Protestants: Where is the Bible in the Bible?

[Singinbeauty]

Manny is right. The Bible did not exist as we have it today before the Council of Hippo. That’s not the same as saying the writings were not inspired until the Council of Hippo.

Thank you. I think we are on the same track… It may not have existed as it does today but it still existed.

Without those inspired writings the bible would be nothing but a book jacket with nothing in between. The bible is the consolodated works of inspired text, correct? So whether that text is combined within the same book or separate it is still the Word of God, the Bible. Those writings have been part of the structure of the Church since the beginning. I don’t know why this is so hard. The Church was learning from these texts then just as it is now. Since the bible IS these texts (the inspired works written so long ago and taught) then in essence the bible existed back then, just not in the form it is now. Those texts are the bible and the bible is those texts. You can’t have one without the other.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Thank you. I think we are on the same track… It may not have existed as it does today but it still existed.

Without those inspired writings the bible would be nothing but a book jacket with nothing in between. The bible is the consolodated works of inspired text, correct? So whether that text is combined within the same book or separate it is still the Word of God, the Bible. Those writings have been part of the structure of the Church since the beginning. I don’t know why this is so hard. The Church was learning from these texts then just as it is now. Since the bible IS these texts (the inspired works written so long ago and taught) then in essence the bible existed back then, just not in the form it is now. Those texts are the bible and the bible is those texts. You can’t have one without the other.

But your version still does not address HOW it was decided which writings where inspired and which were not. Amongst all the writings that were out there at the time, which were correct? Contrary to popular thought today, there were educated people who could read at the time. Jews were educated in Hebrew, even though it was a dead language (as Latin was considered by my father’s generation). There were so many writings out there at the time that did not jive with our view of Christianity today (Nestoriansim, Arianisam, etc) They all used the common writings of the day.

 

[Singinbeauty]

But your version still does not address HOW it was decided which writings where inspired and which were not. Amongst all the writings that were out there at the time, which were correct? Contrary to popular thought today, there were educated people who could read at the time. Jews were educated in Hebrew, even though it was a dead language (as Latin was considered by my father’s generation). There were so many writings out there at the time that did not jive with our view of Christianity today (Nestoriansim, Arianisam, etc) They all used the common writings of the day.

HOW it was decided… I know that you are just trying to get me to admit that it was the catholic church that decided this… *sigh… I have never denied this. BUT it was God who decided it and told the catholic church to compile the bible as they did. The writings that are not included in the bible are not inspired. My point is that those that were included were inspired even before the council decided it and the Church followed those writings. So the bible, in essence, did in fact exist while the Church was growing. It doesn’t matter that those other un-inspired works were around, that isn’t what I have been talking about. I have been talking about what is in the bible. Even tho there were other writings out there it doesn’t negate the fact that those that are included in the bible existed WAY before the Church finally put it together in one convenient spot.

 

[byoby]

The bible was written by Jews, I do not beleive that any Church would dare take credit for the “Word of God” but only thank Him for it. God used the Jews to write and preserve the OT, does not mean that they all got the point of it.

 

[Mannyfit75]

HOW it was decided… I know that you are just trying to get me to admit that it was the catholic church that decided this… *sigh… I have never denied this. **BUT it was **God who decided ****it and told the Catholic Church to compile the bible as they did.

So you admit the Holy Spirit guided the Church which books were inspired in the Bible. There is no shame in admitting that God inspired the Catholic Church which books in the Bible are inspired.

The writings that are not included in the bible are not inspired. My point is that those that were included were inspired even before the council decided it and the Church followed those writings.

I have to disagree with this. During the time of the Early Church Fathers, the Fathers of the Church were not united which books in the Bible were inspired. In fact there were dispites in some of the NT text as truly to be inspired.

Case in point. Wikipedia states,

By the early 200’s, Origen may have been using the same 27 books as in the modern New Testament, though there were still disputes over the canonicity of Hebrews, James, II Peter, II and III John, and Revelation.

Likewise by 200 the Muratorian fragment shows that there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to what is now the New Testament, which included the four gospels and argued against objections to them.[6] Thus, while there was a good measure of debate in the Early Church over the New Testament canon, the major writings were accepted by almost all Christians by the middle of the second century.[7]

In his Easter letter of 367, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of exactly the same books as what would become the New Testament canon,[8] and he used the word “canonized” (kanonizomena) in regards to them.[9] The African Synod of Hippo, in 393, approved the New Testament, as it stands today, together with the Septuagint books, a decision that was repeated by Councils of Carthage in 397 and 419.

Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

So the bible, in essence, did in fact exist while the Church was growing. It doesn’t matter that those other un-inspired works were around, that isn’t what I have been talking about. I have been talking about what is in the bible. Even tho there were other writings out there it doesn’t negate the fact that those that are included in the bible existed WAY before the Church finally put it together in one convenient spot.

I disagree. Of course you already know that. If you say it was existed when the Church, how would you tell which books were inspired. The final decision was made by the Church Council, the same list in Council of Hippo, and Carthage. That list is same that was made in Council of Trent.

 

[Singinbeauty]

So you admit the Holy Spirit guided the Church which books were inspired in the Bible. There is no shame in admitting that God inspired the Catholic Church which books in the Bible are inspired.

Funny thing is, I never denied nor tried to dispute this. Just because I am what you call ‘protestant’ doesn’t mean I don’t give credit where it is due.

I have to disagree with this. During the time of the Early Church Fathers, the Fathers of the Church were not united which books in the Bible were inspired. In fact there were dispites in some of the NT text as truly to be inspired.

You seem to want to say that these texts weren’t inspired until the catholic church declared them as such…

I disagree. Of course you already know that. If you say it was existed when the Church, how would you tell which books were inspired. The final decision was made by the Church Council, the same list in Council of Hippo, and Carthage. That list is same that was made in Council of Trent.

So they weren’t inspired until the 1500’s?

 

[Mannyfit75]

So they weren’t inspired until the 1500’s?

They were inspired. If you look at the list of Canon in Trent. It is the same list as those in Hippo in 393 AD and Carthage in 396 AD).

The Council of Trent only re-affirmed the Books already inspired. Even the Latin Vulgate written in 382 AD had these same list.

Pope Damascus I, at the Council of Rome in 382, confirmed the canon of Scripture as follows. Pope Damascus I said:
**
“Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus, one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books”

Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, one to the Corinthians [2 Corinthians is not mentioned], one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews.

Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book.

Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.

Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

(Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]). **

This canon was reaffirmed at the Council of Hippo in 393; the Council of Carthage in 397; by Pope Innocent I in 405; by the Council of Carthage in 419; by the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 (implicitly by approval of Council of Carthage, 419); and by the Council of Florence in 1442, and the Council of Trent closed the Canon of Scripture.

 

[Calvinator]

They were inspired. If you look at the list of Canon in Trent. It is the same list as those in Hippo in 393 AD and Carthage in 396 AD).

The Council of Trent only re-affirmed the Books already inspired. Even the Latin Vulgate written in 382 AD had these same list.

Pope Damascus I, at the Council of Rome in 382, confirmed the canon of Scripture as follows. Pope Damascus I said:
**
“Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus, one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books”

Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, one to the Corinthians [2 Corinthians is not mentioned], one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews.

Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book.

Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.

Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

(Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]). **

This canon was reaffirmed at the Council of Hippo in 393; the Council of Carthage in 397; by Pope Innocent I in 405; by the Council of Carthage in 419; by the Second Council of Nicaea in 787 (implicitly by approval of Council of Carthage, 419); and by the Council of Florence in 1442, and the Council of Trent closed the Canon of Scripture.

Manny,

Just a couple of questions:
a.) Do you agree that Trent was the first infallible declaration of the canon?

b.) Do you agree that a believer had some leeway or freedom in what he or she accepted as canonical with regards to the OT, at least up until Trent made it’s decree?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny,

Just a couple of questions:
a.) Do you agree that Trent was the first infallible declaration of the canon?

In response to the heresy of Protestantism, they had to close the Canon of Scripture. It is infallibility declare much like a response to the heresy of Arianism in 321 AD in the Council of Constantinople.

b.) Do you agree that a believer had some leeway or freedom in what he or she accepted as canonical with regards to the OT, at least up until Trent made it’s decree?

The believer would know. Before the Reformation the Gospel was read in the Catholic Liturgical Mass throughout Europe. These readings include OT writings as well as NT. They would not for certain had not the Church declare the NT text Canonical.

 

[Calvinator]

In response to the heresy of Protestantism, they had to close the Canon of Scripture. It is infallibility declare much like a response to the heresy of Arianism in 321 AD in the Council of Constantinople.

The believer would know. Before the Reformation the Gospel was read in the Catholic Liturgical Mass throughout Europe. These readings include OT writings as well as NT. They would not for certain had not the Church declare the NT text Canonical.

Manny, can you answer with a simple yes or no?

I am not trying to be rude, but would like your opinion so to help me, please answer yes or no to the below questions.

Just a couple of questions:
a.) Do you agree that Trent was the first infallible declaration of the canon?

b.) Do you agree that a believer had some leeway or freedom in what he or she accepted as canonical with regards to the OT, at least up until Trent made it’s decree?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny, can you answer with a simple yes or no?

I am not trying to be rude, but would like your opinion so to help me, please answer yes or no to the below questions.

Just a couple of questions:
a.) Do you agree that Trent was the first infallible declaration of the canon?

Yes in response to the heresy of Protestantism.

b.) Do you agree that a believer had some leeway or freedom in what he or she accepted as canonical with regards to the OT, at least up until Trent made it’s decree?

Depends on the situation based on the believers’ religious upbring. There is neither a yes or no answer on this question.

They would know if they are properly taught by they parents. The Bible also was not readly available to everyone back then. The Bible then was rare and expensive, and only the rich can afford to buy. In fact the Churches had to chain the Bible so they would not be stolen. This practice was continued even after the Reformation.

Back then, the majority of Europeans could not read. The only way they received the Bible or the words from the Gospel was in the Mass Liturgy.

 

[Calvinator]

Yes in response to the heresy of Protestantism.

Depends on the situation based on the believers’ religious upbring. There is neither a yes or no answer on this question.

They would know if they are properly taught by they parents. The Bible also was not readly available to everyone back then. In fact the Churches had to chain the Bible so they would not be stolen. This practice was continued even after the Reformation.

Back then, the majority of Europeans could not read. The only way they received the Bible or the words from the Gospel was in the Mass Liturgy.

Thanks Manny.

 

[byoby]

Was the Mass Liturgy taught in a native language? I know that it was preached in the Latin language in America quite recently or is the Mass Liturgy different than Mass itself?

Since the accusation of heresy is being thrown around, what about the babylonianism heresy and its influence on the Catholic Church?

Babylonianism is something I am finding that explains the origins of controversial Catholic doctrines. If it is true than it explains everything to me. I have only recently found this subject and have only done limited searches on it. Is there an official Catholic response to these accusations?

 

[Lampo]

a.) Do you agree that Trent was the first infallible declaration of the canon?

I know this question isn’t for me, but I have this thought. I thought there have only been two infallible declarations - 1) Immaculate Conception, 2) Assumption.

 

[MariaG]

What must you do specifically to be saved?

John 3:16 is a good guide.

But we also need to remember that even Satan believes so it can’t be all.

The biggest problem with your statement though, is that we can’t DO anything to be saved. It is a free gift from God that can’t be earned.

Time to go to work. I really need to only keep one current subscription. I just can’t keep up anymore

Ah well.

 

[Calvinator]

I know this question isn’t for me, but I have this thought. I thought there have only been two infallible declarations - 1) Immaculate Conception, 2) Assumption.

I don’t know exactly how many infallible statements the RCC has made but I would have to believe that this is one of them.

But, maybe a Catholic poster here will answer your question 'cuz I really don’t know.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Manny, can you answer with a simple yes or no?

I am not trying to be rude, but would like your opinion so to help me, please answer yes or no to the below questions.

Just a couple of questions:
a.) Do you agree that Trent was the first infallible declaration of the canon?

The Church only made declarations when heresies sprung up. That is, everybody believed in something, like, let’s say the Trinity, and then Ariansim rose up, that Jesus was not God, so they had to officially REAFFIRM the Trinity.

Same with Council of Ephesus 431 declaring Mary as mother of God, and against Nestoriansim.

So, likewise, everybody accepted the Canon, (there were many unapproved ones floating around), then ML came up with one that threw out the Deutoricanonical books, James, and Revelation (later he put them back). So, the Church had to for a Council to REAFFIRM which books belonged in the Bible.

b.) Do you agree that a believer had some leeway or freedom in what he or she accepted as canonical with regards to the OT, at least up until Trent made it’s decree?

NO. But there were many unapproved versions. These were probably the heretical Bible’s burned by the Church

 

[qui_est_ce]

I don’t know exactly how many infallible statements the RCC has made but I would have to believe that this is one of them.

But, maybe a Catholic poster here will answer your question 'cuz I really don’t know.

The doctrine Infallibility in faith and morals was not formally declared until the 1st Vatican Council Pope Pius IX opened in 1864

 

[qui_est_ce]

What must you do specifically to be saved?

Is this part of the interpretation thingy we have been disccusing? If so, it’s a bit complicated. It is by God’s Grace that we are saved. Nothing we can do by our own merit can save us, not even belief in God. But God loves us and made us to be saved, even though we don’t deserve it. (John 1:16-17 and John 3:16)

In the above context, this is what God wants us to do so He can save us:

Repent and be Baptized, (Acts 3:37-41)

Eat His body and drink His blood (John 6:51-58)

Do good works through Grace (Beatitudes, be Salt, be a light not hidden Matthew 5). Perform works of Charity in His name (the Final Judgement and Math 12:35-37 a good person bears good fruit).

 

[Lampo]

What must you do specifically to be saved?

Persevere in faith, hope and love.