Protestants: When did the Church depart from Truth into Error?

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Oh it wasn’t a criticism. I was just worried we might get into trouble for wandering far off topic. Now that we’ve wandered off topic again, what’s to do?

😃
How about stop commentating on it, and just get back to the subject? 😃
 
We cannot go back to March 31. 706 and pick up where we left off. If we could ever all agree. That, I think, will take the Second Coming, to which many people will raise theological objections while it is happening,
This is why I believe its important to accept the God given authorities placed over us.

If we can’t recognize Gods authority then we wont recognize Jesus either because he wont ascert it over us. We have to choose it.
 
But what does the fact that She never departed from the Truth have to do with reading the Bible at Mass in 3 year cycles?
I believe it was a departure from the truth based on the false doctrine of scripture alone.

The point should be that the church encourages all to read scripture but that its not in itself the fullness of the pillar and foundation of truth established by our Savior.
 

Within a 3 yrs period it can cover it. If a Catholics goes to Mass Daily and attend Sunday Mass. It will cover it. I’ve been a Catholic for 31 yrs.
Manny, I am not going to take your word against the lectionary itself. Sorry. You can go look at it online and see quite easily that it only covers a fraction of the OT. I don’t care how long you have been a Catholic–the evidence here is against you.

I should not have spent the time, but I compiled a list of the OT texts used in the daily Mass readings. I started through the Sunday readings as well (some of which duplicate the daily readings, but some do not), but only got through Advent. So there are some more texts than the ones I list, but not a lot more. You can see how incomplete the coverage is, although they try to give an overall picture by careful selection. The fact is that the readings would have to be much longer than they are to get through the whole Bible:
 
Gen 1; 2:1-9, 15-25; 3; 4:1-15, 25; 6:5-8; 7:1-5, 10; 8:6-13, 20-22; 9:1-13; 11:1-9; 12:1-9; 13:2, 5-18; 15:1-12, 17-18; 16:1-12, 15-16; 17:1, 3-10, 15-22; 18; 19:15-28; 21:5, 8-20a; 22:1b-19; 23:1-4, 19; 24:1-8, 62-67; 27:1-5, 15-29; 28:10-22a; 32:23-33; 37:3-4, 12-13a, 17b-28a; 41:55-57; 42:5-7a, 17-24a; 44:18-21, 23b-29; 45:1-5; 46:1-7, 28-30; 49:2, 8-10, 29-32; 50:15-26aExod 1:8-14, 22; 2:1-15a; 3:1-6, 9-20; 11:10; 12:1-14, 37-42; 14:5-18, 21-31; 15:1-6, 8-10, 12, 17; 16:1-5, 9-15; 19:1-2, 9-11, 16-20b; 17:1-7; 20:1-17; 24:3-8; 32:7-24, 30-34; 33:7-11; 34:5b-9, 28-35; 40:16-21, 34-38Lev 19:1-2, 11-18; 23:1, 4-11, 15-16, 27, 34b-37; 25:1, 8-17Num 11:4b-15; 12:1-13; 13:1-2, 25-33; 14:1, 26a-29a, 34-35; 20:1-13; 21:4-9; 24:2-7, 15-17a Deut 4:1, 5-9, 32-40; 6:4-13; 10:12-22; 26:16-19; 30:15-20;31:1-8; 32:3-4b, 7-9, 12, 18-21, 26-28, 30, 35-36, 39, 41; 34:1-12Josh 3:7-10a, 11, 13-17; 24:1-29Judg 2:11-19; 6:11-24a; 9:6-15; 11:29-39a; 13:2-7, 24-25a Ruth 1:1, 3-5, 14-16, 22; 2:1-3, 8-11; 4:13-171 Sam 1:1-20, 24-28; 2:1, 4-5, 6-8d; 3:1-10, 19-20; 4:1-11; 8:4-7, 10-22a; 9:1-4, 17-19; 10:1; 15:16-23; 17:32-33, 37, 40-51; 18: 6-9; 19:1-7; 24:3-212 Sam 1:1-4, 11-12, 19, 23-27; 7:1-5, 8b-12, 14a, 16; 5:1-7, 10; 6:12b-15, 17-19; 7:4-19, 24-29; 11:1-4a, 5-10a, 13-17; 12:1-7a, 10-17; 15:13-14, 30; 16:5-13; 18:9-10, 14b, 24-25a, 30-32; 19:1-3; 24:2, 9-171 Kings 2:1-4, 10-12; 3:4-13; 8:1-7, 9-13, 22-23, 27-30; 10:1-10; 11:4-13, 29-32; 12:19, 26-32; 13:33-34; 17:1-16; 18:20-39, 41-46; 19:9a, 11-16, 19-21; 212 Kgs 2:1, 6-14; 4:18b-21, 32-37; 5:1-15a; 11:1-4, 9-18, 20; 17:5-8, 13-15a, 18; 19:9b-11, 14-21, 31-35a, 36; 22:8-13; 23:1-3; 24:8-17; 25:1-121 Chr 29:10-12 2 Chr 24:17-25Ezra 1:1-6; 6:7-8, 12b, 14-29; 9:5-9Neh. 2:1-8; 8:1-4a, 5-6, 7b-121 Macc. 1:10-15, 41-43, 54-57, 62-63; 2:15-29; 4:36-37, 52-59; 6:1-132 Macc. 6:18-31; 7:1, 20-31Esth C:12, 14-16, 23-25Tob 1:3; 2:1a-8; 2:9-14; 3:1-11a, 16-17a; 6:10-11; 7:1bcde, 9-17; 8:4-9a; 11: 5-17; 12:1, 5-15, 20; 13:2, 6e-8, 10Job 1:6-22; 9:1-12, 14-16; 19:21-27; 38:1, 12-21; 40:3-5; 42:1-3, 5-6, 12-17Prov. 3:27-34; 21:1-6, 10-13; 30:5-9Ecclesiastes 1:2-11; 3:1-11; 11:9-10; 12Cant 2:8-14 Wis 1:1-7; 2:1a, 12-24; 3:1-9; 6:1-11; 7:22b-36; 8:1; 13:1-9; 18:14-16; 19:6-9Sir 1:1-10; 2:1-11; 4:11-19; 5:1-8; 6:5-17; 17:20-24; 35:1-12; 36:1, 4-51, 10-17; 42:15-25; 44:1, 9-13; 47:2-11; 48:1-14; 51:12cd-20
 
Isaiah 1:10-20; 2:1-5; 4:2-6; 6:1-8; 7:1-14; 10:5-7, 13b-16;11:1-10; 12:2-6; 25:6-10a; 26:1-9, 12, 16-19; 29:17-24; 30:19-21, 23-26; 35:1-10; 38:1-8, 10-12, 16, 21-22; 40:1-11, 25-31; 41:13-20; 42:1-7; 45:6c-8, 18, 21c-25; 48:17-19; 49:1-6, 8-15; 50: 4-9a; 54:1-10; 55:10-11; 56:1-3a, 6-8; 58:1-14; 61:1-3a, 6a, 8b-11; 63:16b-17, 19b; 64:2-7; 65:17-21Jer 1:1, 4-10; 2:1-3, 7-8, 12-13; 3:14-17; 7:1-11, 23-28; 11:18-20; 13: 1-11; 14: 17-22; 15:10, 16-21; 17:5-10; 18:1-6, 18-20;20:10-13; 23:5-8; 26:1-9, 11-16, 24; 28:1-17; 30:1-2, 12-15, 18-22; 31:1-7, 10-12b, 13, 31-34; 33:14-16Baruch 1:15-22; 4:5-12, 27-29; 5:1-9Lam 2:2, 10-14, 18-19Ezek. 1:2-5, 24-28c; 2:8-3:4; 9:1-7; 10:18-22; 12:1-2; 16:1-15, 59-63; 18:1-10, 13b, 21-32; 24:15-23; 28:1-10; 34:1-11; 36:23-28; 37:1-14, 21-28; 43:1-7b; 47:1-9, 12Dan 1:1-6, 8-20; 2:31-45; 3:14-20, 25, 34-43, 52-87, 91-92, 95; 5:1-6, 13-14, 16-17, 23-28; 6:12-28; 7:2-27; 9:4b-10; 13:1-9, 15-17, 19-30, 33-62Hos 2:1-16, 17c-18, 21-22; 6:1-6; 14:2-10; 8:4-7, 11-13; 10:1-3, 7-8, 12; 11:1-4, 8e-9; 14:2-10Amos 2:6-10, 13-16; 3:1-8; 4:11-12; 5:14-15, 21-24; 7:10-17; 8:4-5, 9-12; 9:11-15Joel 1:13-15; 2:1-2, 12-18; 4:12-21Jonah 1; 2:2-5, 8, 11; 3-4Nahum 2:1, 3; 3:1-3, 6-7Hab. 1:12-17; 2:1-4Mic 2:1-5; 5:1-4a; 6:1-4, 6-8; 7:7-9, 14-15, 18-20Zeph 3:1-2, 9-18aHag: 1:1-8; 2:1-9Zech: 2:5-9, 14-15a; 8:1-8, 20-23Mal 3:1-4, 13-20b, 23-24
 
This was a little tongue-in-cheek inside joke. The CC reads the entire bible at Mass on a 3 year cycle. Most days we read an OT verse, sing a psalm, then a reading from the letters of the Apostles, then a reading from the Gospel. If you go to Mass every week for 3 years you will hear the entire bible read to you out loud (in your native tongue). 🙂
Until 1969, there was no 3 year cycle. The old missal used the same readings every year, so much less of the Bible was actually covered in Mass.
 


Manny, I am not going to take your word against the lectionary itself. Sorry. You can go look at it online and see quite easily that it only covers a fraction of the OT. I don’t care how long you have been a Catholic–the evidence here is against you.

I should not have spent the time, but I compiled a list of the OT texts used in the daily Mass readings. I started through the Sunday readings as well (some of which duplicate the daily readings, but some do not), but only got through Advent. So there are some more texts than the ones I list, but not a lot more. You can see how incomplete the coverage is, although they try to give an overall picture by careful selection. The fact is that the readings would have to be much longer than they are to get through the whole Bible:
That’s just the week-day lectionary. Did you also include the Sundays, as well? (Just curious.)
 
The lectionary discussion has no relevance to the Reformation. There was no lectionary until the Pauline Mass. Prior to the Pauline Mass, the readings were from the Missal, which was the same every year and included much less of the Bible.
 
You do know that Latin was the ‘popular’ language, don’t you?

Picture a missionary going into a reasonable size city in Europe around AD 1200. Quite likely there will be sizable groups of people there who speak French (of various dialects and types). And a few who speak Danish or Finnish or Norwegian, some speaking various Germanic dialects, the Irish contingent speaking a type of Gaelic, some low Dutch, some speaking Italian, some Swiss, a few speaking the Chaucerian middle English, maybe some Russians, some Arabic traders, some Spaniards and Portuguese. . .

Guess what? Virtually every one of them would have some knowledge of Latin. Rather than having 15 different missionaries going out to speak to 15 different groups in 15 different tongues, all that is needed is ONE missionary speaking to an ENTIRE group in ONE language.

Just because a sizeable number of people are ignorant not only of Latin, but of all but their ‘own’ language today does not mean that even the ‘serf’ of those long-ago days was likewise ignorant of anything but his ‘own’ language. The man (and woman) of the times from around AD 1000-AD 1500 was on the contrary more likely to know more than one language as a matter of course.

The people of those times may have lacked the ‘breadth’ of our contemporary culture, where a lot of people know a ‘little’ about a ‘lot’ of things. However, they had a DEPTH of culture that we would do well to emulate; they may not have known about a ‘lot’ of things, but what they DID know, they knew a lot about.

People picture those people as ignorant, brainwashed dolts who knew at most some vague, Catholic Church distorted picture of God = the pope, give us money for your sins to be forgiven and that’s all you need to know.

They forget that with a preliteral culture comes a very strong ORAL tradition. These people had anywhere from 1000-1500 years of that oral culture. They ‘knew’ more about God in what they had been told, and read to, that lots of people who spend their days combing through their Bibles and concordances arguing about what a passage ‘meant’ probably do.
Kinda funny that Latin is now a dinosaur (extinct) language…isn’t it? Just how many people today even know what Latin is? If it is truly the language of God you would think a billion Catholic people would be speaking it and that God would want it preserved. How many Catholics in the olden days even had a clue what the salvation message was because it was in Latin? So much for oral tradition.

Today there are billions of Bibles printed in hundreds of different languages and that is why Evangelicalism is making inroads in South America and other places in the world.

How many missionaries are there in the world? They could never reach every person in the world with the gospel but if you distribute millions of Bibles everywhere someone will find one, open it, read it and understand the salvation message.

I read an article about a man from China who was in a Japanese prison camp during WWII. He found a few pages from the book of Romans in a latrine. A Japanese guard took a Bible away from a dead American soldier, tore the pages out of it and placed the pages in various latrines for toilet paper. The Chinaman happened to have spoken English, was curious about the writings, hid the pages in his pocket until he could read them and got saved .
 
Kinda funny that Latin is now a dinosaur (extinct) language…isn’t it? Just how many people today even know what Latin is?
Uh - all literate people have heard of Latin.
If it is truly the language of God you would think a billion Catholic people would be speaking it and that God would want it preserved.
Who claims that it’s the “language of God?”
How many Catholics in the olden days even had a clue what the salvation message was because it was in Latin? So much for oral tradition.
They learned the Gospel message in their Catechism classes.The Mass is not a Catechism class or a Sunday School - it’s the worship of God. We don’t need to understand the language in order to worship God - all we need are hearts that love Him. Catechism classes are where the teaching and learning happens, and these have always been in the language of the people.

The Mass was in Latin because it was the most common language of the world at that time. Scientists also used Latin when communicating internationally, back in those days.
 
Kinda funny that Latin is now a dinosaur (extinct) language…isn’t it? Just how many people today even know what Latin is? If it is truly the language of God you would think a billion Catholic people would be speaking it and that God would want it preserved. How many Catholics in the olden days even had a clue what the salvation message was because it was in Latin? So much for oral tradition.
It isn’t dead, there is a interest among young Catholics who want to hear the Latin Mass. Today there are billions of Bibles printed in hundreds of different languages and that is why Evangelicalism is making inroads in South America and other places in the world.

Let this article enlighten your mind.

washingtontimes.com/culture/20060130-113215-9346r.htm

Here is a quote:

More and more Catholics are longing for Latin, the language of scholars, Gregorian chant and the Mass.
Some say it’s all part of the general trend back to the classics of Western civilization. All the Rev. Franklyn McAfee knows is that when he announced earlier this month he was starting up free Latin classes on Saturday mornings at St. John the Beloved Catholic Church in McLean, more than 70 parishioners packed the first session.
One parishioner, former federal Judge Robert Bork, a recent convert to Catholicism, got there early to ensure himself a seat in front of Marion Smedberg, a Latin instructor from Reston.
The others, fingering Latin binders with one hand and clutching coffee or a doughnut in the other, crammed their way into a small classroom to learn “Et cum spiritu tuo” (“And with your spirit”) as a response to “Dominus vobiscum” (“The Lord be with you”).
By the second Saturday, the class had moved to the parish hall for the more than 80 people who wanted to learn the ancient language. Their assignment: learn the basic prayers by March 1, the beginning of Lent. Starting March 5, the church’s popular 10:45 a.m. Sunday Mass will be in Latin.
How many missionaries are there in the world? They could never reach every person in the world with the gospel but if you distribute millions of Bibles everywhere someone will find one, open it, read it and understand the salvation message.
The Bible is not easily read. If it is not read carefully, people can justify murder. Case in point, David Koresh. Only the Church is the sole interpreter of the Bible not individuals.
I read an article about a man from China who was in a Japanese prison camp during WWII. He found a few pages from the book of Romans in a latrine. A Japanese guard took a Bible away from a dead American soldier, tore the pages out of it and placed the pages in various latrines for toilet paper. The Chinaman happened to have spoken English, was curious about the writings, hid the pages in his pocket until he could read them and got saved.
Reading the Bible cannot save you. You have to be baptized first. If that were the case, how do you suppose illiteral people can be saved back in the early days of Christianity. Back then, there were only two classes of people the, the literate (read) and the illerate (the ones who cannot read).
 
Nancie Lew:
Kinda funny that Latin is now a dinosaur (extinct) language…isn’t it?
For some. For others the Christians who preceded them don’t seem terribly important, I guess. Why should anyone make any effort to understand them? :rolleyes:
Nancie Lew:
Just how many people today even know what Latin is?
Well I guess for someone whose entire view of Christianity is bound up in a 21st Century, literate, affluent, Western point of view this rhetorical question might be meaningful. However Christianity is 2000 years old and has extended well beyond a 21st Century, literate, affluent, Western point of view. And therefore this rhetorical question is not meaningful. It is provincial.
Nancie Lew:
If it is truly the language of God you would think a billion Catholic people would be speaking it and that God would want it preserved.
Nancie, has anyone said that Latin is the language of God?
Nancie Lew:
How many Catholics in the olden days even had a clue what the salvation message was because it was in Latin?
Actually quite a few had a rudimentary knowledge of Latin. Not enough to become biblical scholars. However the Bible was not how Christianity was taught to the common people. It was taught through the homilies, through sacred art, sacred music, and through theatre.
Nancie Lew:
So much for oral tradition.
So much for 1500 years of history then.
Nancie Lew:
Today there are billions of Bibles printed in hundreds of different languages and that is why Evangelicalism is making inroads in South America and other places in the world.
Evangelicalism is not making inroads among the illiterate. It is making inroads among those who want entertainment rather than the Holy Mass. People are exercising their free will to be tares rather than wheat.
Nancie Lew:
How many missionaries are there in the world? They could never reach every person in the world with the gospel but if you distribute millions of Bibles everywhere someone will find one, open it, read it and understand the salvation message.
Except for over 90% of the world who can’t read. But they don’t matter, do they? Jesus wasn’t really concerned for the poor, was He? :rolleyes: The poor, the illiterate, the non-leisure class were just the least of His. Hhmmm… I wonder if anyone remembers what He said we were to do about the least of His.

Thoughts anyone?

And what about the rich getting to Heaven?
 
Within a 3 yrs period it can cover it. If a Catholics goes to Mass Daily and attend Sunday Mass. It will cover it. I’ve been a Catholic for 31 yrs… How about you? I can attest to this.

I don’t have the lectionary with me I do have the Missal both A, B, C,… and it covers 3 yrs circle…
So you read a different Bible passage at each Mass? That’s it? The priest doesn’t explain the text? This is why people need a good sermon from a Bible thumping preacher. Eighty percent of the Pentecostal church is made up of former Catholics who heard a sermon explaining the salvation message…
 
So you read a different Bible passage at each Mass? That’s it? The priest doesn’t explain the text? This is why people need a good sermon from a Bible thumping preacher. Eighty percent of the Pentecostal church is made up of former Catholics who heard a sermon explaining the salvation message…
The priest explains the Passage from the First Reading, Second Reading, and Gospel Readings. I know many Catholic priest who give very good sermons. Priest like Fr. Corapi, Fr. Peter, Fr. Paul, and others.

Many of the Former Catholics at those Penecostal Church are POORLY Catechized. If they truly know the teachings of the Church, they would not leave. Because Penecostal lacks Real Presence. There is no Eucharist, No consecrations. Jesus’ spiritual presence is there but they lack the Blessed Eucharist. Jesus in substantial form.
 
Wow, 3 great replys to a rediculous post by another obviously ignorant evangelical.

A little literate history education seems in order.
 
I’m going to be more careful about what I say around here, this whole thread is in the weeds because I was joking about people not being able to read the bible…I think. I can’t even remember anymore 😃
 
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