Protestants: Where in the Bible does it say, you only need Jesus and not the Church?

[Mannyfit75]

I often heard Evangelical Christians (Born-Again) say this. “You only need Jesus Christ not the Church.”

Um, where in the Bible does it say that the Church is not necessary since Jesus himself established a Church. You have to admit the Gospel did specifically say that Jesus established a Church upon Peter (Matthew 16:18).

So why bother separating Jesus and his Church? What Scripture Proof text do you have authority to do so? Are you a judge who issue a divorce certificate that Jesus and His Bride, the Church are now divorced?

 

[TriuneUnity]

I often heard Evangelical Christians (Born-Again) say this. “You only need Jesus Christ not the Church.”

Um, where in the Bible does it say that the Church is not necessary since Jesus himself established a Church. You have to admit the Gospel did specifically say that Jesus established a Church upon Peter (Matthew 16:18).

So why bother separating Jesus and his Church? What Scripture Proof text do you have authority to do so? Are you a judge who issue a divorce certificate that Jesus and His Bride, the Church are now divorced?

I’ll answer you here, Manny, instead of mozart’s thread.

I would not say that Christ established His Church on Peter, however, aside from that He still established it. The visible Church is the means that God uses to bring Christ to the lost; to be the vehicle that God uses to keep the “saved” in the sheepfold; the preaching of the Word, and the giving of the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion.

If you’re criticizing the modern Evanjellyfish idea of the lone ranger Christian, who simply has his bible and Jesus and doesn’t need the Church, I’m all with you.

I am not sure which Scripture they would use to support such a position, as it doesn’t exist.

 

[MrS]

I’ll answer you here, Manny, instead of mozart’s thread.

I would not say that Christ established His Church on Peter, however, aside from that He still established it. The visible Church is the means that God uses to bring Christ to the lost; to be the vehicle that God uses to keep the “saved” in the sheepfold; the preaching of the Word, and the giving of the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Communion.

If you’re criticizing the modern Evanjellyfish idea of the lone ranger Christian, who simply has his bible and Jesus and doesn’t need the Church, I’m all with you.

I am not sure which Scripture they would use to support such a position, as it doesn’t exist.

Evanjellyfish… now that is one I have to remember. Thanks for the wakeup (nonaltar)call this morning .

And I admire your civility (on lots of threads) as you disagree with the One True Church established by Jesus Himself… not by attacking, but by simply disagreeing.

For those new to CAF who may see Mannyfit75’s thread :
Yes the Catholic position, shown from Scripture and with reason is that
[1] Jesus did establish only One Church,
[2] Simple sinful human Peter is the Rock (not a cornerstone like the Lord) upon whom Jesus will leave His authority till His return,
[3] Yes the Church is a visible means of announcing the Gospel, but the sheep in it can only be feed and tended by one who received authority and direction to feed and tend… Peter, and his unbroken line of successors.
[4] and yes, the Eucharist is the source and summit of the faith, and the Real Presence of the Eucharist is found ONLY in the Catholic Church by virture of the only validly ordained priests who are so by the very Authority of Jesus the Christ.
.
.
.
.
.
[5] and after a considerable period of time, that same Church, guided by the Holy Spirit - as promised - gave the world selected inspired and inerrant writings … The Bible.

Three witnesses to the Faith… The Church, the Magisterium, and the Scriptures… don’t leave home without THEM!!

 

[Hisalone]

Its very simple really, Catholics want to complicate it.
When you have Jesus you are part of His body, the body of Christ. When you have Jesus and are part of His body you are a memeber of His Church, His community.
The problem with Catholics is that they have falsely defined church thus they cannot see this very simple point.

 

[coyotekate77]

When you have Jesus you are part of His body, the body of Christ. When you have Jesus and are part of His body you are a memeber of His Church, His community.

The problem with this statement is that Jesus called us to Unity. Those who ‘have Jesus’ only partially have separated themselves to a degree from the body. Picture, for example, a paralyzed leg. It is still part of the body, of course --but it not only cannot ‘join’ in the movement of that body, it can actually impede the body’s movement.

Remember, His, Catholic teaching is that all people are part of the Catholic Church (though some do not recognize it). That being so, they are ‘bound’ to follow the Catholic Church’s teachings (which contain ‘all’ the truth, or fullness).

Now you can have a baptized Catholic who may not follow any of the Catholic teachings --a “Catholic in Name Only”–who is just as much a ‘paralyzed leg’ as an atheist who refuses to follow any Christian or other religious teachings whatsoever.

Or you can have a baptized Protestant Christian who may not follow every one of the Catholic teachings but who follows to the fullest all the Protestant teachings which he knows (and many Protestant groups contain a great deal of core correct Catholic teaching). Even if he is not “Catholic”, that person is not a paralyzed leg but a functioning and useful limb, and helping the body to move.

Where you have trouble is having anybody (Catholic, Protestant, or nonChristian) who insists that just by having ‘one part’ of truth, they are ‘equal to’ those having the fullness of truth.

Many Protestants (and Catholics) here know that while they try their best to follow their faith teachings, they often fail. . .and when they consider each other as groups, they try to find the similarities and work together. When they note differences, they certainly support their own group but they are respectful of the others’ faith as well.

Yet some come here blindly attacking one particular group (usually Catholics. . .but not always), calling them not just ‘wrong’ but unChristian, wicked, perverse, etc., accusing them of all sorts of evil actions and judgments. . .claiming that "all that matters is to have Jesus’.

If that is their belief, then WHY are they attacking Catholics? Catholics “have Jesus” too. So why the fuss?

These attackers show their true intolerance when our good Protestant brothers and sisters come to our defense (having noted the discrepancy between the attackers’ claim of “all you need is Jesus” and “Catholics are the whore of Babylon”)–with, “Um, but Catholics believe in Jesus too.” Then the attackers start to attack Protestants (and Orthodox too!) for THEIR ‘failures’ (even though they, of course, also “have Jesus”).

Episcopalians? THEY have statues: Away with them!
Orthodox? Your icons offend the ‘true’ Christian. Away with ye!
Lutherans have “cracker” problems. Also, Luther: A. Didn’t go far enough. B. Had “Mary problems.” C. Isn’t a ‘real Christian’.
Depending on the attacker, even Baptist groups, Presbyterians, Quakers etc. have their problems too. Some of those Baptists don’t keep enough tabs on their women; some of the Presbyterians went into the UCC and are now supporters of ‘liberal’ things; Quakers of course have “the Light” instead of JESUS. . .

Even other “bible-based churches” don’t always interpret the Bible "right enough.’ Thank goodness our attacker has his own KJV and when it comes right down to it, his “Church of One”, so that he can ‘prophesy’ and tell everybody else how wrong they are while considering how wonderfully Christian and tolerant he is.

After all, he’s telling us “All you need is Jesus”. . .

Yeah. “All you need is Jesus, but you have to take Him through ME, on MY terms, in MY interpretation. . .or else.” And he ‘projects’ that onto the Catholics (or to anyone who disagrees with him on any point). . .

Classic case of the person with the log in the eye trying to take out the speck in his brother’s eye. . . .

 

[Hisalone]

The problem with this statement is that Jesus called us to Unity. Those who ‘have Jesus’ only partially have separated themselves to a degree from the body. Picture, for example, a paralyzed leg. It is still part of the body, of course --but it not only cannot ‘join’ in the movement of that body, it can actually impede the body’s movement.

Remember, His, Catholic teaching is that all people are part of the Catholic Church (though some do not recognize it). That being so, they are ‘bound’ to follow the Catholic Church’s teachings (which contain ‘all’ the truth, or fullness).

Now you can have a baptized Catholic who may not follow any of the Catholic teachings --a “Catholic in Name Only”–who is just as much a ‘paralyzed leg’ as an atheist who refuses to follow any Christian or other religious teachings whatsoever.

Or you can have a baptized Protestant Christian who may not follow every one of the Catholic teachings but who follows to the fullest all the Protestant teachings which he knows (and many Protestant groups contain a great deal of core correct Catholic teaching). Even if he is not “Catholic”, that person is not a paralyzed leg but a functioning and useful limb, and helping the body to move.

Where you have trouble is having anybody (Catholic, Protestant, or nonChristian) who insists that just by having ‘one part’ of truth, they are ‘equal to’ those having the fullness of truth.

Many Protestants (and Catholics) here know that while they try their best to follow their faith teachings, they often fail. . .and when they consider each other as groups, they try to find the similarities and work together. When they note differences, they certainly support their own group but they are respectful of the others’ faith as well.

Yet some come here blindly attacking one particular group (usually Catholics. . .but not always), calling them not just ‘wrong’ but unChristian, wicked, perverse, etc., accusing them of all sorts of evil actions and judgments. . .claiming that "all that matters is to have Jesus’.

If that is their belief, then WHY are they attacking Catholics? Catholics “have Jesus” too. So why the fuss?

These attackers show their true intolerance when our good Protestant brothers and sisters come to our defense (having noted the discrepancy between the attackers’ claim of “all you need is Jesus” and “Catholics are the whore of Babylon”)–with, “Um, but Catholics believe in Jesus too.” Then the attackers start to attack Protestants (and Orthodox too!) for THEIR ‘failures’ (even though they, of course, also “have Jesus”).

Episcopalians? THEY have statues: Away with them!
Orthodox? Your icons offend the ‘true’ Christian. Away with ye!
Lutherans have “cracker” problems. Also, Luther: A. Didn’t go far enough. B. Had “Mary problems.” C. Isn’t a ‘real Christian’.
Depending on the attacker, even Baptist groups, Presbyterians, Quakers etc. have their problems too. Some of those Baptists don’t keep enough tabs on their women; some of the Presbyterians went into the UCC and are now supporters of ‘liberal’ things; Quakers of course have “the Light” instead of JESUS. . .

Even other “bible-based churches” don’t always interpret the Bible "right enough.’ Thank goodness our attacker has his own KJV and when it comes right down to it, his “Church of One”, so that he can ‘prophesy’ and tell everybody else how wrong they are while considering how wonderfully Christian and tolerant he is.

After all, he’s telling us “All you need is Jesus”. . .

Yeah. “All you need is Jesus, but you have to take Him through ME, on MY terms, in MY interpretation. . .or else.” And he ‘projects’ that onto the Catholics (or to anyone who disagrees with him on any point). . .

Classic case of the person with the log in the eye trying to take out the speck in his brother’s eye. . . .

In Christ we have unity. When you place Christ who is the Godhead living inside you ahead of every man made concept----yes your definition of “Church” is a man made concept, then there is unity. Find Christ not AHis Church once you do then you will see that His Church is a much wider concept than you can see now.

 

[ibkc]

Hisalone, you still haven’t answered the original question.

 

[Hisalone]

Its very simple really, Catholics want to complicate it.
When you have Jesus you are part of His body, the body of Christ. When you have Jesus and are part of His body you are a memeber of His Church, His community.
The problem with Catholics is that they have falsely defined church thus they cannot see this very simple point.

 

[coyotekate77]

We’ve already noted that the Church is a much wider concept than you appear to find it, His.

Everybody is a member of Christ’s Church (which is the Catholic Churchh). Not everybody possesses the ‘fullness’ of His teaching, even if they happen to be baptized Catholics (because we all fail to follow Him at some times), but we are not simply ‘members’ if we think that He did not establish a ‘visible’ Church and that ‘his church’ is ONLY a matter of 'accepting Him."

He did establish One True Church (as Scripture tells us) and that Church is not ‘invisible’ only, or a matter of simply ‘believing’. You cannot be part of the ‘invisible’ and ignore the ‘visible’.

 

[wanner47]

Its very simple really, Catholics want to complicate it.
When you have Jesus you are part of His body, the body of Christ. When you have Jesus and are part of His body you are a memeber of His Church, His community.
The problem with Catholics is that they have falsely defined church thus they cannot see this very simple point.

Why do you think that your definition of “church” is correct (as opposed to the Catholic definition)? In other words, how do you know you are right and Catholics are wrong?

 

[JohnnyReb]

Its very simple really, Catholics want to complicate it.
When you have Jesus you are part of His body, the body of Christ. When you have Jesus and are part of His body you are a memeber of His Church, His community.
The problem with Catholics is that they have falsely defined church thus they cannot see this very simple point.

Scripture reference please.

 

[Hisalone]

Scripture reference please.

John 1:12-14
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

BTW those of you that mock altar calls —an altar call is the recieving of Him.

John3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

1Jo 3:1-10
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!* Therefore the world does not know us,+ because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.’

 

[wanner47]

John 1:12-14
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This says nothing about the definition of a “church.”

BTW those of you that mock altar calls —an altar call is the recieving of Him.

John3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

I don’t see anything about altar calls in this passage.

1Jo 3:1-10
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!* Therefore the world does not know us,+ because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.’

Nor in this one.

 

[JohnnyReb]

John 1:12-14
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, **but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. **22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

The work of God is to believe in the one that he sent (John 6:29)

29Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

But later on in John 6, Jesus gives explains what it means to believe in him

49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us **his flesh **to eat?”

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For **my flesh is real food **and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.

If one does not accept the words of Christ and what he says here, it is very questionable whether they believe in him completely, regardless if they claim to have “faith” in him, or are “born again” or accept Christ at an alter call.

BTW those of you that mock altar calls —an altar call is the recieving of Him.

John3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Where is the alter call in this passage? Why is it even necessary? You can accept Christ right where you are. You won’t find an alter call in the gospels because Christ never used them.

One does not accept Christ’s flesh and blood at an alter call.

 

[sarahpackars]

matthew 6: 25-34, is the part of the bible titles Dependence on God.

 

[Ruthie]

I just did a few searches on my Bible study software around the word “church.”

It is used 91 times in the KJV NT. Of these, 80 refer to “the church.” This alone contradicts the idea of “me, Jesus, and the Bible.”

Christ refers to “My church” in Mt 16:18 - not “My people” or “My followers,” but “My church.” He did not speak of having only Himself and the Bible - He founded a church.

Also important is this: “For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. ****For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” 1 Cor 11:18-19 (KJV)

Note that Paul says that it is heresies that make plain “they which are approved.” In other words, those who do not fall for heresies are the approved.

This means that the approved all believed the same thing. Those who had different understandings were heretics.

No, I find nothing in the Bible that says we are to do without a church. And I will stick with the Church founded on by Jesus on Peter!

Ruthie

 

[MrS]

I just did a few searches on my Bible study software around the word “church.”

It is used 91 times in the KJV NT. Of these, 80 refer to “the church.” This alone contradicts the idea of “me, Jesus, and the Bible.”

Christ refers to “My church” in Mt 16:18 - not “My people” or “My followers,” but “My church.” He did not speak of having only Himself and the Bible - He founded a church.

Also important is this: “For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.” 1 Cor 11:18-19 (KJV)

Note that Paul says that it is heresies that make plain “they which are approved.” In other words, those who do not fall for heresies are the approved.

This means that the approved all believed the same thing. Those who had different understandings were heretics.

No, I find nothing in the Bible that says we are to do without a church. And I will stick with the Church founded on by Jesus on Peter!

Ruthie

Thanks Ruthie… good post

It can also be noted that the very first use of the word Church in all of Scripture… is in Matt 16:18

It replaces all the possible uses of temple, found in the OT. It is specific to what Jesus was doing… starting and building a group that would be His, and … while the King was away, the chief steward - Peter - would be given the keys of authority.

Now, Peter can’t live forever… but the office of Peter - the chief steward, the vicar, the spiritual leader, the Pope - will survive until Christ, the King, comes again.

What I am leading to is this… Only the Catholic Church can or should use the term Church. Over time, and misuse, the groups who have defected or just arisen out of nothing, have also used the word Church in the “titles”. Not much we can do about what words they choose.

But it can be noted that I most often refer to The Catholic Church, and to all others as faith communities. This is done out of respect to the Catholic Church.

.

 

[happygal]

Just tell those who said they don’t need church by God only. Who say so !!! Don’t put God in , coz God never say it!!! You won’t learn if you never go church, just like how you write without someone teaching you. Living in Self denial state is dangerous

 

[Pastor_Jim]

I often heard Evangelical Christians (Born-Again) say this. “You only need Jesus Christ not the Church.”

Um, where in the Bible does it say that the Church is not necessary since Jesus himself established a Church. You have to admit the Gospel did specifically say that Jesus established a Church upon Peter (Matthew 16:18).

So why bother separating Jesus and his Church? What Scripture Proof text do you have authority to do so? Are you a judge who issue a divorce certificate that Jesus and His Bride, the Church are now divorced?

Sounds like a typical Catholic strawman. I don’t know of anybody who says that we don’t need the church.

I like the way you create a strawman and then poison the well against any answers you might receive by calling them “prooftexts” without even knowing what they are.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Sounds like a typical Catholic strawman. I don’t know of anybody who says that we don’t need the church.

I like the way you create a strawman and then poison the well against any answers you might receive by calling them “prooftexts” without even knowing what they are.

Ahem, actually your fellow Protestants who I spoken too in real life have claimed and told me that they do not need the church. I of course disagree. You do need Jesus and His Church. The Church and Jesus are one. Fr. Corapi often said in his lecture that separating the Church and Jesus is a false dichtomy.

Believe or not, there are some Liberal Catholics who also believe you do not need the Church and that your belief is God and living a good life is good enough.

It’s strange though, they have no Biblical proof text to justify their actions.