not.

I have found that many have no real interest in factual church history. For many, it takes a lot of courage to leave their safety zone, and really search for the truth, with a clear and open conscience!

It really does not matter if the pagan Roman church was used by God to keep the Canonized secure because God had been know to use a donkee to acieive His Purpose although the Romans added a few that contradict the scriptures that we knew were from God.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny,

Two things:

1. I never said the “Catholic Church” started later than Christ’s institution of it. All I said was that the use of the specific adjective “catholic” to describe it came later than this establishment. I never posited any essential disconnect between any phase of the church’s existence.

Ok.

1. As I have said many times, there is an essential difference between Unam Sanctam on the one hand and Lumen Gentium on the other when it comes to the issue of the soteriological status of non-catholics. This difference is not merely one of tone.

This is only one example, and I am not introducing it to start a new argument, I am merely pointing to it as an example of the revisionist tendencies of many Catholics around here, yourself not excluded.

Fine.

 

[Steadfast]

What do I care. No matter what you say, you Protestants can’t prove anything about the history of the Church. Not once have you disprove the Catholic Church isn’t the same Church as it was in the beginning. Not one.

But Manny, we’re in the same boat epistemologically speaking.

You can’t prove anything either, all you can do is say the same thing over and over again and hope it convinces somebody.

The difference is that what is important to you in discussion isn’t really all that important to us so it’s something like loudly proclaiming to a cow that your barn is the best one around.

 

[Mannyfit75]

It really does not matter if the pagan Roman church was used by God to keep the Canonized secure because God had been know to use a donkee to acieive His Purpose although the Romans added a few that contradict the scriptures that we knew were from God.

The Catholic Church is not pagan. That is a lie.

 

[Steadfast]

The Catholic Church is not pagan. That is a lie.

If it matters, I agree: the Catholic Church is definitely not pagan.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

So Protestants don’t believe the Bride of Church can be trusted. Wow. How dare you separate the Church and Jesus Christ. What authority give you Protestants to divorce the Church and Jesus?

What gives you that authority? That is not what Christ conferred on Peter. Protestant believers, not less than Catholic believers, are all part of the one Church, all part of the body of Christ, all together the Bride of Christ (I don’t know who you mean by your phrase “Bride of Church”.) What we don’t believe is that the Cathoic Church has exclusive rights to these terms. No, we don’t believe that the Pope or the Teaching Magesitrum of the Catholic Church can be trusted to be inerrant. We find that there have been errors in the past, like when the Pope says that other ecclesiastical bodies are not churches, or even the idea that any human being (no matter the office) has the power to cut another person off from their connection with Christ. The most they have is the power to disfellowship people from others within the body of Christ.

 

[abcd]

The Catholic Church is not pagan. That is a lie.

I didn’t say the Catholic church was pagan. I said “the Roman church”.

 

[NotWorthy]

It really does not matter if the pagan Roman church was used by God to keep the Canonized secure because God had been know to use a donkee to acieive His Purpose although the Romans added a few that contradict the scriptures that we knew were from God.

Que?!?

 

[NotWorthy]

I didn’t say the Catholic church was pagan. I said “the Roman church”.

I’m part of the Roman Church, and I’m pretty sure my Church worships the One True God. It’s the same Triune God we brought to the rest of Christianity.

So, what do you mean by this?

 

[abcd]

What gives you that authority? That is not what Christ conferred on Peter. Protestant believers, not less than Catholic believers, are all part of the one Church, all part of the body of Christ, all together the Bride of Christ (I don’t know who you mean by your phrase “Bride of Church”.) What we don’t believe is that the Cathoic Church has exclusive rights to these terms. No, we don’t believe that the Pope or the Teaching Magesitrum of the Catholic Church can be trusted to be inerrant. We find that there have been errors in the past, like when the Pope says that other ecclesiastical bodies are not churches, or even the idea that any human being (no matter the office) has the power to cut another person off from their connection with Christ. The most they have is the power to disfellowship people from others within the body of Christ.

I like the old days of the Roman Catholic church when it was black and white that all protestants were lost, period. That way there was no question of what catholics beleived. Now, there are so many contradictory beliefs among catholics including the pope that you don’t know what is going on.

 

[NotWorthy]

I like the old days of the Roman Catholic church when it was black and white that all protestants were lost, period. That way there was no question of what catholics beleived. Now, there are so many contradictory beliefs among catholics including the pope that you don’t know what is going on.

Once again, what does the Pagan Roman Catholic Church teach that is contradictory. A few facts may lend credence to your statements.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I didn’t say the Catholic church was pagan. I said “the Roman church”.

The Roman Church is not Pagan either. That is another lie.