Protestants, when did the Catholic Church go bad?

[Cat_Herder]

the belief of believing believers pervades the NT

I can’t say that five times fast.

I think you meant to say “the baptizing of believers pervades the NT.” From that you draw the conclusion that only believers can be baptized, but that is an invalid conclusion. The nursing profession is pervaded by women but that doesn’t mean that men cannot be nurses. The military is pervaded by men, but that doesn’t mean that women cannot be soldiers. When it comes to whether women can be pastors, we have clear Scripture that says this is not possible. But there is no verse that says that children cannot be Christians–quite the opposite, with Jesus warning those who prevent them from coming to Him that they will suffer horribly as a result.

The real problem is the faith-alone doctrine, which rests on the unbiblical concept of children losing their salvation at some age unless they profess faith. Once baptism is stripped of its sacramental character then it becomes an afterthought. Ironically, it is by pointing to the verses which state the sacramental nature of baptism while denying that baptism actually does anything that you try to state your case for credobaptism.

 

[Radical]

I think you meant to say “the baptizing of believers pervades the NT.”

no,but I’ll let you make the claim if you like.

From that you draw the conclusion that only believers can be baptized,…

well, that and the pervasive emphasis on belief…there is never a hint of one being a Christian or being baptized w/o belief by that person.

When it comes to whether women can be pastors, we have clear Scripture that says this is not possible.

where do you see this in your bible?

But there is no verse that says that children cannot be Christians–quite the opposite, with Jesus warning those who prevent them from coming to Him that they will suffer horribly as a result.

the kids came to Christ that day and baptism had nothing to do with it. The disciples weren’t preventing the kids from being baptized and Christ didn’t tell the disciples to let him baptize the kids. You are misapplying the text if you want to use it to argue for the baptism of infants.

The real problem is the faith-alone doctrine, which rests on the unbiblical concept of children losing their salvation at some age unless they profess faith.

you might have misunderstood the faith alone doctrine…if it is faith alone, then how would someone incapable of faith (the newborn) have acquired salvation in the first place?

Once baptism is stripped of its sacramental character then it becomes an afterthought.

or a command

Ironically, it is by pointing to the verses which state the sacramental nature of baptism while denying that baptism actually does anything that you try to state your case for credobaptism.

or is it that by pointing to the verses which always associate belief with baptism, that you try to state your case for the dispensability of exactly that (always present) belief?

 

[Cat_Herder]

no,but I’ll let you make the claim if you like.

well, that and the pervasive emphasis on belief…there is never a hint of one being a Christian or being baptized w/o belief by that person.

where do you see this in your bible?

the kids came to Christ that day and baptism had nothing to do with it. The disciples weren’t preventing the kids from being baptized and Christ didn’t tell the disciples to let him baptize the kids. You are misapplying the text if you want to use it to argue for the baptism of infants.

you might have misunderstood the faith alone doctrine…if it is faith alone, then how would someone incapable of faith (the newborn) have acquired salvation in the first place?

or a command

or is it that by pointing to the verses which always associate belief with baptism, that you try to state your case for the dispensability of exactly that (always present) belief?

I’m not even going to try to answer that blow by blow because as long as you are positing that someone has to do something in order to merit an unmerited gift, you’re never going to understand a word that I’m saying.

Babies are baptized precisely because salvation is an unmerited gift by God’s grace alone. Belief as a natural cognitive process has nothing, I repeat
NOTHING
to do with salvation. Your Sunday School grades have zilch to do with the size of your crown in heaven. The kind of faith that is associated with salvation is a gift from the Holy Spirit that comes AFTER one receives grace. It is NOT a precondition to receiving grace (which is your excuse for not baptizing babies). Nor is faith simply a cognitive process. It is a supernatural gift that simply manifests as a cognitive process in some respects.

Maybe you do not have to help people who have mental health issues, so you do not understand that Jesus loves them and wills their salvation even though they have little to no idea who He is. But if you would turn one of them away from baptism simply because they don’t have cognition of Who Jesus is, you will have to answer to Him for it because they are among the least of His people, and by turning them away, you turned Him away.

 

[1voice]

Your biblical argument (Paul’s explanation of baptism in Romans 6) is a better one. Paul doesn’t use the image of burial “repeatedly” as far as I know

Colossians 2:12
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Romans 6:4
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

But basically, the difference in the views boils down to theology and views about the centrality of grace. For the vast majority of Christians (both contemporary and historical), Baptism is and has always been understood as a grace given (1Peter 3:21, or again Romans 6)

Grace is not without responsibility.
To as many as received him… he gave the power to become sons of God …John 1:12.
God gives the opportunity… through his grace… to receive him … it is our responsibility to choose… and then follow… or not.

The grace is in the fact that we now have access to salvation and God’s gifts… and eternity in Heaven. Jesus suffered and died and paid the price for sin … for every last one of us … but that does not mean that all will repent and be saved. It is an individual choice. Jesus and the writers of the New Testament make that abundantly clear. Grace is certainly free … but it can only be received within the parameters that Jesus established. One of those parameters is “repent and be baptized”.
There is grace for salvation as well as living the new life in Christ … based on our choice and then, once in the kingdom, to put one foot in front of the other. Jesus clearly stated … Knock and the door will be opened … Seek and you will find… Ask … and keep on asking … and it will be given. Jesus also said Take up your cross and follow me … and … The kingdom of God suffers violence… and the violent take it by force. These words all imply diligence and determination and focus and personal accountability.

it’s something God does for people— regardless of what’s going on cognitively

That is not what Jesus said. It is not what Peter said … Acts 2:38.

—not a work or good deed that people do for God just because Jesus said so.

I didnt say that it was. It is a sign of humility and obedience. God always responds to humility. Blessed are the poor in spirit … theirs is the kingdom of God matt 5:3. That statement pretty much covers all of those that do not have the cognitive ability… as well as the children.

Jesus said… If you obey my words ( Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up James 4:10) …then … you will know the truth and the truth will make you free. Repentance followed by baptism is obedience … it shows humility … and the Bible states that God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

If baptism is dependent on human cognitive disposition, then for people who understand Baptism as a means of grace, anyone who can’t make an profession of faith (say, someone who is developmentally disabled) can’t become part of the Body of Christ (Romans 6). For people that see Baptism as a means of grace, that’s unthinkable.

When Jesus said repent and be baptized … he wasnt talking to people that couldnt understand. People that are the exception to the rule are like the children that Jesus described as being the ones that deserve heaven as the scripture says… Blessed are the poor in spirit… theirs is the kingdom of God… and … unless you become like little children (poor in spirit) you will not be admitted into the kingdom of God Matt 18:3.

Humility and grace are not passive.
God called Moses the humblest man in all the Earth Numbers 12:3 … Moses is an example of a man of action. Moses knew about grace.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Colossians 2:12
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Romans 6:4
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Grace is not without responsibility.
To as many as received him… he gave the power to become sons of God …John 1:12.
God gives the opportunity… through his grace… to receive him … it is our responsibility to choose… and then follow… or not.

The grace is in the fact that we now have access to salvation and God’s gifts… and eternity in Heaven. Jesus suffered and died and paid the price for sin … for every last one of us … but that does not mean that all will repent and be saved. It is an individual choice. Jesus and the writers of the New Testament make that abundantly clear. Grace is certainly free … but it can only be received within the parameters that Jesus established. One of those parameters is “repent and be baptized”.
There is grace for salvation as well as living the new life in Christ … based on our choice and then, once in the kingdom, to put one foot in front of the other. Jesus clearly stated … Knock and the door will be opened … Seek and you will find… Ask … and keep on asking … and it will be given. Jesus also said Take up your cross and follow me … and … The kingdom of God suffers violence… and the violent take it by force. These words all imply diligence and determination and focus and personal accountability.

That is not what Jesus said. It is not what Peter said … Acts 2:38.

I didnt say that it was. It is a sign of humility and obedience. God always responds to humility. Blessed are the poor in spirit … theirs is the kingdom of God matt 5:3. That statement pretty much covers all of those that do not have the cognitive ability… as well as the children.

Jesus said… If you obey my words ( Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up James 4:10) …then … you will know the truth and the truth will make you free. Repentance followed by baptism is obedience … it shows humility … and the Bible states that God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

When Jesus said repent and be baptized … he wasnt talking to people that couldnt understand. People that are the exception to the rule are like the children that Jesus described as being the ones that deserve heaven as the scripture says… Blessed are the poor in spirit… theirs is the kingdom of God… and … unless you become like little children (poor in spirit) you will not be admitted into the kingdom of God Matt 18:3.

Humility and grace are not passive.
God called Moses the humblest man in all the Earth Numbers 12:3 … Moses is an example of a man of action. Moses knew about grace.

Book, chapter and verse for where it says children lose their salvation at a certain age unless they repent please!

 

[LittleSoldier]

I have washed in rivers and lakes many times on camping trips… and have seen others do it as well … I dont remember a time when any of us didnt immerse ourselves as part of the process.

And I remember slipping on a rock and falling down into a creek when I was very young but I was not immersed totally. I’m also wondering why, even if Jesus went completely underwater, that is the only way a baptism must be done. I’ve missed part of the thread and I apologize if this has already been covered (I believed someone has already brought up the question as to whether we need to be baptised at the River Jordan). Just because it was done one way does not mean that other methods are necessarily wrong. Do we need to wear sandals and clothes the way Jesus did?

---

I understand and agree. Language is not that simple.
That is why context is so important. The context that Paul the Apostle repeatedly uses in describing Baptism is … that we are buried with Christ… the old man dies and remains dead in the grave … And the new man arises from the grave in Christ. Immersion fits that description perfectly. When something is buried … it is completely covered. that also fits one of the meanings of the word Babtizo

With all due respect, now you are saying that baptism is like burial which means complete covering and that is going on to the meaning of another word and this can go on until the cows come home.

If Jesus was baptised by total immersion then He was baptised by total immersion (I’m not claiming one way or the other). That does not mean that not being baptised by total immersion means that the baptism is invalid.

 

[LittleSoldier]

That’s an example of “mikvah”…this isn’t baptism…it is an example of the “mikvah” ritual washing…a JEWISH ritual washing that was the precursor of Christian baptism …the “mikvah” was not “baptism”.

Still, it seems that having water poured over one was remarkably effective in removing filthiness and idols. And Jesus was Jewish.

By John’s time I believe the Essenes practiced baptism…and it was adopted by the church as they were influenced by the Essenes.

No comment as I have no idea who the Essenes were or are or whatever and have to research it a little. Did the Essenes baptise using total immersion on only people who had reached a certain age and use the Trinitarian Formula? (You don’t need to answer this; I’ll see what I can find by googling).

 

[LittleSoldier]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice

I can only rely on that which is recorded… that record … proves fact.

I hope it’s OK if I step in here. I agree with this statement; well, kind of. The bible is silent on so much. It can’t possibly cover every contingency.

What is recorded … is a specific/ simple and very clear definition.
To answer your question … Jesus says it right here …
Mark 16:16 - He Who Believes and Is Baptized Will Be Saved

And that is the Word of God. So he who believes and is baptised will be saved, assuming there are no other qualifiers and that the Scripture is not taken out of context, etc.

When I checked I did find something. You didn’t post all of Mark 16:16. This is the whole statement:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[Mark 16:16, KJV (I normally use the Douay-Rheims but I wanted to use a Protestant bible in this case)]

It does not say that one must believe first and be baptised second in order to be saved (in fact, it doesn’t even say that one must be baptised to be saved but that is irrelevant as it doesn’t address the point you are trying to make). One could certainly read this sentence as meaning that one can be baptised and then later believe and will be saved and if this is true, infants can certainly be baptised and then believe when they have the ability to believe.

and again… Peter said the same thing … simply and clearly …
Acts 2:38 - Repent and Be Baptized for the Remission of Sins.

And as this is in the bible it is the Word of God, assuming there are no other qualifiers and that the Scripture is not taken out of context, etc.

… In both cases it is a 2 step process. … Cognitive choice is required as a prerequisite to taking the next step … and both scriptures confirm each other.

It doesn’t really say that as I read it. Where does either Scripture passage state that cognitive choice is required as a prerequisite to taking the next step? The first one you presented simply says that he who believes and is baptised will be saved. The second one simply says repent and be baptised. It is not necessarily a 2-step process.

Also, your first statement (“He who believes and is baptised will be saved”) doesn’t necessarily mean that one must believe first and be baptised second; your second statement (“Repent and be baptised for the remission of sins”) doesn’t necessarily mean that one must repent first and be baptised second. The second statement could easily be split into two statements:

(1) Repent for the remission of sins.
(2) Be baptised for the remission of sins.

But I think God covered that base as well…
Matt 19: 14
Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Please tell me I misread this; that you are not supporting abortion!

Baptism removes the stain of Original Sin. It brings people into the presence of God. It is holy and sacred; a Sacrament. It gives the person who is being baptised grace. Surely this is something that we should want even for young infants! But not abortion! If this were true we should take the life of every child (and it breaks my heart deeply to even write this!) so they can go straight to God. No - we should baptise them and bring them into God’s Church. We should not hinder them by making them wait until a certain age - they will make that cognitive choice you refer to at the time of their Confirmation; another Sacrament. Let their godparents and parents make the decision for them at Baptism and raise them in the Church and woe be to those who do not take their role seriously because they *are * hindering them.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Originally Posted by 1voice
You folks ask me for Biblical evidence … and one of you even rejected the dictionary. Yet you readily go to outside sources.

To me … that didnt matter … the point I was making was that some Catholics use the terms interchangeably and those that do so … know what the Catholic Sacrament is… and know exactly what each other is referring to.

How do you know that "those that do so…know what the Catholic Sacrament is…and know exactly what each other is referring to? It may be true in your limited experience but there is no way you can know this about all or even most of “those that do so” simply because you don’t know them or what they mean when they use these terms.

The most you can logically know is that some Catholics use the terms interchangeably and some of those that do so know what the Catholic Sacrament is and some that do so know exactly what each other is referring to - which is based on your limited experience (such as your family).

What I would say is that those who use the terms interchangeably do not fully understand the Catholic Sacrament because if they did they would not be using the terms interchangeably. They are *not *synonyms. Lots of Catholics use the term “Roman Catholic Church” to mean “Catholic Church, Latin Rite.” But they are using the term “Roman Catholic Church” incorrectly.

Disclaimer: I am *not *saying that I understand the Sacrament of Baptism fully; it’s actually the most difficult Sacrament for me to understand and I have a lot of learning to do before I understand it fully and I may have to wait until I am in heaven (through the grace, love, and most definitely the mercy of God) before I understand fully.

 

[LittleSoldier]

…perhaps that is why me and mine tend to use the phrase “community of believers” (as opposed to simply “community”). If someone can actually request baptism, then cognitive ability must be present in that person. If that person is not making or is not capable of making the request, then it is an odd means of inclusion within the body of believers…and it is “believers” that is used to describe the body so often in the NT…and no one is labelled as “baptized” in the NT who isn’t a believer…

It’s wonderful to be able to request to be baptised. My Mom was baptised on her deathbed at the age of 19. She was still taking classes to become a Catholic when she went into a diabetic coma and she was actually declared dead and shoved into an ambulance so hard she ended up with a head injury. I just wonder if she had “enough” understanding to believe when she was baptised while in a coma and not having completed those classes. She didn’t have the ability to request to be baptised as she was unconscious and in grave condition and her understanding of the Sacrament of Baptism and the Catholic Church was not thorough enough to allow her to receive the Sacrament as it would be given under normal circumstances. The request for her baptism was made by her roommate.

She wasn’t baptised twice. She was baptised as a member of the Catholic Church that night in the hospital as they waited for her to finally die and remain dead and she also received what was then called Extreme Unction (and is now called Sacrament of the Sick).

Did she believe “enough” for you to call her one of the community of believers?

 

[LittleSoldier]

That’s an example of “mikvah”…this isn’t baptism…it is an example of the “mikvah” ritual washing…a JEWISH ritual washing that was the precursor of Christian baptism …the “mikvah” was not “baptism”.

By John’s time I believe the Essenes practiced baptism…and it was adopted by the church as they were influenced by the Essenes.

I’d like to respond to this post a second time (and where is everybody, anyway? It’s time to get up, people! I’m on the West Coast of the U.S. and I’ve been up for hours already! Get with it!! )

Obviously the Essenes did not use the Trinitarian Formula when baptising as they were not Christian (one of my questions in post #706).

Do you have a link for a site which explains how the Church was influenced by the Essenes? So far I have found that they use what is called “immersion” but also “sprinkling” and they have several baptisms through life so I am a little confused. This is the website on which I found that:

uhl.ac/Baptism%20article/Baptism.pdf

A link or other reference would help me a lot. Thanks!

 

[Luvtosew]

It’s wonderful to be able to request to be baptised. My Mom was baptised on her deathbed at the age of 19. She was still taking classes to become a Catholic when she went into a diabetic coma and she was actually declared dead and shoved into an ambulance so hard she ended up with a head injury. I just wonder if she had “enough” understanding to believe when she was baptised while in a coma and not having completed those classes. She didn’t have the ability to request to be baptised as she was unconscious and in grave condition and her understanding of the Sacrament of Baptism and the Catholic Church was not thorough enough to allow her to receive the Sacrament as it would be given under normal circumstances. The request for her baptism was made by her roommate.

She wasn’t baptised twice. She was baptised as a member of the Catholic Church that night in the hospital as they waited for her to finally die and remain dead and she also received what was then called Extreme Unction (and is now called Sacrament of the Sick).

Did she believe “enough” for you to call her one of the community of believers?

Little Soldier, I’m sorry to hear about your Mom’s early passing , I believe shes a member of Christs family as I believe Christs knows the heart of people.

Babies of course do not know the meaning of baptism, but I always felt that was the place of cathechism to teach them, and also I believe that should be the purpose of Confirmation is a dedication to life to Christ (almost like a second type of Baptism) Older people getting baptised of course dedicate and accept Christ at baptism.

If someone is unable to comprehend Christ knows that.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Little Soldier, I’m sorry to hear about your Mom’s early passing , I believe shes a member of Christs family as I believe Christs knows the heart of people.

Babies of course do not know the meaning of baptism, but I always felt that was the place of cathechism to teach them, and also I believe that should be the purpose of Confirmation is a dedication to life to Christ (almost like a second type of Baptism) Older people getting baptised of course dedicate and accept Christ at baptism.

If someone is unable to comprehend Christ knows that.

Oh I am so sorry; it was obvious to me but of course it wasn’t obvious to anyone else. My apologies; I’m very sleepy and not communicating very well. My Mom passed on a few years ago and was over 80. She should have died when she was 19. There was no way to save her (perhaps it was the Baptism and Extreme Unction?). The lab in the hospital couldn’t test her blood because it was closed for the weekend! I’m glad things have improved, at least in that area. My grandfather got a telegram saying she was not expected to last the night and he hopped a train to get to her. We (her children) used to say “she takes a lickin’ but keeps on tickin’.” We had been waiting for her to pass on for at least twenty years before she did pass because she had horribly brittle Diabetes.

She remained a faithful Catholic. She never expressed a doubt about her faith in the Church. I love her very much and miss her but I know I will be with her again.

She was (and I’m sure still is) amazing.

From what I’ve read recently you’re right about Confirmation. It’s when that cognitive ability and understanding join so that one dedicates his/her life to God and His Church.

I’m very happy that I was baptised as an infant. My parents made the decision for me but they made it seriously and taught me the Catholic Faith as well as they could (I did leave for quite awhile but have been back for many years).

 

[Nevets]

This question is intended mainly for Protestants. When, exactly did the Catholic Church as we know it now cease to be the true Christian church? Back when I was Protestant, we always focused on the early Church (up to Augustine), and then skipped to Luther, Calvin, et al. When I started looking into it, I found that Augustine and a lot of the REALLY early Christians (Ireneus, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch) were very “Catholic,” especially compared to the reformers. Just out of curiosity, where do most Protestants draw the line (e.g. a certain council, pope, theologian, etc.) between the early Church and the “corrupt” Roman Catholic Church?

Hi ,as a non conformist Christian,the only bad church ,is a church that doe’s not keep the will of God,there is only one God,scripture says only Jesus is the way the truth the life,only through him can our sins be forgiven,Man shall not live by bread alone ,but by the word of God,see Ephesians 2 v 8 - 10 we are saved by grace, see also 1 John 4 v 1 - 3, you will know who is telling the truth by Gods word. .
it was approx 400 yrs ago that the Bible was translated into English when people read the word of God many were saved through his word,until we allow the Holy Spirit to work in our lives ,we do not realise our Salvation.God cannot lie,man doe’s and deceives,the Koran is one example of deception,God has no Son it says whoever believes this is a liar. although the moslems it appears are dictated to as I am lead to understand it thier book is written in Classical Arabic approx 1400 yrs ago,as Jesus said many will come as Bright shinning Angels to deceive if it were posible even the elect,as this happened through an Angel,who gave their book to them .So we must as John 1 says Test the spirits ,apparitions visitations with John 1 to see if they are who they appear to be ,otherwise this may well be a demon. and it is given to the people who cannot read the language have to rely on the high ups see fit to give it to them .so do not blame the people for their ignorance . teachers have a greater responsibility. The Church is the people . Pray and ask for guidance Jesus gives real peace .

 

[Nicea325]

that may be your explanation/excuse for why the NT connection between the acts of baptism and belief are so very strong, but the fact remains that it is the connection that exists…it is “believe and be baptized” and not “be born and be baptized”

hmmm…I wondered if this was in any way directed toward me:

…I see that it wasn’t…no surprise there.

let me know when you would like to engage in a more mature consideration of the matter…,I have entered into long and enjoyable discussions of Augustine’s view wrt the Eucharist with both Pneuma07 and Lyrikal…I would love a discussion of that quality on the matter that you raise…do you have it in yah?

I know what I said and Radical,I am not trying to offend you…seriously. However,I do sense some arrogance from you ,so please tome it down a bit. I am willing to hear your belief why you think the Eucharist is symbolic. I’ll hear your position and I will respect it. Peace

 

[Nicea325]

Mormons use the same line of logic that you are perusing. They do it all the time. Example: We all existed as spirit beings/ sons of god… prior to this human existence based on the fact that it does not specifically say otherwise in the Bible. … Same line of reasoning … Different subject.

It is not my concern or my goal to convince you. I presented the evidence … You rejected it … No big deal.

The Bible is clear and the transliteration of the Greek word for baptism is clear. If you think that something else is just as true because it is not specifically mentioned in the Bible, that is your choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
… No, But Jesus and Peter both gave those who were physically circumcised the opportunity to make a conscious decision to accept spiritual circumcision as well.

Nicea:
Oh but wait a minute…you said one must make a conscious-decision in order to be baptized…the ONLY method according to you and FULLY immersed,not buts or ifs. But you make exceptions for those already circumcised? Was their circumcision void according to your standards?

1voice:

You got an answer yet?

 

[Nicea325]

Hey Nicea325, I’m done with 1voice on this issue. He will never be able to answer the questions put to him because he can’t back up his view on this from the bible.
Nothing but pure opinion on his part…

Matthew

I hear you out.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Oh but wait a minute…you said one must make a conscious-decision in order to be baptized…the ONLY method according to you and FULLY immersed,not buts or ifs. But you make exceptions for those already circumcised? Was their circumcision void according to your standards?

Still waiting to hear the answer to this one. 1voice, ya there? What say you?

Me too…

 

[Ubenedictus]

I believe these differences are because of our different views to the same reality. One is covenatal the other stress particular…and excludes others it sound legalistic.

 

[1voice]

How do you know that "those that do so…know what the Catholic Sacrament is…and know exactly what each other is referring to?

) …
I was a Roman Catholic for 25 years. I grew up in a large extended Catholic family (hundreds of Catholics at family reunions) Close relatives were/ are Nuns and leaders in the Order of St Francis. My Grandmother made thousands of scapulars and I wore one like my life depended on it for years. Ive said the rosary more times than I can count My cousins are Leaders on the Diocesan Worship Committee… Grads with Masters degrees from top Catholic Universities. I was an alter boy for 5 years when Latin was the only way Mass was said. Attended many many novenas and Stations of the Cross. Confirmed by the Bishop. Confession every Friday and Fasted every Sunday before Communion… And we were dead meat if we even as much as got near a baloney sandwich on Friday. No Ice cream for Lent mind you!! My Dad was head of the parent teachers association at the Catholic school that I attended for 8 years… and went to Mass every school morning … and 4 years of CCD classes in High School.
I know that startling/ embarrassing sound of someone dropping a kneeler at a solemn high mass in the pew right behind me as well as I know my own name.

I realize that the expression is not used everywhere … but in the Catholic community that I grew up in … It was very common and everyone knew what was up. OOOOOOK!!!

And another thing! You are a very nice person!!! Please dont be like rest of them.

God bless you real good!