Protestants, when did the Catholic Church go bad?

[LittleSoldier]

Sorry, should have said more about myself but I wouldnt want to be accused of being immodest

I wouldn’t worry about that, if I were you. With all due respect, many can boast of their education but those who are really educated are aware that they are even more ignorant. After all, Jesus, who was fully man, probably didn’t even have a high school diploma. And my Mom, the most educated person I have ever known, only stepped foot in a university when she was waiting for me one evening.

I started studying theology at tertiary level 16 years ago, since then I have completed my Bachelor of Theology (Majors in Biblical Studies and Theology), Diploma of Ministry, Master of Arts (Early Christian and Jewish Studies), and Master of Theology (Biblical Studies).

There are three levels of education in my country (Australia) - Primary (K-6), Secondary (7-12) and any university or college education is tertiary.

Yes, I have also studied Koine Greek, Latin, Aramaic, Coptic, Ugaritic and some Akkadian

Do you consider yourself to be an expert in these areas?

Further the Early Christian and Jewish studies was foccussed between the years 300 BC and c. 450 AD so it included an indepth look at saints and scholars such as Jerome as well as from the Biblical studies major which necessarily involves textual criticism.

Do you consider yourself to be an expert in this area?

 

[JonNC]

=Watchman1091;9040236]Well, from what I’ve learned through prayer, reading the Bible and research, I’ve just discovered a “works” salvation. Yes, faith without works are dead, but nothing we do of ourselves is worthy enough to inherit the kingdom of God. That’s why we trust Jesus’ righteousness and allow Him to work in us, so that no one can boast (James 2:14,18, 24, 26)

Pretty much agree.

Mary veneration (which could be considered idolatry, since Jesus is the only mediator and the only One we should pray to/only way to Heaven) (1 Timothy 2:5, Colissians 1:19-20, Matthew 13:55-56, Mark 6:3, John 14:6). I believe Mary, after the birth of Jesus, went on to have other children with Joseph. (Matthew 12: 46-50, Luke 8:19). I also believe she was not bodily ascended into heaven. She even claimed she needed a savior. (Luke 1:46-55)

Just to be clear (and I don’t practice invocation of the Blessed Virgin and the saints), this is no different. catholics ask those in the Church Triumphant to pray for them - that’s what intercessory prayer is. If it is truly veneration, by definition it isn’t idolatry. No one questions she needed a savior.

The interpretation of the Last Supper could be dangerous, since Catholics and others believe the bread and wine to be the literal body and blood of Christ (since Christ would never say for us to eat blood, and there is only one Christ; not many of Him; the “Protestant” and “Fundamentalist” view is that it is a representation that we are to keep symbolizing His death.

Christ’s words could not be clearer: *While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, *“Take and eat; this is my body.” ** 27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins

Calling the Pope and other Priests “father”, when the Bible says not to call any man father, for there is only one Father, in Heaven. (Matthew 23:9)

What should i have called my dad?

No one can forgive sins, but God. Confessing sins to one another is good, but I’ve heard that some people think the priests can actually forgive ones sins, when only God can.

Priests (and Lutheran pastors) do not believe that they, of their own power, can forgive sins. They act by Christ’s authority, here: “I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Purgatory is not in the bible, and we shouldn’t pray/call upon the dead (necromancy) (even dead saints, since they are men too). (Leviticus 19:31, Leviticus 20:27, 1 Timothy 4:1, etc.)

While I don’t practice invocational prayer of the saints, it isn’t necromancy!

I don’t think all traditions are bad, but when they get in the way of the Word/commandments, it is.

The idolatry is the sinful part. The “nullifying the Word of God for your own traditions” is sinful as well. Pray on these things. Your thoughts?

My thought is this, it seems important to me that, to be sure we truly disagree with Catholic teaching, we need to be sure we understand that teaching.

Jon

 

[Nicea325]

False assumption. Most Protestants of my acquaintance don’t think the Catholic Church “went bad” so much as that all particular churches are prone to error. The problem from our perspective is that you guys have locked yourselves into a position where you can’t fully acknowledge your errors (though this accusation is often made too broadly–I recognize that many Catholics do find ways to acknowledge the flaws of the historic institution calling itself the “Catholic Church” while still upholding Catholic doctrine). It isn’t necessarily that you have any more errors than anyone else (obviously many Protestants think you do, but not all).

Edwin

False generalization about all Catholics. Not all Catholics have locked ourselves into a position where we cannot acknowledge our errors.

 

[Nicea325]

“one group on the people’s crusade was supposedly being led by a duck (or goose) that they thought was infused with the Holy Spirit. Anyway, I can’t find anything more about what Peter [the Hermit] thought he was going to accomplish, aside from the vague notion that by showing up in Jerusalem they would convert all the Muslims and restore Christian rule to the Holy Land. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)”

taken from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 September 7

Wikipedia is not the most reliable source…for your information.

 

[Contarini]

False generalization about all Catholics. Not all Catholics have locked ourselves into a position where we cannot acknowledge our errors.

And I explicitly said this in the post you quoted. I’m simply stating that this is the major objection moderate/liberal Protestants have to Catholicism. In other words, you guys are used to fundamentalists who think Catholicism “went bad,” but in fact this perception of “inability to acknowledge the kinds of errors all churches fall into” is the issue that needs to be addressed.

I think there is some truth to this objection, but as I said I think it’s often made too broadly–or as you said, it’s not a fair generalization about all Catholics.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

"one group on the people’s crusade was supposedly being led by a duck (or goose) that they thought was infused with the Holy Spirit.

In other words, you engaged in a reprehensible caricature and you should apologize to the Catholics on the forum.

Your statement is equivalent to Catholics taking an exaggerated account of what some TV preacher supposedly did and making a blanket statement about all Protestants on that basis.

Edwin

 

[AbideWithMe]

False assumption. Most Protestants of my acquaintance don’t think the Catholic Church “went bad” so much as that all particular churches are prone to error. The problem from our perspective is that you guys have locked yourselves into a position where you can’t fully acknowledge your errors (though this accusation is often made too broadly–I recognize that many Catholics do find ways to acknowledge the flaws of the historic institution calling itself the “Catholic Church” while still upholding Catholic doctrine). It isn’t necessarily that you have any more errors than anyone else (obviously many Protestants think you do, but not all).

Edwin

The (now retired from being a Bishop) Anglican N.T. Wright said something to a group of his students along the lines of “At least twenty percent of what I’m going to teach you is probably wrong. I just don’t know which is that twenty percent.” When I first read that, I had to laugh, but I think that it’s human nature to be mostly unaware of our errors, though they surely exist. The best I can do on a person level is acknowledge that some of my most strongly held beliefs may be wrong, and may or may not be corrected in this life.

On an institutional level, I don’t think the Catholic Church “went bad”. I don’t think it has any more errors than any other church, and I suppose it has less than many Protestant churches.

 

[CarterJoe]

What church hasnt had its fair share of corruption? It happens and we shouldnt dwell on things of the past but live in the now.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The time when the Church went bad is when Judas betrayed our Master,then our shepherd was struck, Peter denied Jesus 3 times, all the other disciples left Jesus alone, except his Mother and John the beloved.

It took Jesus to suffer, die and resurrect in order for Peter to come back and confirm his brethren in the resurrection.

Can protestants reveal when the church has ever suffered this badly or fallen this badly as when it first did, when the Church went so bad in the first century in all of history, so as to repeat such a disaster in Church history?

I don’t know of any worst time when the Church went as bad as when the disciples betrayed, denied and left Jesus to suffer and die without them.

 

[Nicea325]

And I explicitly said this in the post you quoted. I’m simply stating that this is the major objection moderate/liberal Protestants have to Catholicism. In other words, you guys are used to fundamentalists who think Catholicism “went bad,” but in fact this perception of “inability to acknowledge the kinds of errors all churches fall into” is the issue that needs to be addressed.

I think there is some truth to this objection, but as I said I think it’s often made too broadly–or as you said, it’s not a fair generalization about all Catholics.

Edwin

I comprehend what you are saying.

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by faithalone1
Jesus Christ establised his church when he sent the “advocate” (Holy Spirit) as described in ACTS. has nothing to do with Succession. The Apostles were the foundation. They were a fufillment of OT prophecy and there is NO evidence that they had Successors. The only thing passed down were teachings, not some special divine right establishing a “true” church.

Wrong! No evidence? What about Titus and Timothy? And there is NO evidence Apostolic Succession was forbidden…anywhere. More important, how can teachings continue and yet not have any teachers or successors? How strange you find it impossible for God to have human successors within His Church;however, I bet you have no issues about successors in other human institutions? Does your church not have a pastor?

 

[christosdavid]

I wouldn’t worry about that, if I were you. With all due respect, many can boast of their education but those who are really educated are aware that they are even more ignorant. After all, Jesus, who was fully man, probably didn’t even have a high school diploma. And my Mom, the most educated person I have ever known, only stepped foot in a university when she was waiting for me one evening.
Do you consider yourself to be an expert in these areas?

Do you consider yourself to be an expert in this area?

enough to know that the Hebrew says He and not she… is that good enough? I hope my High Distinction gets me some cred…

 

[christosdavid]

Wikipedia is not the most reliable source…for your information.

I realise this, but the previous poster didnt even know that the duck existed… quack!

 

[christosdavid]

In other words, you engaged in a reprehensible caricature and you should apologize to the Catholics on the forum.

Your statement is equivalent to Catholics taking an exaggerated account of what some TV preacher supposedly did and making a blanket statement about all Protestants on that basis.

Edwin

actually, its demonstrating that the faith and practise of the CC at the time was, to say the least,** bizarre and superstitious **- which is where the CC went “bad” as per the thread… It also cost 60,000 peasant lives who thought they were doing what the pope and God wanted them to do, until they were massacred…

besides, if one were to ask where protestants went wrong, televangelists would be high on the list…

 

[Cat_Herder]

actually, its demonstrating that the faith and practise of the CC at the time was, to say the least,** bizarre and superstitious **- which is where the CC went “bad” as per the thread… It also cost 60,000 peasant lives who thought they were doing what the pope and God wanted them to do, until they were massacred…

Fighting Islamofascist terrorism is anything but bizarre and superstitious. You really need to study the history of the Middle East and in particular who started the conflict generally known as the Crusades.

 

[christosdavid]

Fighting Islamofascist terrorism is anything but bizarre and superstitious. You really need to study the history of the Middle East and in particular who started the conflict generally known as the Crusades.

fightings not bizarre, nor is the pope asking people to go… whats bizarre is following a duck and whats superstitious is believing the duck was infused with the Holy Spirit…

 

[christosdavid]

I suggest for another thread what protestants actually like about the CC - this is very divisive for the CHURCH OF GOD which we all belong to…

 

[LittleSoldier]

not many people have heard of the duck but it was the leader of the first european section of the 1st crusade…

And Church dogma states that a “sacred duck” will lead Catholics on a crusade?

Please provide Catholic Church dogma which states that the faithful shall worship (or even have belief in) a sacred duck (or goose) which is infused with the Holy Spirit.

 

[LittleSoldier]

enough to know that the Hebrew says He and not she… is that good enough? I hope my High Distinction gets me some cred…

Well, to be honest, it’s not really good enough. You didn’t even answer my question. I’m not sure what “cred” or “[your] High Distinction” means, but context is extremely important, as is the way Hebrew was used in whatever document was used in order to determine what should be placed in the bible by the Catholic Church. Gender titles can be tricky. God Himself has no gender although He is referred to as “He.” And there are those who argue that in English, “he” is gender neutral in some cases but not in others - what about the Hebrew used in that document?

It’s really beyond the scope of this thread and would probably make a good topic for a dissertation. To fully explain it here would require a tome. IMHO.

I mean no disrespect to you. I know a little about education and the most important thing I learned in college (B.S., B.A., M.A., R.E.H.S., accepted into medical school, planned on a Ph.D. but was badly injured and am now disabled) is that I am remarkably ignorant and often wish for the faith of a child.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I suggest for another thread what protestants actually like about the CC - this is very divisive for the CHURCH OF GOD which we all belong to…

Why don’t you start one? But please remember this is a Catholic forum and as such, most members are probably aware that Jesus founded the Catholic Church (and was not incompetent or lying or joking when He did so).

A catholic Church is the goal. But I have a hard time believing that Satanists and some pagans belong to what you term the “CHURCH OF GOD.” Are you including them?