Protestants: When did the Church depart from Truth into Error?

[Nancie_Lew]

I dunno. The OP wanted some answers from Protestants. Apparently there are some over on CARM. He started a thread on CARM. I don’t have the stomach to go over there. Anyone else want to get some of those posts? Let’s look at what they have to say.

Whaddya gonna do if the rapture comes and you are left behind or the Moslems take over our country and persecute all of the Christians? You can’t even toughen it out on the CARM forum?

 

[Mannyfit75]

The problem is that Catholicism believes people have to have both Jesus and an organized visible Church to be saved. That’s an error in itself. In Catholicism a person just can’t have faith in Jesus alone to be saved so they have added all of these mechanical sacraments (works) for conditions of salvation.

That is not a problem. Jesus built a Church Matthew 16:18.

And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven

.

The Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ!

St. Ignatius of Antioch said in his Epistles in 107-110 AD.
Epistle to the Smyrnaeans:

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

It seem to me that you think Jesus never intended to built a Church. He did, Nancie, you have statements is completely erroneous.

Matthew 18:15-18

15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven

Also 1 Tim 3:15-16 states,

15 And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction

There is always Jesus in the Church. He is Truly Present in the Tabernacle.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Whaddya gonna do if the rapture comes and you are left behind or the Moslems take over our country and persecute all of the Christians? You can’t even toughen it out on the CARM forum?

The Rapture is a concept invited by a man name John Darby in the 19th Century. There is no such thing as a Rapture that all will be taken up into heaven before the Great Tribulation.

There will be a Second Coming, and that only Happen once. Jesus will come in His Glory, and separated the goat and sheep.

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

There is no mention of idea that all believers will be caught up. Even the Orthodox Christians believe in it.

 

[Nancie_Lew]

Malarky. This is one of the most dishonest posts I’ve read in a while.

Lets see what protestant pentacostalism is really about:

Paul’s Teachings on Speaking in Tongues

Paul warns us that tongue-speaking is not always a gift of the Spirit, but may originate out of spiritual pride and immaturity. This is why Paul called the Corinthians immature (1 Cor. 3:1-3; 14:20), and said they were seeking the wisdom of men and not God (1 Cor. 2:5,13; 3:18). Many people in the Corinthian church claimed to have the gift of tongues, but were actually mimicking the divine gift in order to gain ascendancy in the church. This caused arrogance, dissensions and jealousies among them (1 Cor. 1:10-13; 3:3; 4:6-7,18; 5:2; 11:17-22).

Tongue-speaking can also have demonic origins. When people are unfaithful and motivated by pride and not love for God, God can allow demons to enter the church to punish the unfaithful. These demons can appear holy and good, and inspire tongue-speaking and other speech, but they are really deceivers who wish to confuse the faithful and lead them away from the truth (cf. Ezek. 14:6-11; 1 Kings 22:22-23). Paul warns that some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Tim. 4:1). This is why John tells us to “test the spirits to see whether they are of God” (1 John 4:1).

Therefore, tongue-speaking can be a gift of the Holy Spirit, or may be of human or demonic origin. Paul makes several important points regarding the gift of tongues:

1 – The gift of tongues is a lesser gift from God. While speaking in tongues is a gift of the Spirit, Paul teaches that it is a lesser gift on the continuum of divine gifts from God (1 Cor. 12:10,28,30). For example, Paul says that tongues is a much lesser gift than the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 14:1-5,19,22). In fact, the gift of tongues is not even mentioned among the gifts of the Spirit in the latter books of the New Testament (Rom. 12:4-8; Eph. 4:11-12; Gal. 5:22; 1 Peter 4:7-11; 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6).

Continued here:
scripturecatholic.com/tongues.html

How is my post dishonest? Is it because I said 80% percent of the Pentecostal church is made up of former Catholics? If that is your beef I heard in from Robert Sungenis on “You Tube”. I got the link to his lecture on CAF. He also pointed out that the reason the Catholic Church is the largest church in America is because Catholics have traditionally produced more children than non-Catholic Christians not because they have been successful at evangelizing non-Catholics. youtube.com/watch?v=SNqBMz8ThFI

 

[Mannyfit75]

How is my post dishonest? Is it because I said 80% percent of the Pentecostal church is made up of former Catholics? If that is your beef I heard in from Robert Sungenis on “You Tube”. I got the link to his lecture on CAF. He also pointed out that the reason the Catholic Church is the largest church in America is because Catholics have traditionally produced more children than non-Catholic Christians not because they have been successful at evangelizing non-Catholics. youtube.com/watch?v=SNqBMz8ThFI

Well, you know the Senior Apologist in CAF is Jimmy Akin a former Protestant Evangelist. Let me see, Dave Armstrong, former Protestant, Patrick Madrid, Scott Hahn, Steve Ray, Alex Jones (former Pentecostal)…Not to mention Cardinal John Newman, Patty Bond,

 

[jmcrae]

The problem is that Catholicism believes people have to have both Jesus and an organized visible Church to be saved. That’s an error in itself. In Catholicism a person just can’t have faith in Jesus alone to be saved so they have added all of these mechanical sacraments (works) for conditions of salvation.

Jesus isn’t alone, though.

Jesus founded the Church, and Jesus is bringing the Saints into Heaven every day. If we want to be with Jesus, then we have to be where He is - with the Church, and with the Saints. It was Jesus who gave us the Sacraments and all the rules - that’s how we know we are following Jesus, and not our own made-up idea of Jesus - when we are following His rules. Jesus said, “If you love me, then you will obey my commandments.” (John 14:15)

 

[Ani_Ibi]

SyCarl:

Jesus founded the catholic church, the body of all true believers, as distinct to the Catholic Church, the institution. The church exists wherever 2 or 3 gather in his name.

What specifically is the basis of your belief that the Church is invisible? Please also stipulate what you have not accounted for in order to maintain this belief.

SyCarl:

The main error of the Roman Catholic Church to me is that it requires belief in too much. For example, the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, and Papal Infallibility.

Believing too much: do you mean learning things?

SyCarl:

Some of these may be true but are not necessary for belief, as is shown by the late declaration of these things as dogmas that have to be believed. If they did not have to be believed from the start, I don’t see how they can be added later.

SyCarl? On what basis do you believe that dogmas were not held from the start?

SyCarl:

As to the number of sacraments, most Protestants have similar practices, although they are not viewed as sacraments, except baptism and the Lord’s Supper. However I see nothing wrong in confessing to a priest as long as it is realized that God is the one who forgives.

SyCarl? Who has said that it is not God Who forgives? Can you also explain Sacraments to us? Thank you.

SyCarl:

As for things like the Real Presence in the Eucharist, we believe that Jesus is present in a real way, although the actual way is a mystery. It may be through transubstantiation but regardless, we know he is present in some way.

Can you describe the Real Presence please?

SyCarl:

We do not believe that only a priest can consecrate the communion elements. There is nothing in the Bible that says who can do the consecration.

Nothing in the Bible? What about Tradition? Did you look there?

SyCarl:

As long as we do what Jesus commands then he will be present in whatever way it is.

Except if you don’t want to do what He commands. What did Jesus say about the Real Presence?

SyCarl:

I have attended Mass and, if anything, find our celebration of the Lord’s Supper as more solemn, praying while the elements are distributed and then partaking together.

Please explain the Mass to us.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Whaddya gonna do if the rapture comes and you are left behind or the Moslems take over our country and persecute all of the Christians? You can’t even toughen it out on the CARM forum?

It’s just a waste of time, that’s all. I am extremely happy that I have the good sense to stay away from hate sites.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread has veered way off topic (in several directions) and is now closed. Please feel free to continue your discussions in new threads.

God bless-

Rachel