Protestants: Where is the Bible in the Bible?

[qui_est_ce]

What questions have i repeatedly asked? Have you noticed how they were answered? Have i asked the same questions of the same individual or did i ask different people the same types of questions with the hopes that the discussion could proceed?

Please keep in mind that guanapore is out to slander me and that is sin.

You must think I have all day to look at the various threads and posts you have made over the last few months. Why don’t you click on your name and look at the posts you made. It’s all there.

 

[justasking4]

You must think I have all day to look at the various threads and posts you have made over the last few months. Why don’t you click on your name and look at the posts you made. It’s all there.

I don’t know anything about you just as you don’t know about me. You made the claim that i am doing some wrong so you must have read all my posts to make this accusation.

Let me ask you: have you ever repeated yourself in your posts?

 

[qui_est_ce]

I don’t know anything about you

Actually, you know a lot about me. You have read my posts, you can see my profile.

just as you don’t know about me.

Have you been dishonest?

You made the claim that i am doing some wrong so you must have read all my posts to make this accusation.

I claimed you repeat yourself everywhere and don’t listen to the answers. In earlier posts I challenged you to honest debate.

Let me ask you: have you ever repeated yourself in your posts?

Yes, repeatedly to you.

 

[Montalban]

First of all, I do not believe in sola scriptura. Next, the Trinity can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by about 20 Scripture verses and the entire preachings of Christ himself also proves this.

Heretics used Scripture too! Further down in your argument you make some kind of objection to Catholic claims to be the church simply because they disagree with my church (Orthodox).

I didn’t hear Jesus preaching about deep devotions to Mary.

He didn’t need to. She herself said she’d be blessed through the ages, and an Angel praised her.

Your statement that my position is that I believe in some of what Catholicism teaches but not all could be found true with most all folks in all churches. Your position is that the Catholic church contains all truth. My position is that God is all truth and he gave us his inspired word to be the closest and most accurate item to be with us. I can hardly dispute this because we have that same word now 2,000 years later. The Church has changed, the Scriptures have not. Is tradition important? Of course it is, but it must square with Scripture.

The Church* is the Body of Christ on earth – that is why it can not err.

Your statement of relying upon the authority of the church really goes back to the early Christian church that Jesus founded. You can argue that the Catholic church was the early church and the Orthodox Christians will argue with you on that.

I don’t understand your objection. Just ‘cause we’re both arguing we’re the church, doesn’t mean both are wrong!

We don’t have Wednesday night Bible study but what is wrong with that? This is not a tradition.

It is if you do it regularly

Breathing is not a tradition either but we couldn’t do it without the grace of God.

It’s not the same thing.

*-I believe this is the Orthodox. Catholics would believe that it is their church – however the point remains that Jesus did establish a church here and said it would not fail. Just because we argue with each other doesn’t mean we’re both wrong. You should in fact choose one or the other, based on assessments of facts.

For Protestant churches are all man made.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Heretics used Scripture too! Further down in your argument you make some kind of objection to Catholic claims to be the church simply because they disagree with my church (Orthodox).

He didn’t need to. She herself said she’d be blessed through the ages, and an Angel praised her.

The Church* is the Body of Christ on earth – that is why it can not err.

I don’t understand your objection. Just ‘cause we’re both arguing we’re the church, doesn’t mean both are wrong!

It is if you do it regularly

It’s not the same thing.

*-I believe this is the Orthodox. Catholics would believe that it is their church – however the point remains that Jesus did establish a church here and said it would not fail. Just because we argue with each other doesn’t mean we’re both wrong. You should in fact choose one or the other, based on assessments of facts.

For Protestant churches are all man made.

For an Orthodox Christian, you **pretty clear **about your position on this matter. I think the Catholic Church and the Orthodox agree that the Church that Jesus Christ establish is a visible Church, not just spiritual.

 

[justasking4]

qui est ce;2856048]Actually, you know a lot about me. You have read my posts, you can see my profile.

Huh? All i see are just some facts about you but i know nothing else that would make me think i know you in the least. Your profile tells me nothing about your upbringing, your dreams, pains or any history.
In the same way you don’t nor does anyone on these formns know me. So please, don’t presume that you do. I don’t.

Have you been dishonest?

No.
Have you been dishonest with me?

I claimed you repeat yourself everywhere and don’t listen to the answers. In earlier posts I challenged you to honest debate.

There are so many posts and so much reading that its easy for me to miss things. What specifically did you challenge me to debate that i might have missed?

Yes, repeatedly to you.

Then you are a far better person than i am.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Heretics used Scripture too! Further down in your argument you make some kind of objection to Catholic claims to be the church simply because they disagree with my church (Orthodox).

He didn’t need to. She herself said she’d be blessed through the ages, and an Angel praised her.

The Church* is the Body of Christ on earth – that is why it can not err.

I don’t understand your objection. Just ‘cause we’re both arguing we’re the church, doesn’t mean both are wrong!

It is if you do it regularly

It’s not the same thing.

*-I believe this is the Orthodox. Catholics would believe that it is their church – however the point remains that Jesus did establish a church here and said it would not fail. Just because we argue with each other doesn’t mean we’re both wrong. You should in fact choose one or the other, based on assessments of facts.

For Protestant churches are all man made.

Thanks Mont for responding to my invitation. I find it most miraculous, that although we don’t follow the same Patriarch, we still subscribe to the same Truths. My understanding is some externals, not dogmas separate us. (married priesthood, etc). You guys are so much more devoted to Marian Traditions and Liturgy. I think that under Pope Benedict XVI, much will be accomplished in bringing us back together. Pope JP II, had so many issues to deal with, Vatican II (much) and Communism. And he dealt with them admirably.

God Bless

 

[qui_est_ce]

For an Orthodox Christian, you **pretty clear **about your position on this matter. I think the Catholic Church and the Orthodox agree that the Church that Jesus Christ establish is a visible Church, not just spiritual.

Dear Manny, I am glad to see you back. You are always in my prayers. I admire how you respond from the hellhole in which you find yourself. Perhaps more of us need to experience that in order to appreciate the freedoms we have.
:knight2:

 

[MariaG]

I believe this is the Orthodox. Catholics would believe that it is their church – however the point remains that Jesus did establish a church here and said it would not fail. Just because we argue with each other doesn’t mean we’re both wrong. You should in fact choose one or the other, based on assessments of facts.

For Protestant churches are all man made.

Yup, for me, the question when one truly researches it should one become, Orthodox or Catholic?

I have only met a few whom I believe have a valid reason for staying, others convince themselves that the Catholic Church teaches falsely whereby I would contend that they should then sign up for a meeting with an Orthodox priest pronto!

 

[guanophore]

What questions have i repeatedly asked? Have you noticed how they were answered? Have i asked the same questions of the same individual or did i ask different people the same types of questions with the hopes that the discussion could proceed?

Different folks, different threads. Continually on the prowl for Catholics uneducated or weak in their faith that will be susceptible to the snare.

Please keep in mind that guanapore is out to slander me and that is sin.

It is not slander, ja4, to point out what you are doing, and to refer back to your own posts. It is you who have stated (repeatedly) that Sacred Tradition is the “speculation of men”. If there is any slander, it is in making such a statement! It calls Jesus a liar, or a weakling.

Also you are the one who admitted that your purpose here is to show Catholics the “truth”, which is that our leaders have fallen away from the truth.

And well they should question. The scriptures warn of false teachers in the church who will decieve many. That is why you should hold your church accountable to what the scriptures teach. When you study the marian doctrines in light of the scriptures you will find that the support is not there. What you must do is be on guard against false teachers in your own church.

The scriptures do warn of false teachers in the church itself. There was no promise given by Christ that this would not happen.
Thats the issue. There are no biblical roots for these marian doctrines. Why do you believe such a thing if the scriptures never teach such a thing?

(talking about Sacred Tradition) might get someone who reads these posts to rethink their position.

Do you deny that you wrote these things, ja4? Do you deny that you believe that false teachers have come into the Catholic Church, and corrupted it by teaching unbiblical doctrine?

Slander means making up things about people. All I have done is notice what your position is, and make sure others notice it as well. Your questions are directed toward making CAtholics question their faith.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Your questions are directed toward making CAtholics question their faith.

Well, I hate to say this, but his questions really opened my eyes to how ignorant people are of history and truth. JA4 has helped me be stronger in the knowledge and truth of the Catholic Church. Now that I know the tactics these people used, I will be more ready with a reponse. I have some cherry picked verses of my own buildt up now. (Of course, I can explain in context, if required). But it seems a lot of don’t care about context. They just keep slinging the same ones and change the subject when they have no answer.

Even though this thread has been successfully derailed, our Truths and understandings of the Truth have not been derailed.:nope:

 

[guanophore]

In the same way you don’t nor does anyone on these formns know me. So please, don’t presume that you do. I don’t.

We know what we read, ja4, and if it is true that you have not been dishonest with us, as you say, then we can take them at face value.

Therefore we know you believe the following:

1. 
   *]The Traditions considered Sacred to Catholics are mere"speculations of men".
   *]Nothing that is not in the Bible is inspired or inerrant, including the Church founded by Jesus
   *]Apostolic Succession is not evident to you in the Bible, therefore, it does not exist.
   *]The Marian doctrines are examples of “speculations of men” that have been allowed to creep into the church doctrine by leaders that have been led away by false teachers.
   *]Catholics are superficial, and don’t really want to know the truth.
   *]Catholics don’t know the scripture very well, because if they did, they would no longer be Catholic.
   *]Catholics fail in their duty to confront and depose the leaders who are teaching false doctrines.
   These are a few examples of what I have read in your posts. I am sure there are more, but these give quite a clear picture about many important things you believe.

 

[guanophore]

Well, I hate to say this, but his questions really opened my eyes to how ignorant people are of history and truth.

Good! All things work together for the good! Even anti-Catholic rhetoric can bear good fruit when it falls upon fertile ground. Don’t feel bad, though, I have spent many, many hours of research to prepare responses to his questions. I don’t regret that either, even more so for the many lurkers that are here. If you read on the home page you can see there are usually 10 times the reader as there are posters.

JA4 has helped me be stronger in the knowledge and truth of the Catholic Church. Now that I know the tactics these people used, I will be more ready with a reponse. I have some cherry picked verses of my own buildt up now. (Of course, I can explain in context, if required). But it seems a lot of don’t care about context. They just keep slinging the same ones and change the subject when they have no answer.

It is commendable that you have used the experience to strengthen your faith. My point to ja4 is that he is not likely to find any other kind of Catholic here. Most here are like yourself, that are willing to read, research,a nd give an account for the hope that is within. The people he is looking to find, that will abandon their faith, are not likely to be here.

Even though this thread has been successfully derailed, our Truths and understandings of the Truth have not been derailed.:nope:

I think the thread fulfilled it’s purpose, which was to make the point that the contents of what is in the Bible is no where infallibly proclaimed in the Bible.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Good! All things work together for the good! Even anti-Catholic rhetoric can bear good fruit when it falls upon fertile ground. Don’t feel bad, though, I have spent many, many hours of research to prepare responses to his questions. I don’t regret that either, even more so for the many lurkers that are here. If you read on the home page you can see there are usually 10 times the reader as there are posters.

One never knows all the lives one will touch, for good or for bad. I can tell you’ve spent much time, and your insights have deepened my respect for the Magesterium.

It is commendable that you have used the experience to strengthen your faith. My point to ja4 is that he is not likely to find any other kind of Catholic here. Most here are like yourself, that are willing to read, research,a nd give an account for the hope that is within. The people he is looking to find, that will abandon their faith, are not likely to be here.

I am not so sure he’d find many who would abandon their faith, even if they were not as well researched as we are. I know this has been my theme, but it’s worth REPEATING (sorry ja4). Little old ladies going to daily mass with their Rosaries are huge witnesses to the Faith. They know what they need to do, but they would never say they are “saved.” They might not even be able to tell you why this is. They couldn’t explain all the Theology behind it, but they know it’s true, BECAUSE FATHER SAID IT, and FATHER FOLLOWS THE ORIGINAL CHURCH OF THE APOSTLES, and the POPE, successor to PETER. So I say “Wo to those priests who use their office in contradiction to the Magesterium.”

It has been told on a thread here that this kind of witness started them on their journey to the CC.

I also don’t think JA4’s trolling will collect so called “liberal catholics.” (Liberation theology, etc) they know too much. He may get some weak ones who weren’t really sure and didn’t care, but maybe that’s for the good. Rosalind Moss converted from Judaism to Evangelical to Catholic. It’s a journey. Maybe he’ll set some hearts on fire, and that fire will bring people home to Rome.

I think the thread fulfilled it’s purpose, which was to make the point that the contents of what is in the Bible is no where infallibly proclaimed in the Bible.

Well, please, that’s been said a number of times, stop REPEATING yourself!

 

[BrewMax]

He didn’t need to. She herself said she’d be blessed through the ages, and an Angel praised her.

I do not agree with you. Mary is blessed and Scripture confirms this but Jesus never gives rise to presenting her with deep devotion and in fact Luke 11 proclaims that those that keep God’s word are even more blessed. St. Paul in all his preaching never lended to these either.

 

[BrewMax]

For an Orthodox Christian, you **pretty clear **about your position on this matter. I think the Catholic Church and the Orthodox agree that the Church that Jesus Christ establish is a visible Church, not just spiritual.

I personally know a devout Orthodox Christian who experienced a vision or a glimpse if you will that would disagree with you vehimately.

 

[Orionthehunter]

I do not agree with you. Mary is blessed and Scripture confirms this but Jesus never gives rise to presenting her with deep devotion and in fact Luke 11 proclaims that those that keep God’s word are even more blessed. St. Paul in all his preaching never lended to these either.

John 19: 26-27-- When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

So many times, non-Catholics will claim that Christ isn’t talking to just the Apostles (Priests & Bishops) but to all of his followers. Using this logic, Jesus is talking to us all. And since home is an intimate place (hearth), it stands to reason that we should take her into our heart.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I personally know a devout Orthodox Christian who experienced a vision or a glimpse if you will that would disagree with you vehimately.

Well, he couldn’t be devout Orthodox if he disagrees with with the teachings of the Orthodox Church of Montalban (who Manny was quoting). It’s possible the vision was from the Devil. Anyway, it’s private revelation, and it has never been accepted by either Church as valid. So there is no credibility here to this vision.

Is it correct to say “Orthodox Catholic?”

 

[qui_est_ce]

I do not agree with you. Mary is blessed and Scripture confirms this but Jesus never gives rise to presenting her with deep devotion and in fact Luke 11 proclaims that those that keep God’s word are even more blessed. St. Paul in all his preaching never lended to these either.

Luke Chapter 1:
30
Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found **favor **with God.
Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."
46
And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47
my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
48
For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
49
The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

*“The salutation of the angel Gabriel – chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace, a supernatural, godlike state of soul, which finds its explanation only in the Immaculate Conception of Mary.” *(New Advent.org)

St. Ignatius of Antioch, after describing Jesus as “Son of Mary and Son of God”, Theotokos, goes on to tell the Ephesians (7, 18, and 19) that “our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived in the womb of Mary according to a dispensation of the seed of David but also of the Holy Ghost,”

*Dispensation is an act whereby in a particular case a lawful superior grants relaxation from an existing law. * (NewAdvent.org). The context is his belief that Mary was sinless. WHEN sinlessness was conferred upon her (conception, birth) was still a subject of debate in the early Church.

The point is, since the earliest days, Christians honored Mary, as heresies arose, such as Mary was the mother of the human Jesus, but not the mother of God, doctrine was established. Doctrine is defined when a disagreement arises.

Do you agree that Irenaeus is a Church Father?

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

Let’s get back on track folks.

God bless-

Rachel