Protestants, when did the Catholic Church go bad?

[Cat_Herder]

Well, not that a thumbs up from me means much, Publisher, but…

“It is only by His astounding grace and mercy we have any hope at all…” —how very true.

The thing that we keep trying to express here is that if “It is only by His astounding grace and mercy we have any hope at all” to be saved then something other than “His astounding grace and mercy” cannot be the means of initial justification/salvation.

Looking at 1voice’s post again:

Faith comes by hearing “the Word of God”
Jesus is described in the Bible as “the Word of God”

If a person hears Jesus and obeys… then he is exercising faith (which pleases God) … If faith is present it is because a person believes what is right and is holding fast to that which is good… and rejecting that which is wrong.

1voice is stating that a person’s actions in life–believing or doing the right things–is what pleases God. If that was all there was to it then salvation is not an unmerited gift but the result of the choices that we make, in which case Jesus has nothing to do with it except being a nice rabbi Who tells us what to do.

That doesn’t sound right to me. The correct understanding is that what 1voice describes are responses to grace, not things we do to earn our salvation. And I know that’s not what 1voice meant, but that is what happens when people start conflating faith and grace as if they are the same thing. They aren’t.

 

[AbideWithMe]

The thing that we keep trying to express here is that if “It is only by His astounding grace and mercy we have any hope at all” to be saved then something other than “His astounding grace and mercy” cannot be the means of initial justification/salvation.

Looking at 1voice’s post again:

1voice is stating that a person’s actions in life–believing or doing the right things–is what pleases God. If that was all there was to it then salvation is not an unmerited gift but the result of the choices that we make, in which case Jesus has nothing to do with it except being a nice rabbi Who tells us what to do.

That doesn’t sound right to me. The correct understanding is that what 1voice describes are responses to grace, not things we do to earn our salvation. And I know that’s not what 1voice meant, but that is what happens when people start conflating faith and grace as if they are the same thing. They aren’t.

Hi Cat Herder (I like your name)—

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say or who you mean to be addressing. Could you please clarify?

 

[Cat_Herder]

Hi Cat Herder (I like your name)—

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say or who you mean to be addressing. Could you please clarify?

I am the one who is befuddled actually. I can’t figure out what the last five or so posts say. They sound good but are soteriologically unintelligible.

Maybe you could explain to us the difference between faith and grace?

 

[AbideWithMe]

Hmm…time for bed for me, Cat Herder, after I feed my beasts (which include two cats who like to hang out right among the horses in the pasture, as if they’re small herd members…I suppose the cats are hoping for little field mice to be disturbed by the horses, but I always have to laugh at the incongruity in size between the cats and the rest of their “herd-mates” grazing around them…maybe cats can be herded after all)

I suspect we’re talking past each other? Maybe 1voice was implying something that confuses faith with grace?—I don’t know…I’m not aware of anything I wrote that carried that kind of confusion, but I’ll re-read the last several posts again tomorrow.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Hmm…time for bed for me, Cat Herder, after I feed my beasts (which include two cats who like to hang out right among the horses in the pasture, as if they’re small herd members…I suppose the cats are hoping for little field mice to be disturbed by the horses, but I always have to laugh at the incongruity in size between the cats and the rest of their “herd-mates” grazing around them…maybe cats can be herded after all)

I suspect we’re talking past each other? Maybe 1voice was implying something that confuses faith with grace?—I don’t know…I’m not aware of anything I wrote that carried that kind of confusion, but I’ll re-read the last several posts again tomorrow.

That’s how I’m interpreting it. Then again, I never saw anything approaching a clear distinction between faith and grace as a Protestant. It was always “faith alone through grace alone” but you had to manifest that faith through an altar call or something for it to count–you had to do something. That’s a contradiction, and that is my point.

To sum up: Grace is free, the primary means of grace are the Sacraments, you don’t have to say or do something yourself to be eligible for salvation, and that’s why babies are baptized.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Hi Cat Herder–

Hmm…I’m still kind of lost as to what you have in mind as regards this thread. Other than possibly in the post from 1voice, I didn’t think we were really talking about faith, grace, or salvation.

CMatt25’s post went back to post #369, which in turn, I wrote because of post#362. Does that help clear things up?

I know I’m quite often not a very clear communicator, and I’m also sorry if I’m misunderstanding you here.

 

[JonNC]

That’s how I’m interpreting it. Then again, I never saw anything approaching a clear distinction between faith and grace as a Protestant. It was always **“faith alone through grace alone” **but you had to manifest that faith through an altar call or something for it to count–you had to do something. That’s a contradiction, and that is my point.

To sum up: Grace is free, the primary means of grace are the Sacraments, you don’t have to say or do something yourself to be eligible for salvation, and that’s why babies are baptized.

Actually, Cat, it is “by grace alone through faith alone”. As for an altar call the only time I’ve ever seen one is on tv, like the Billy Graham crusades (at least I think that’s what they mean by an “altar call”).

And I agree with your summation regarding grace, the means of grace.

Jon

 

[LittleSoldier]

Actually, Cat, it is “by grace alone through faith alone”. As for an altar call the only time I’ve ever seen one is on tv, like the Billy Graham crusades (at least I think that’s what they mean by an “altar call”).

And I agree with your summation regarding grace, the means of grace.

Jon

Now I’m afraid I am the one who is befuddled. Please forgive my ignorance. I’ve never been a Protestant. It’s my understanding that *sola fide *is at least part of the base that supports the framework of some Protestant sects. To me, *sola fide *means “faith alone” and that means we are saved only through our faith. And that means that a large segment of the earth’s population is not allowed to enter heaven because they do not believe in the Judaeo-Christian God. And some people have never even heard of Jesus. Are they just out of luck?

I’ve heard some Protestants say that if one has faith one performs good works. But what if one has faith but doesn’t perform good works? Is that possible? It seems to me that it would be. What if one has faith but then loses it? Is that person still saved?

I hope I’m not going off-topic; perhaps I am but it’s because I’m confused. It’s clear to me that Jesus (who is God) founded the Catholic Church and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (as Jesus is God and omniscient He would know). It really seems strange that God would form a Church, say that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it and then the gates of hell prevail against it. It means God is not omniscient but that is part of the essence of the Being of God. What am I missing?

Oh, one last thing: I’ve never even heard of “altar call!”

 

[LittleSoldier]

Hmm…time for bed for me, Cat Herder, after I feed my beasts (which include two cats who like to hang out right among the horses in the pasture, as if they’re small herd members…I suppose the cats are hoping for little field mice to be disturbed by the horses, but I always have to laugh at the incongruity in size between the cats and the rest of their “herd-mates” grazing around them…maybe cats can be herded after all)

I’ve got six cats and a border collie. Trust me, cats can’t be herded. And neither can I, although my border tried several times (she nipped me on the calf, seriously, no pun intended).

If you (or Cat Herder) find out they can be herded, please let me know. I’ve got some serious alpha-cat problems going on and can use all the help I can get (maybe borders are the wrong breed or maybe I need cats that look like sheep).

This is way-off topic but today someone told me about a heeler that was being tested on cattle. One of the cows kicked the heeler and she flew backward, flipped around in mid-air, and landed, stunned. Then she slowly stood up, shook her head and then took off after the cow. She bit that cow’s back leg (its calf?) until she drew blood and then this (relatively) small dog chased the cow all over the place. She had passed the test and was worth six men on horseback. I wish I had seen that!

I now return this thread back to its original topic.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I’ve got six cats and a border collie. Trust me, cats can’t be herded. And neither can I, although my border tried several times (she nipped me on the calf, seriously, no pun intended).

If you (or Cat Herder) find out they can be herded, please let me know. I’ve got some serious alpha-cat problems going on and can use all the help I can get (maybe borders are the wrong breed or maybe I need cats that look like sheep).

This is way-off topic but today someone told me about a heeler that was being tested on cattle. One of the cows kicked the heeler and she flew backward, flipped around in mid-air, and landed, stunned. Then she slowly stood up, shook her head and then took off after the cow. She bit that cow’s back leg (its calf?) until she drew blood and then this (relatively) small dog chased the cow all over the place. She had passed the test and was worth six men on horseback. I wish I had seen that!

I now return this thread back to its original topic.

Use a mouse. A computer mouse with a USB cord. Hold the body of the mouse so that the cable plug drags on the ground and makes a nice high pitched noise. The cats will follow you wherever you go. If they stop following then move the cable behind your leg. Drag and drop the kitties to the desired location.

 

[1voice]

Originally Posted by mitex
Open communion is where any baptized Christian can take part in Eucharist… The Episcopal and Anglican Churches practice it (mostly) and many protestant sects as well…

Whereas in the Catholic Church only Catholics may partake in communion… Open communion is more in line with Jesus’ love.

What is the logic in your question? Jesus gave freely of all of God’s provision to all that responded. He fed people, he healed people … I dont ever remember him asking what religion a person professed before he acted. He simply asked … What do you want … and then encouraged people to receive by admonitions such as “fear not…only believe”
He said that it was better than food to have blessed the Samaritan woman at the well. And he demonstrated his giving, loving nature toward people of all religions when he told the story of the good Samaritan.
He said … come to me all who labor and are heavy laden … and I will give you rest. It was as clear as an open invitation can be.

Cornelius and his entire household were given Baptism in the Holy Spirit … Just because he did the right thing and had an open heart.

Jesus said … “Freely you have received … Freely give!”

Think about it … It is perfectly OK for Nancy Pelosi … Who has done everything in her power for her entire career to abort millions of babies … Can receive Communion on any day of the week … But a devout Non Denominational Christian … that despises abortion and fights with all her heart against Nancy Pelosi’s crusade to kill babies … is turned away from the Communion table.

 

[CMatt25]

Here’s the problem I see with that. 1voice and others are responding to Christ’s call. They profess HIm Lord and Savior as do Catholics. All professed Christians have a unity in belief in Him as their Lord and Savior. Christ Himself in Jn 6:37 said, “I will never turn away anyone who comes to me.” (The Good News translation). If one is called by the Father to come and receive the Son and they discern how He sacrificed His body on the cross for us all, then it is my belief they should not be turned away.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Use a mouse. A computer mouse with a USB cord. Hold the body of the mouse so that the cable plug drags on the ground and makes a nice high pitched noise. The cats will follow you wherever you go. If they stop following then move the cable behind your leg. Drag and drop the kitties to the desired location.

Thank you for such a clever (and funny) solution! I’ve found that a dog whistle works on some cats but it isn’t effective on most ( I have one cat that comes running as fast as she can when she hears it).

“Drag…the kitties…!”

 

[LittleSoldier]

Pelosi should be denied the Eucharist. If she has done what the other poster has claimed she has excommunicated herself (excommunication ex latae sententiae) and is only allowed to access the Sacrament of Reconciliation. You’re right - she is receiving unworthily which is a grave act in itself (whether it is a mortal sin is not for me to decide).

Very good post. Thank you.

 

[JonNC]

=LittleSoldier;9059820]Now I’m afraid I am the one who is befuddled. Please forgive my ignorance. I’ve never been a Protestant. It’s my understanding that *sola fide *is at least part of the base that supports the framework of some Protestant sects.

Luther said that it is on the doctrine of justification which the Church stands or falls, so yes, but I do not consider Lutheranism a sect.

To me, *sola fide *means “faith alone” and that means we are saved only through our faith. And that means that a large segment of the earth’s population is not allowed to enter heaven because they do not believe in the Judaeo-Christian God. And some people have never even heard of Jesus. Are they just out of luck?

It is by grace through faith alone that we access justification. That is what the “fide” means in sola fide.
But the beginning part of all this is Grace. No one is saved wiothout Grace. As for that large segment of the population, on Earth we know of no way of attaining salvation without grace through faith. But God is merciful and just, and just like the infant or preborn that never has the chance to be baptized, we trust in His mercy.

I’ve heard some Protestants say that if one has faith one performs good works. But what if one has faith but doesn’t perform good works? Is that possible? It seems to me that it would be. What if one has faith but then loses it? Is that person still saved?

Luther’s words speak to this better than mine, from his commentary on Galatians 5:6:

VERSE 6. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

I hope I’m not going off-topic; perhaps I am but it’s because I’m confused. It’s clear to me that Jesus (who is God) founded the Catholic Church and that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (as Jesus is God and omniscient He would know). It really seems strange that God would form a Church, say that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it and then the gates of hell prevail against it. It means God is not omniscient but that is part of the essence of the Being of God. What am I missing?

From my perspective, there are 2 things which you’ve missed. 1) The gates of hell has not, cannot, and will not prevail against His Church, not we in the Church Militant, and certainly not the Church Triumphant. For the gates of Hell to prevail, Satan would have to prevail in Heaven - no chance! 2) The Church Militant is more than just those in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Lutherans are part of His Church Catholic every bit as much as Catholics, or Orthodox.

Oh, one last thing: I’ve never even heard of “altar call!”

You’ll have to ask those that have this as part of their tradition.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Jharek,
There is very little here to disagree with regarding close, closed, and open communion.

And while not speaking specifically about Matt or 1voice (since I don’t know their views on baptism), I have heard some say this about open communion, but will then deny baptism to infants, and the irony perplexes me.

Jon

 

[LittleSoldier]

Originally Posted by mitex
Open communion is where any baptized Christian can take part in Eucharist… The Episcopal and Anglican Churches practice it (mostly) and many protestant sects as well…

Whereas in the Catholic Church only Catholics may partake in communion… Open communion is more in line with Jesus’ love.

What is the logic in your question? Jesus gave freely of all of God’s provision to all that responded. He fed people, he healed people … I dont ever remember him asking what religion a person professed before he acted. He simply asked … What do you want … and then encouraged people to receive by admonitions such as “fear not…only believe”
He said that it was better than food to have blessed the Samaritan woman at the well. And he demonstrated his giving, loving nature toward people of all religions when he told the story of the good Samaritan.
He said … come to me all who labor and are heavy laden … and I will give you rest. It was as clear as an open invitation can be.

Cornelius and his entire household were given Baptism in the Holy Spirit … Just because he did the right thing and had an open heart.

Jesus said … “Freely you have received … Freely give!”

Yet, during the Last Supper, when Jesus stated “This is My Body” and “This is My Blood” He did so in front of His twelve Apostles - not in front of Cornelius and his entire household, not in front of those thousands who shared the fish and loaves with Him, not in front of people of all religions but in front of those twelve who had been chosen by Jesus Himself. Why is that? If He should have shared with everyone why did He not do so? The words “This is My Body” and “This is My Blood,” along with the instructions for repeating those actions were said only to the chosen twelve Apostles - and they (sans Judas) passed those instructions down to Catholics through Apostolic succession and Tradition.

I have no idea if any Protestant sect believes that the bread and wine are transformed into the actual Body and Blood of the Christ. I know that some teach consubstantiation but my understanding is that most claim that what is ingested is only bread and wine which represents the Body and Blood of Jesus. This is not what the Catholic Church teaches. Should the Church allow people who do not understand that what they are consuming is literally the Body and Blood of the Christ to consume Him? We are called “Cannibal Christians” as it is (which makes no sense, as cannibals eat dead people and Jesus is most certainly not dead).

Consuming the Body and Blood of Jesus is so holy, pure, and sacred that only those who understand should be allowed to participate.

If anyone want to consume the actual Body and Blood of the Christ they are very welcome to become Catholic by going through RCIA and learning what the Church teaches and I hope they do so.

Think about it … It is perfectly OK for Nancy Pelosi … Who has done everything in her power for her entire career to abort millions of babies … Can receive Communion on any day of the week … But a devout Non Denominational Christian … that despises abortion and fights with all her heart against Nancy Pelosi’s crusade to kill babies … is turned away from the Communion table.

No - it is not perfectly OK for Pelosi to receive Communion and she is probably harming her soul horribly by doing so. A devout non-denominational Christian that despises abortion should be turned away because he/she is not Catholic and does not understand Church teaching - even if that same non-denominational Christian has the right attitude about abortion. The Eucharist is not a reward for trying to save unborn babies or for not sinning (although one’s heart must be free of mortal sin and hopefully free of all sin when receiving Communion). It is the consuming of the Body and Blood of Jesus. To understand it one must be Catholic.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Luther said that it is on the doctrine of justification which the Church stands or falls, so yes, but I do not consider Lutheranism a sect.

Neither do I nor did I ever say that Lutheranism is a sect.

It is by grace through faith alone that we access justification. That is what the “fide” means in sola fide.
But the beginning part of all this is Grace. No one is saved wiothout Grace. As for that large segment of the population, on Earth we know of no way of attaining salvation without grace through faith. But God is merciful and just, and just like the infant or preborn that never has the chance to be baptized, we trust in His mercy.

“Fide” is the Latin word for faith. “Sola fide” is the Latin term for “faith alone.” Please let me see if I understand you correctly. Your statement regarding the preborn and infants is correct as far as I know and agrees with Church teaching. However, I am very concerned about people who have reached the age where they know the difference between right and wrong and do their best to live a good life - filled with good works and love for their fellow human beings but have never heard of Jesus and so have no faith in Him. Did Jesus die for them? Can they go to heaven? What of those who lived in those many years before the birth of Jesus? And what of those who lived and died while Jesus was walking the earth as God Incarnate but before the Crucifixion and Resurrection? Are you saying all of these people can never go to heaven? If so, why did Jesus go to Abraham’s Bosom to speak of the good news that the gates of heaven were now open? If so, isn’t this really predestination - that no matter how good these people were they could not go to heaven through absolutely no fault of their own but because God created them before Jesus’ sacrifice was complete?

Luther’s words speak to this better than mine, from his commentary on Galatians 5:6:

When you use the QUOTE function to emphasize a quote from a secondary source this is what appears when I quote your post: nothing. And then I have to find that post and copy and paste it into my response. I did that once already and lost my whole post (my computer is not working very well). I am just going to say that I will think about what Luther said and will try to respond to it later.

From my perspective, there are 2 things which you’ve missed. 1) The gates of hell has not, cannot, and will not prevail against His Church, not we in the Church Militant, and certainly not the Church Triumphant. For the gates of Hell to prevail, Satan would have to prevail in Heaven - no chance! 2) The Church Militant is more than just those in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Lutherans are part of His Church Catholic every bit as much as Catholics, or Orthodox.

The Church Militant exists on earth and all Catholics are members; hence, my user name. The Church Triumphant will also be on earth at the Second Coming. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Catholic Church at any time, on earth or anywhere else. That is a promise made by Jesus. Jesus did not say “The gates of hell shall not prevail against it, I mean in heaven.” Are you denying that the Church is present on earth?

Lutherans are not Catholics. They do not accept the authority of the Pope and they do not have valid sacraments (with the exception of baptism, which I believe is the Triune version). Lutheran priests cannot preside at Catholic Masses. No transubstantiation occurs in Lutheran churches. No Lutheran can validly consume the Eucharist at a Catholic Mass.

You’ll have to ask those that have this as part of their tradition.

Jon

I was kinda commiserating with you as you implied you didn’t know what it was either. I wasn’t asking you what it was!

DISCLAIMER: I am very poorly catechized and also have brain damage which affects memory and language processing. If I have stated anything that goes against Church teaching, please accept my apology and correct me. I mean no offense to anyone and I apologize if my language sometimes appears uncharitable. I’m trying my best to reverse the brain damage but I am not having much success.

 

[JonNC]

=LittleSoldier;9061352]
“Fide” is the Latin word for faith. “Sola fide” is the Latin term for “faith alone.” Please let me see if I understand you correctly. Your statement regarding the preborn and infants is correct as far as I know and agrees with Church teaching. However, I am very concerned about people who have reached the age where they know the difference between right and wrong and do their best to live a good life - filled with good works and love for their fellow human beings but have never heard of Jesus and so have no faith in Him. Did Jesus die for them? Can they go to heaven? What of those who lived in those many years before the birth of Jesus? And what of those who lived and died while Jesus was walking the earth as God Incarnate but before the Crucifixion and Resurrection? Are you saying all of these people can never go to heaven? If so, why did Jesus go to Abraham’s Bosom to speak of the good news that the gates of heaven were now open? If so, isn’t this really predestination - that no matter how good these people were they could not go to heaven through absolutely no fault of their own but because God created them before Jesus’ sacrifice was complete?

When you ask if they can go to Heaven, you are asking me something I’m not in a position to answer. Here is what we do know, that no one can work or earn his way to Heaven. Salvation is by Grace - a free gift. To believe one can earn salvation by their own efforts is simply unbiblical. So, for those who know nothing of Christ, we trust and pray the mercy and Grace of God for them.

When you use the QUOTE function to emphasize a quote from a secondary source this is what appears when I quote your post: nothing. And then I have to find that post and copy and paste it into my response. I did that once already and lost my whole post (my computer is not working very well). I am just going to say that I will think about what Luther said and will try to respond to it later.

Here it is:
VERSE 6. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.

*Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men. *

The Church Militant exists on earth and all Catholics are members; hence, my user name. The Church Triumphant will also be on earth at the Second Coming. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Catholic Church at any time, on earth or anywhere else. That is a promise made by Jesus. Jesus did not say “The gates of hell shall not prevail against it, I mean in heaven.” Are you denying that the Church is present on earth?

The Church Militants exists on Earth and all Lutherans are members of it, too. What I am saying is that Christ’s promise has much more to do with Parousia. The setbacks we face here on earth due to sin is not a failure of the Spirit to protect His Church. His Church is protected, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against her.

Lutherans are not Catholics. They do not accept the authority of the Pope and they do not have valid sacraments (with the exception of baptism, which I believe is the Triune version). Lutheran priests cannot preside at Catholic Masses. No transubstantiation occurs in Lutheran churches. No Lutheran can validly consume the Eucharist at a Catholic Mass.

Not sure what any of this has to do with our conversation.

I was kinda commiserating with you as you implied you didn’t know what it was either. I wasn’t asking you what it was!

Gottcha.

DISCLAIMER: I am very poorly catechized and also have brain damage which affects memory and language processing. If I have stated anything that goes against Church teaching, please accept my apology and correct me. I mean no offense to anyone and I apologize if my language sometimes appears uncharitable. I’m trying my best to reverse the brain damage but I am not having much success.

don’t worry about it. You are doing fine.

Jon

 

[1voice]

Thats all good if you want to preserve religious traditions. Jesus never focused on tradition as the end in itself. Jesus focused on people’s hearts to the point where he gladly broke the Sabbath in order to minister to one of his lost sheep. Peter, on the other hand, was a die hard traditionalist. For him… the rules trumped all else. Peter, in that (shall we call fire down from heaven) religious mind set, had it figured out because that was the way it was… plus nothing. For Peter, Jesus was exclusively the Jewish Messiah. The Holy Spirit, through a dream, contradicted and destroyed that mind set. Then he sent Peter to Cornelius’ home in order to give him the object lesson to reinforce the instruction from the Holy Spirit’s “dream classroom” … Peter was sent so that he could witness the impartation of the Holy Spirit on Cornelius’ entire household. God saw Cornelius’ heart. Peter saw his tradition… and he would have limited the plan of God… thinking that what he was doing was perfectly righteous. Peter, though he had walked with Jesus for more than three years … still didnt get it. Though Jesus clearly stated … “The traditions of men make void the power and wisdom of God.” Peter disagreed with that … God moved anyway. Its exactly the same today … Nothing has changed… God moves anyway! You can doubt it. Im sure you do … Peter had the same mindset. Cornelius and his family became true blood bought Christians and saints in Gods house that day (communion ready) … Completely separate fron any tradition. Peter was incredulous, but could not deny what he experienced … and so he said … Well lets Baptize them all.

Peter was still stuck in that mindset when Paul firmly challenged Peter. Peter after finally gaving in to allowing Gentiles into the church … then he made the new Christians submit to the old Jewish traditions. He didnt understand that the traditions were designed to point to Jesus … and that they were no longer required … Because the fulfillment of the traditions had already come in the person of Jesus.

Religion, creates division for its own sake when it enforces rules that make void the power of God. You are a Christian. Your wife is a Christian. Paul simply, clearly stated: “In Christ … there is no division”. He is talking to you … just like he talked to Peter.