Protestants, when did the Catholic Church go bad?

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One Voice, to receive Communion in the RCC you must have instruction in what exactly the Eucharist is, the living Christ, and in order to receive it you cannot be in a state of mortal sin. If you do you condemn yourself.

That is why in the RCC you must be made aware of what it is, and what the qualifications are. When a Priest refuses non-Catholics the Eucharist, he is not hurting them, he is protecting them.
Although I definitely believe in open communion, I understand and respect the position of the RCC.

When I officiate, I take time to explain who should and should not partake. I firmly believe that in Holy Communion we encounter Christ. 1 Corinthians makes that clear. While we invite any believer - or a sincere, repentant person seeking Christ - to receive the Lord’s supper I always caution that no one should partake merely to “fit in”, nor should anyone who is involved in any significant sin for which they are unwilling to repent. The Scriptures make it clear that anyone who fails to recognize the presence of Christ brings judgement upon themselves.

My point is that Open Communion does not equal a careless attitude towards the sacrament. Ultimately, neither Protestants nor Catholics can do a background investigation on people before they partake. All we can do is impress upon people the Holiness of the Sacrament in accordance with our convictions.
 
Birthcontrol, euthaniasia, homosexuality??? Sorry, I’ve never heard of **wedge-issues **before, maybe you thought these should be argued in favour of, except you know that believer dont!!!

Why use such extreme examples? You know that believing Christians are in solidarity on these issues, or that they will only serve to drive away those who are enquiring…

Think about it, doctrine means nothing without charity…
 
Birthcontrol, euthaniasia, homosexuality??? Sorry, I’ve never heard of **wedge-issues **before, maybe you thought these should be argued in favour of, except you know that believer dont!!!

Why use such extreme examples? You know that believing Christians are in solidarity on these issues, or that they will only serve to drive away those who are enquiring…

Think about it, doctrine means nothing without charity…
Are believing Christians in solidarity about these issues? I believe that several Protestant churches allow ABC. These are not extreme examples; they are issues that affect all of us, everyday, and are constantly in the news. Yesterday I read about a “Baptist” church in Tucson whose pastor is saying the little nine year-old girl who was murdered in Tucson deserved to be killed because she and her family are Catholic and Catholics pay pedophiles and love homosexuals. This pastor also teaches that homosexuals and others should be killed. His “church” is an exception. But why do some Protestant churches allow ABC, euthanasia, and homosexual behavior? Are people who believe these things are licit not believing Christians?

Doctrine is God’s truth. God is omnibenevolent; His truth and His actions are always loving.

How do you know the poster believes that these issues will serve to drive away those who are enquiring? How did you obtain this information?

As for charity, five question marks? Fourteen or fifteen exclamation points? Is that charitable? This seems to really bother you. Would you please clarify? We are brothers and sisters in Christ; I hope we can do a better job of communicating charitably.

The poster to whom you responded was very charitable. I just read his post again to be sure. If his figures are correct these issues are already “wedge issues” and have further split what should be a catholic Church. The poster didn’t do it!

Pax vobiscum.
 
Okay,but that is not that the issue at hand. 1voice has failed miserably to show any of us where it explicitly states baptism is only received when one makes a conscious-decision and fully immersed?
likewise you would have failed miserably to show where it explicitly states that the Eucharist must use unleavened bread and you would have failed miserably to show where it explicitly states that infant baptism is permitted. Can you point to an instance in the NT where baptism is not accompanied by a conscious decision? Can you point to an instance in the NT where where you can conclusively say that the baptism was not by full immersion? Do you hold that none of the baptisms described in the NT were a believer’s baptism by full immersion? I will deny state that none of the baptisms described in the NT were performed on/by a non-believer,
1voive has not displayed a shred of evidence it is the ONLY acceptable method. No where!
have you provided anything explicit saying that infant baptism is acceptable? It seems to me that you are requiring (in a taunting fashion nonetheless) the counterpart of which you, yourself can’t produce.
 
First of all, circumcision is a foreshadowing of a better thing to come called baptism.
I don’t know that I would categorize it as a foreshadowing…sure Paul makes a connection between the two in Colossians, but one must acknowledge the reason behind the connection. Paul mentions the mind, reason and beliefs in that chapter and does not mention anything about it being acceptable to baptize an infant.

Circumcism was preformed only on males…is there anything that Paul said that establishes that, likewise, baptism is only for males? NO.

Circumcism caused a permanent physical change…is there anything that Paul said that establishes that, likewise, baptism caused a permanent physical change? NO.

Circumcism was preformed on both infant and adult males…is there anything that Paul said that establishes that, likewise, baptism can be performed on both infant and adult males? NO

The connection that Paul makes is that, like circumcision, baptism cut off something that was undesirable. With circumcision a foreskin was cut off…with baptism it was the sinful nature that was cut off. ** It should be stressed, however, that Paul did not claim that baptism achieved this by itself. On the contrary, it is expressly stated that faith is involved and that God was the Agent **
When and where is it considered “the” only valid method? That is what advocates of full immersion fail to present from Scripture-alone.
when and where is another method described with approval?
 
I don’t know that I would categorize it as a foreshadowing…sure Paul makes a connection between the two in Colossians, but one must acknowledge the reason behind the connection. Paul mentions the mind, reason and beliefs in that chapter and does not mention anything about it being acceptable to baptize an infant.
Maybe you can answer this, since no one has yet…
If the Kingdom already belongs to them then why do they lose it upon hitting a certain age? Where does the Bible say THAT?
 
likewise you would have failed miserably to show where it explicitly states that the Eucharist must use unleavened bread and you would have failed miserably to show where it explicitly states that infant baptism is permitted. Can you point to an instance in the NT where baptism is not accompanied by a conscious decision? Can you point to an instance in the NT where where you can conclusively say that the baptism was not by full immersion? Do you hold that none of the baptisms described in the NT were a believer’s baptism by full immersion? I will deny state that none of the baptisms described in the NT were performed on/by a non-believer,

have you provided anything explicit saying that infant baptism is acceptable? It seems to me that you are requiring (in a taunting fashion nonetheless) the counterpart of which you, yourself can’t produce.
Hello radical,

[bibledrb]Luke 3:21-22[/bibledrb]
All the people. Are children and infants not people?
[bibledrb]Matthew 28:19-20[/bibledrb]
It says to baptize in the name… it does not say to baptize only adults, or to exclude children or infants.
[bibledrb]Acts 10:47[/bibledrb]
[bibledrb]Acts 16:15-17[/bibledrb]
And her household, which includes everyone in her household - clearly supports children and infants more than to exclude them.
[bibledrb]Acts 16:31[/bibledrb]
Shows how the faith of a household member can extend to the members of his house, again supporting children and infants.

I did not find anything about a specific method of baptism other than to use water.

However, the Bible does include a lot about obedience and Paul was not told to plant his own Church, instead he was instructed to go and join the others. Even as it appears that he had disagreements with Peter, he remained with them in one Church and did not separate and create a Paulinism Denomination.

In Him.
 
Maybe you can answer this, since no one has yet…
If the Kingdom already belongs to them then why do they lose it upon hitting a certain age? Where does the Bible say THAT?
Well first, you might want to ask how those such as the little children acquired the kingdom of heaven. There is no indciation that the children were baptised…so that doesn’t seem to be the method. There is no indication that the kids were all male so that circumcision could be the means. I note that the sermon on the mount specifies that the poor in spirit and that the persecuted possess the kingdom as well. What was it/is it about small children that gives them the kingdom of heaven? Their unabashed faith? their unfettered love? …the text isn’t clear…but based on the sermon on the mount I wouldn’t hold that the poor or the persecuted who reject Christ retain the kingdom…would you? So why would you think that children retain the kingdom of heaven even as they age and fall into disbelief? Where does the Bible say that the kingdom is retained by the poor, the persecuted or the former child when such fall into disbelief?
 
Well first, you might want to ask how those such as the little children acquired the kingdom of heaven. There is no indciation that the children were baptised…so that doesn’t seem to be the method.
The Good Thief wasn’t baptized either and neither was anyone who had come before him. Baptism had not yet been instituted because the New Covenant had not yet been instituted (it was a few seconds away at that point). You might as well be pointing out that Noah had never been baptized.
What was it/is it about small children that gives them the kingdom of heaven? Their unabashed faith? their unfettered love? …the text isn’t clear…
Again… show me where the Bible says anything about them losing the kingdom.
So why would you think that children retain the kingdom of heaven even as they age and fall into disbelief? Where does the Bible say that the kingdom is retained by the poor, the persecuted or the former child when such fall into disbelief?
You haven’t answered my question, but let’s pretend that you have and then I’ll give you the rejoinder:

Then why doesn’t God just keep us all little kids forever so that no one dies or goes to hell? That’s basically how Adam and Eve were before the fall, after all. They had no sin, nor were they subject to death. Why would a good and loving God permit us to grow up and become evil in the first place?

So we could be “saved” by Christ? What do you mean by “saved?” According to you, we’re no better off than Adam and Eve would have been had they not sinned. Actually, by your standards, we’re worse: We’re all going to die. So what did Christ actually do for us, anyway?

Here is the answer: God permitted all of the world’s sin, death and destruction to happen so that through Christ, you could become a partaker of the divine life: actual righteousness. But Protestantism (except Methodism) rejects that in favor of the imputation theory of righteousness in which you start out as a dung heap and remain a dung heap even after your justification; you just get some snow (Christ’s merits) thrown on you so that you can get into heaven. Baptism actually destroys your sin, but you deny that because that would contradict your imputation theory; you would rather remain a dung heap, thus you see no need for baptism except as a symbolic first-century look-at-the-length-of-my-phylacteries PowerPoint show. Since children are incapable of saying the word “phylacteries,” you refuse to baptize them.

**The problem for you is that a good and loving God does not make dung heaps. ** Unless Calvary actually allows us to achieve a BETTER state than what Adam and Eve had–BETTER than just having no sin–there is no point to Christianity, or existence itself for that matter. Since the path to that BETTER state starts with baptism, you miss baptism because you missed the whole path. It’s open to everyone, whether or not they are old enough to be able to say the word “phylacteries.”
 
likewise you would have failed miserably to show where it explicitly states that the Eucharist must use unleavened bread and you would have failed miserably to show where it explicitly states that infant baptism is permitted. Can you point to an instance in the NT where baptism is not accompanied by a conscious decision? Can you point to an instance in the NT where where you can conclusively say that the baptism was not by full immersion? Do you hold that none of the baptisms described in the NT were a believer’s baptism by full immersion? I will deny state that none of the baptisms described in the NT were performed on/by a non-believer,
Peace to you, Radical. As far as I know the Eucharist uses unleavened bread because it is a discipline. Not dogma. Not doctrine. I might be wrong and if I am I hope someone tells me so. Also, the Church relies on the entire Word of God - not just that which appears in the bible. I don’t know why unleavened bread is used but I’m sure there is a good reason and that it is backed up by bible scripture, even if it is not explicitly stated. Just off the top of my head I would say that it has something to do with the Passover in which unleavened bread was used (wasn’t it?) and Jesus and the twelve were celebrating the Passover on the night Jesus was betrayed. So - He used unleavened bread as a good Jew would. And we follow His example. It is our *tradition *and as it is a discipline it can be changed. That’s my theory. I’m not a bible scholar. I haven’t even sat down and read it through.

The bible is silent on many issues. One of these is infant baptism. And by that I mean that nowhere in the bible does it say: Thou shalt baptise infants. That doesn’t mean that infant baptism is incorrect or that it has no support in bible scripture. It just means that the bible does not come right out and say it in black and white, end of story. Some people say that the bible has everything in it that we need. I don’t think so and the end of the Book of John kinda backs me up. It states:

This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. ** But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.**

[John 21:25-25, Douay-Rheims, bolding added by this poster for emphasis]

If a person believes in *sola scriptura *he should be able to defend his beliefs using only the bible. I believe the question regarding infant baptism has been asked numerous times and has not been answered. But when you ask a question of a Catholic, please be aware that we do not believe in *sola scriptura *and are not bound to show that anything is explicitly stated in the bible.

In the Catholic Church infants are baptised because the Sacrament confers grace upon the infant and removes Original Sin and the stain of Original Sin. We believe that baptism is so holy and sacred that all babies should receive the Sacrament. Their parents and godparents stand in for them.

I am very unhappy that I did not have my son baptised. When he was born I was not a practicing Catholic and he was taken from me illegally and a couple adopted him, illegally. And all I can do is hope that he has been baptised but if I could do it over again he would have been baptised on the day of his birth because he almost died at birth. I was negligent and I will have to answer to God for my negligence.
 
The Good Thief wasn’t baptized either and neither was anyone who had come before him. Baptism had not yet been instituted because the New Covenant had not yet been instituted (it was a few seconds away at that point). You might as well be pointing out that Noah had never been baptized.
so what is your point? Is it that since the good thief went to paradise, baptism can’t be essential…is it that since the kids had the kingdom w/o baptism, then baptism isn’t necessary for the kingdom…makes sense, doesn’t it?
Again… show me where the Bible says anything about them losing the kingdom.
Judas was a kid once, wasn’t he? Did he lose or retain the kingdom that he had as a kid? …you do the math.
You haven’t answered my question, but let’s pretend…
should we pretend that we don’t know that Judas was a child once and that he lost the kingdom of heaven that a child is granted?
…that you have and then I’ll give you the rejoinder:
Then why doesn’t God just keep us all little kids forever so that no one dies or goes to hell?
why would he need to keep us kids? After judgement apparently sin is ended even though we aren’t kept kids.
That’s basically how Adam and Eve were before the fall, after all. They had no sin, nor were they subject to death. Why would a good and loving God permit us to grow up and become evil in the first place?
So we could be “saved” by Christ? What do you mean by “saved?” According to you, we’re no better off than Adam and Eve would have been had they not sinned. Actually, by your standards, we’re worse: We’re all going to die. So what did Christ actually do for us, anyway?
died for us?
Here is the answer: God permitted all of the world’s sin, death and destruction to happen so that through Christ, you could become a partaker of the divine life: actual righteousness.
w/o first experiencing sin we can’t be a partaker in divine righteousness?..that sounds odd
But Protestantism (except Methodism) rejects that in favor of the imputation theory of righteousness in which you start out as a dung heap and remain a dung heap even after your justification; you just get some snow (Christ’s merits) thrown on you so that you can get into heaven.
this doesn’t sound like anything I believe
Baptism actually destroys your sin,…
but those kids in the passage under discussion weren’t baptized…so was their sin undestroyed, and if so, how did they acquire the kingdom of heaven?..it seems that you are off on an irrelevant tangent
**The problem for you is that a good and loving God does not make dung heaps. **
who made Judas? Hitler?
Unless Calvary actually allows us to achieve a BETTER state than what Adam and Eve had–BETTER than just having no sin–there is no point to Christianity, or existence itself for that matter.
what an odd position to take
Since the path to that BETTER state starts with baptism, you miss baptism because you missed the whole path. It’s open to everyone, whether or not they are old enough to be able to say the word “phylacteries.”
in the NT it is always connected to belief…as part of the pretending that you are doing, do you pretend that that connection is not made?
 
Sola scriptura is rejected because the first Christains didn’t even have the New Testament!
Secondly, Salvation is achieved thru faith and good works.
 
Paul mentions the mind, reason and beliefs in that chapter and does not mention anything about it being acceptable to baptize an infant.
Paul doesn’t mention anything about baptizing infants because he is addressing adults; the clue being that he mentions the mind, reason, and beliefs in that chapter.

One must also acknowledge that if Paul had an issue with infant baptism, this chapter would’ve been an excellent time to address it. He doesn’t. And it’s not mentioned anywhere else in the bible either; that is, nowhere is it expressly forbidden.

In the OT, children of believers were included in God’s Covenant. Therefore, we can presume that Jewish converts to Christianity in the NT would have no problem understanding the idea that their children were included in the New Covenant - particularly since baptism was the new circumcision. This is important because baptism marks the child as part of the visible Body of Christ.
Circumcism was preformed only on males…is there anything that Paul said that establishes that, likewise, baptism is only for males?
It appears that you are saying the Old Covenant only applied to males because circumcision was only performed on males. But, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you realize the Old Covenant applied to males and females (i.e., Abraham’s descendants). With that in mind, your question about baptism being only for males makes no sense.
Circumcism caused a permanent physical change…is there anything that Paul said that establishes that, likewise, baptism caused a permanent physical change?
I think you’re somewhat confused about the reason Paul uses the analogy - it’s not to compare the rituals, it’s to compare the Covenants in a way that the Jewish converts can understand. Just because baptism doesn’t involve a knife and foreskin doesn’t mean that the analogy Paul is making is emptied of its meaning. Circumcision was a mark of the Old Covenant and resulted in a spiritual change - a relationship between Abraham/his descendants and God (see Gen. 17). Likewise, baptism reflects the same for the New Covenant.

Circumcism was preformed on both infant and adult males…is there anything that Paul said that establishes that, likewise, baptism can be performed on both infant and adult males?

He didn’t address it because it wasn’t an issue.
In light of the fact that the Old Covenant promises were extended to children, is there any evidence to suggest that the (greater) New Covenant promises would not also be extended to infant children of believing adults?

As a matter of fact, there is at least some support that those promises were extended to infant children of believing adults (see Acts 2:38–39).
The connection that Paul makes is that, like circumcision, baptism cut off something that was undesirable. With circumcision a foreskin was cut off…with baptism it was the sinful nature that was cut off.
This is silly. You’re saying that Paul was comparing the act of carving off the foreskin of a male penis, to baptism cutting off our sin nature? So the water is the new izmail… and the person’s body is the new penis/foreskin? You see how silly this is, right?
Paul is trying to explain the New Covenant to Jewish converts, that’s all.
** It should be stressed, however, that Paul did not claim that baptism achieved this by itself. On the contrary, it is expressly stated that faith is involved and that God was the Agent **
Achieved what by itself? Yes, faith is required for salvation. However, as you know by now, Paul was speaking to adults! As Paul writes, God gives each of us a certain measure of faith (Romans 12:3), and this faith is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9). As a gift, it is not something that we can earn as a result of racking up birthdays, but we will be judged according to the gifts God has given us (Romans 12:6-24).

Assuming God withholds the gift of faith from infants, it’s worth noting that even though Abraham confessed his faith some time before he was circumcised, Isaac was marked with the covenant before he confessed his faith in God. (Gen 21:4). So, there is some evidence that when it comes to God’s covenant promises, there is no standard chronology between faith and the covenant ritual.

With that in mind it’s easy to understand why Paul doesn’t address the issue of infant baptism - he’s addressing adults who have the ability to understand, and to reason. He’s addressing adults who offend God by failing to do good (sin of omission) and who do things they shouldn’t be doing (sin of commission). Infants lack the ability to know good from evil and are therefore judged innocent by God. (Deut. 1:34-40) If judged innocent by God, then death has lost its sting. (1 Cor. 15:55-57)

Finally, let’s assume that infants are totally depraved and unbelieving creatures. Unbelievers can be saved by their Holy loved ones, and Paul says that the children of believers are set apart to God (see 1 Cor. 7:12–14).
when and where is another method described with approval?
About a quarter of the baptisms mentioned in the New Testament involve entire households, which probably included children (even if it’s a “50%” probability, those are still pretty good odds). So, baptizing entire households at one time seems to be perfectly acceptable.
 
Originally Posted by Radical
likewise you** would have failed miserably to show where it explicitly states that the Eucharist must use unleavened bread and you would have failed miserably to show where it explicitly states that infant baptism is permitted**. Can you point to an instance in the NT where baptism is not accompanied by a conscious decision? Can you point to an instance in the NT where where you can conclusively say that the baptism was not by full immersion? Do you hold that none of the baptisms described in the NT were a believer’s baptism by full immersion? I will deny state that none of the baptisms described in the NT were performed on/by a non-believer
And how ironic how you have failed miserably to present ONE ECF explicitly teaching the RP of the Eucharist is heretical or a great usurpation of Christ. Amazing nearly 1,000 years of great works and no mention of the RP being heretical and a false teaching? And you can stop using the cop-out excuse because it was not taught in the early church. If it was not taught as you claim,then back it up with empirical evidence.
 
likewise you would have failed miserably to show where it explicitly states that the Eucharist must use unleavened bread and you would have failed miserably to show where it explicitly states that infant baptism is permitted. Can you point to an instance in the NT where baptism is not accompanied by a conscious decision? Can you point to an instance in the NT where where you can conclusively say that the baptism was not by full immersion? Do you hold that none of the baptisms described in the NT were a believer’s baptism by full immersion? I will deny state that none of the baptisms described in the NT were performed on/by a non-believer,

have you provided anything explicit saying that infant baptism is acceptable? It seems to me that you are requiring (in a taunting fashion nonetheless) the counterpart of which you, yourself can’t produce.
Nice one Radical. Much like you have failed miserbaly after months of asking you to present me ONE early chruch father clearly teaching the RP of the Eucharist is heretical or false. Have you Radical? Nope! And stop using the weak excuse it was not taught,because if it was not taught as you claim,then show us when,where and who invented it? If you are so adamant the RP is false and the novel belief of a symbolic eucharist is orthodox,then show me ONE ECF clearly rejecting the RP as being false?

And you can you point to one instance where any young child makes a self-conscious decision to be baptized? And you can you point to the NT where all baptisms where done exclusively by full immersion ONLY and other methods rejected?

I too can play your game Radical.
 
I don’t know that I would categorize it as a foreshadowing…sure Paul makes a connection between the two in Colossians, but one must acknowledge the reason behind the connection. Paul mentions the mind, reason and beliefs in that chapter and does not mention anything about it being acceptable to baptize an infant.

Circumcism was preformed only on males…is there anything that Paul said that establishes that, likewise, baptism is only for males? NO.

Circumcism caused a permanent physical change…is there anything that Paul said that establishes that, likewise, baptism caused a permanent physical change? NO.

Circumcism was preformed on both infant and adult males…is there anything that Paul said that establishes that, likewise, baptism can be performed on both infant and adult males? NO

The connection that Paul makes is that, like circumcision, baptism cut off something that was undesirable. With circumcision a foreskin was cut off…with baptism it was the sinful nature that was cut off. ** It should be stressed, however, that Paul did not claim that baptism achieved this by itself. On the contrary, it is expressly stated that faith is involved and that God was the Agent **

when and where is another method described with approval?
Interesting Radical,but strangely Paul never rejects infant baptism either-does he? And where and when is full-immersion the only method approved?
 
St.Paul’s 1st epistle to the Corinthians10:2 and all were baptised in Moses
St.Paul’s epistle to the Hebrews 11:29 By faith they passed thorugh the Red Sea.

What the children went through the sea too! how could they they had no “faith”
All baptised in Moses??? ALL but how? children can’t…
The parent’s faith carried the children through the water…infant baptism can be supported by scripture. disallowing the children to come to the kingdom is prohibited by Jesus himself.
brought this forward for radical in case he missed it.
 
Hello radical,
hello
re Luke 3:21-22
All the people. Are children and infants not people?
I see “all” means all when it suits? Tell me, does “all have sinned” mean that Mary sinned? In any event, I would suggest that one looks at the context. John’s baptism is described as a baptism of repentance…so it would seem that the ability to repent would have been required. As such, in that context I would understand “all the people” to mean “all the people that repented”.
Matthew 28:19-20
It says to baptize in the name… it does not say to baptize only adults, or to exclude children or infants.
nor does it say to baptize infants and other non-believers
Acts 10:47
Acts 16:15-17
And her household, which includes everyone in her household - clearly supports children and infants more than to exclude them.
well let’s look at Acts 16 first (NIV):

31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.
Please note that how it starts off with a call to believe and how it ends with an indication that the whole household came to believe (after hearing the word of the Lord preached to all in that household). One doesn’t preach to infants and infants don’t come to believe so, in that case, either there were no infants in that household, or Luke expected his readers to employ common sense and understand that he was only talking about those members of the house who could listen and come to believe.

WRT Acts 10 you should note what was said earlier at verse 43: All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

again, note the emphasis on “believing”…I don’t see how Acts 10 helps you argue for the baptism of unable-to-believe infants

Returning to Acts 16:15-17 I had addressed that passage earlier in response to another poster. Here is my repsonse again,somewhat revised:

You seem to be making two asssumptions. First, you are assuming that Lydia’s household included INFANT children (by “infant” I mean children who are too young to form a belief)…you need infant children to be present.

Second, you assume that Luke’s usage of “household being baptized” would have included infant children being baptized (and not meant those in the household who believed).

you say :
And her household, which includes everyone in her household - clearly supports children and infants more than to exclude them.
how much more is that clear support in your opinion? …can you put a percentage on the likelihood of Lydia’s household containing infant children? Let’s say that you put it at 75%…if that were the only assumption involved, then you would stand strong, but you require that second assumption.

Ignatius wrote:
I greet the households of my brothers with the wives and children." How does his statement help your argument?
and
I salute all by name, and in particular the wife of Epitropus, with all her house and children.
Such usage of “household” by Ignatius highlights your second assumption, which is, that in the context, Luke’s usage of “household” would have included infant children (if such even existed in Lydia’s case). IOW, just b/c infant children would be included within thje term “household” in some cases, it does not mean that they would be included in all cases. For example, in the NT, belief is very strongly connected to the act of baptism…a number of specific instances of baptism are described and in each case the specific person being baptized is a believer. B/c of that and b/c of statements such as “believed and were baptized” there could have been a tacit understanding (between Luke and his readers) that only believers would be included w/i those baptized. It then becomes a question of whether the term “household” could be used in a fashion that would not always include infant children, even though infant children existed within the household under consideration. That brings us to the usage of the term by Igantius. He seems to distinguish between “household” and wives and children. If you want to suggest that Epitopus’ kids had moved out (and that is why they are listed separate from “household”) then:

a) if kids are moving out in that culture, such a thing would reduce the likelihood of your first assumption; and

b) the problem with that suggestion is that it conflicts with Ignatius’ specific mention of wives (who would not have moved out).

As such, it would seem that we have a usage of “household” (by Ignatius) that does not necessarily include chlidren. So then, in the face of those considerations, how strong is your assumption that Luke’s usage of “household being baptized” would have included infant children being baptized? Returning to Acts 16: 31-34 we see Luke stating that the whole household believed which means that either that household had no infants or Luke was using the term “household” in a manner that did not include “infants”. IOW Luke wouldn’t have infants under consideration when he indicated that whole households believed or when he indicated that whole households were baptized.

As such, I wouldn’t agree with you that Luke’s use of “household” clearly supports the practice of infant baptism and I would assert that the strong connection between believing and baptism established by Luke (and the other NT writers) makes the baptism of infants in the NT era extremely unlikely.
 
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