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faithalone1
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i would that all christians with FAITH make up the msytical body of christ. People can be Christian in name only too.
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Art321
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If you haven’t already, would you mind pointing out five things in your opinion that was needed for the Reformation to fix? Then I’ll try and explain every point from the Catholic point of view.
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Art321
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I agree with you on that. It truly is sad state of affairs.
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Lochias
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But no other denomination can trace their pedigree back 2000 years, unlike the Church. What we believe now is what the Apostles believed then, it can be proved, and it has been. Many, many times over.
Personally, having tried both ways, Protestantism wound up terrifying me. 30,000+ denominations, all claiming to have the best way, the true way, and no way to prove it. Chaos, utter and complete, with no room for peace or assurance or clear-cut disciplines and teachings that could be traced back to our Lord’s teachings themselves.
Sorry, not for me. I need all the help I can get on the road Home.
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onemangang
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Really, because The Eastern Orthodox Church claims that they are the One True Church and Rome is in schism. Protestant’s are just the splintering effect that came about when Rome left the One True Church!
I tend to not speak for the Eastern Orthodox Church, being that I am Catholic, and do not want to misrepresent them, but you seem to have no problem speaking falsely, on their behalf.
I will let the Eastern Orthodox speak for themselves in this link below!
ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_one_true_church
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Art321
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This is very true and perhaps I wasn’t very clear in pointing this out in my other post. My apologies.
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1voice
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The Catholic Church went bad during the times when the people that held authority rejected Christ and Christianity in favor of the corruption that came from their own will. The Medici Popes and Leo X who,according to his own closest assistant, mocked Christianity … are good illustrations. During these periods in Catholic Church history those that resisted the corruption were treated as the enemy. As a result, powerless to be heard and heeded, sometimes for centuries … some decided that the best way to deal with the corruption was to simply get away from the infection. Much as people in the era of the plagues would move to the country to avoid infection. In some cases it was these breaks in the structure that caused the Catholic Church to take a good look at itself and clean house. That usually took time and those that had moved on were well established by then and in no frame of mind to trust the institution that had betrayed them … and in most cases they had such a bad taste in their mouths because of the conflict that they had no need or desire to revisit old wounds or to try and unscramble eggs.
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Lochias
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A great pity, then, that they threw out the baby with the bathwater and left the full deposit of Faith that remains in the trust of the Church. Rather like getting one bad hamburger, then disavowing them for life and moving on to mere peanut butter sandwiches.
Edit: It’s actually more like being served a hamburger by a member of the restaurant staff that wasn’t as trained as well as one would hope, and giving up on the entire chain due to one bad experience, really. Yup. Peanut butter sandwiches. Poor Protestants. 'specially the ones who’ve never had a juicy burger and don’t know what they’ve been missing for hundreds of years.
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1voice
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Or, conversely, like escaping from an terribly abusive guardian that chose evil and had no respect or concern for the souls in its charge.
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Eric_Hilbert
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I realize threads like this can become very passionate.
Let’s remember charity and respect toward the other in our posts.
Let’s remember charity and respect toward the other in our posts.
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Bballer32
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You asked why the Bishop of Rome was head. Obviously someone had to head it. That’s why there are parallels in the Old Testament, which is what the gospels use COUNTLESS times, to tell us what God had planned all along.
What about Isaiah 22:20-22. That’s basically stating the same thing that Jesus told Peter. Isaiah is telling David that he will find his servent eliakim and give him the keys to the house of David. (keys meaning authority). What ever door he shuts, no one shall close, whichever door he opens, no one shall shut. (Binding and Loosing.)
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Publisher
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To me I would ask…“When did the Episcopal church go bad?” “When did the Methodist church go bad?” “When did the Moravian church go bad?”…the Catholic church is just a simialar sect within Christian belief with no “divine” authortity to decide for any group of Christians what they are to beleive.
Not sure the Catholic church went “bad”…it’s innovations and doctrinal stance doesn’t “speak to my condition”…it never was the “one true church”…it was a confederation of like minded congregations which consolidated under a group of leaders…it became the dominant “form” of Christianity early on and joined forces with the Roman government…it’s rise to acendency between the competing groups was more due to “political expediency” than “theological truth”…it’s claim to be “Christ’s only true church” is one of it’s theological tenets, which I simply do not believe…I’m more concerned with the direction of the religious group I belong to is going and how I can influene it than what direction the Catholic church goes…unless it seeks to impact my own spirituality by dictating what I must beleive or influcence the political milieu to enforce it’s doctrinal and moral precepts beyond it’s influence into the secular.
While it…along with the Orthodox…was the dominant “version” of Christianity for the first millenia…the fact that it “split” into two separate groups to me proves more to me it’s very human organization than a “divine” organization…if either the Orthodox or Catholic churches were the “one true church”, there would never have been a separation over something looking back across history over something so “trivial”…that there are many sects of Christianity…of which both the Orthodox and Catholic churches are simply some of the oldest sects…they are sects of Christianity none the less…larger…older…more entrenched linger in their own political struggles than are Mennonites, Nazarenes, Angicans, Lutherans, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists and Friends…doesn’t mean it’s any more “true”…despite it’s claims.
I hold no contempt for the Catholic church…nor it’s members…we are members of the same mystical Body of Christ when we follow Christ and love our neighbor as ourselves.
When did it go “bad”? It’s just another organization of religous people wanting…claiming to speak for God…He can speak for Himself I think…and hearing His Voice is a very difficult thing to do and accomplish…how “clearly” any group claims to hear the Voice of God to me is proved on how any religious group treats it’s neighbor, how the poor are ministered to, the hungry are fed, those in prison are visited, the widows are cared for and how closely it’s members “seek justice, show mercy and walk humbly with their God.”
Not sure the Catholic church went “bad”…it’s innovations and doctrinal stance doesn’t “speak to my condition”…it never was the “one true church”…it was a confederation of like minded congregations which consolidated under a group of leaders…it became the dominant “form” of Christianity early on and joined forces with the Roman government…it’s rise to acendency between the competing groups was more due to “political expediency” than “theological truth”…it’s claim to be “Christ’s only true church” is one of it’s theological tenets, which I simply do not believe…I’m more concerned with the direction of the religious group I belong to is going and how I can influene it than what direction the Catholic church goes…unless it seeks to impact my own spirituality by dictating what I must beleive or influcence the political milieu to enforce it’s doctrinal and moral precepts beyond it’s influence into the secular.
While it…along with the Orthodox…was the dominant “version” of Christianity for the first millenia…the fact that it “split” into two separate groups to me proves more to me it’s very human organization than a “divine” organization…if either the Orthodox or Catholic churches were the “one true church”, there would never have been a separation over something looking back across history over something so “trivial”…that there are many sects of Christianity…of which both the Orthodox and Catholic churches are simply some of the oldest sects…they are sects of Christianity none the less…larger…older…more entrenched linger in their own political struggles than are Mennonites, Nazarenes, Angicans, Lutherans, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists and Friends…doesn’t mean it’s any more “true”…despite it’s claims.
I hold no contempt for the Catholic church…nor it’s members…we are members of the same mystical Body of Christ when we follow Christ and love our neighbor as ourselves.
When did it go “bad”? It’s just another organization of religous people wanting…claiming to speak for God…He can speak for Himself I think…and hearing His Voice is a very difficult thing to do and accomplish…how “clearly” any group claims to hear the Voice of God to me is proved on how any religious group treats it’s neighbor, how the poor are ministered to, the hungry are fed, those in prison are visited, the widows are cared for and how closely it’s members “seek justice, show mercy and walk humbly with their God.”
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Bballer32
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Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.
Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.
Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ’s representative on earth.
Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.
Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.
Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.
Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.
Acts 5:15 - Peter’s shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.
Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.
Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon’s quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.
Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.
Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.
Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.
Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).
Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the “whole Church” offered “earnest prayers” for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.
Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.
Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church’s first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.
Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter’s definitive teaching.
Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter’s definitive teaching. “Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited…”
Here is only a few of the passages from scripture!
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David
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This is a great question. If I were a Protestant I would avoid the question. If I answer that the the Catholic Church was corrupt before the Bible was canonized, I am forced to admit I follow a Bible that may be corrupt too.
If I believe the canon of Scripture is infallible (without error), then I should admit the Catholic Church was infallible when they declared the canon.
When I realize there is no way to prove when the Church went corrupt, I am forced to admit that maybe it never actually went corrupt at all.
Thanks for asking the question.
Peace
David
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Cursilista
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Jesus said that his church, which we believe was started on pentecost, would be visible and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Therefore his church should be known, and have been existing since the year 33 ad. No hidden christian sect would qualify, no loosely held body of believers would qualify. So the question would be, how do you reconcile with Jesus’s own words on this matter. Name the church that has a proven existance, that meets the criteria. The first use of the term Catholic was around the year 80 AD. Therefore all Christians, who followed the teachings from the seat of Peter were known as Catholics.
Regardless if leaders of the church were corrupted over time, the church and its teachings remained intact. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against it. He didnt say that Satan would not try. The leaders of the church are men and all men are sinners.
Most Protestants try to rationalize their particular religion by denying history. Jesus wanted his apostles to spread the gospel throughout the world. The Roman Empire was the Political system of the known world at that time. The Church was persecuted by this political system for hundreds of years and still was able to spread. Eventually the leader of the Roman empire accepted Christianity and made it the state religion. This helped christianity spread even quicker and reached even more people.
Christianity has had to exist within differing political systems, in different countries, from the begining. Im sure the leaders of the church has had to work within the politicial systems of their day in order to exist. This dosent mean that the truths of the faith were marginialized or corrupted.
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Publisher
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Those of us who do not see the Catholic church as God’s true and only church do not deny it has physical presence in this world…where the poor are cared for…the lost sought…mercy and compassion displayed…“where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in their midst”…a very real people…God’s Church is found whereever His People gather…very visible…very real…not invisible at all.
THe question was when did the Catholic church go bad?..doesn’t matter to me “when”…it is a man-made organization through which God’s People worked for centuries…even to this day…it is not the ONLY organizatin through which the Church works and ministers…the Church was established on Pentecost through the baptism of the Holy Spirit…at least in Acts…in John Jesus “breathed upon them…” and they received the Holy Spirit…God’s People are where they meet in His Name and love one another…“by this shall all men know you are my disciples, that you love one another.”…not “what organization do you belong to”.
We differ…you believe the organization you belong to is the Church in and of itself…I don’t…it doesn’t matter when the organization which became known as the Catholic church went “bad”…all that matters to me is that He is served and obeyed as members of His True Church should…and love one another…on the Last Day, the King won’t ask “were you baptized” or "were you a member of the Catholic church?..but “I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was in prison and you did not…”
My “circle” surrounds you as a brother or sister in Christ…it matters not if yours surrounds me…when did the Catholic church go bad? I don’t know…it’s an earthly organization with all the failings of any organization, led by fallible humans…the gates of hell will never stop God’s Church…organizations may fail…but His Church will endure…“where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in their midst”. In His Presence is where we find unity…not who’s name is on the meetinghouse we meet to worship in…His Church is found among those who meet to worship and serve this world He loved and gave Himself for.
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Nicea325
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Sorry,but the Catholic Church did not make Christianity the state religion. Rome also did not legalize Christianity,but Constantine the Great did in 313 with the Edict of Milan. A Roman emperor by the name of Theodosius made it the state relgion.
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Nicea325
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You still refuse to ACCEPT what scripture says clearly about the church. It is the MYSTICAL BODY OF CHRIST not just some “thing” there for mere attendance. You are making yourself the Judge of Divine Revelation and making God your student.
Theocracy? Where on earth do you get your information? No offense,but you have a lot to learn what the CC truly teaches and not just repeat what you have heard or have misunderstood what the CC teaches.
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Dominique1234
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There was never a ‘corrupt’ Catholic Church. Only some people within it, as it is still today. Just like any other protestant denomination, there’s fault in human beings, whether we like it or not. Although, the Pope’s infallibility when it comes to Dogma, that’s a complete other story. The Holy Spirit sure works wonders.
But on a personal level, just like every other human being, the Pope can still sin.Disunity amongst christian faiths will never end until one opens their minds, hearts, and being to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18).
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Dominique1234
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