Huh? This is a great formun to engage those who are pasionate about their faith. If you think your being picked on then don’t engage. As its been said-- if you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen… probably a catholic saying…
You mention interpretation. We all have to interpret. Even catholics must interpret church teachings without knowing infallibly if their interpretations are correct. Secondly, keep in mind that the catholic church has hardly interpreted any verses of scripture infallibly. So were basically all on the same level on this.
There is so much i could say here but i will limit myself to your comment about the pastors having a different interpretation. Have you gone to 3 priests and asked them this same kind of question about a particular church teaching? i have, and i got different answers. This must mean that the church is not infallible either since these kinds of things happen. The point is that even in the catholic church there is a wide diversity of opinion on countless issues. Even among the leadership.
Why do you believe such a thing if the scriptures never teach such a thing?
Engaging for the truth is never a waste of time. Secondly it might get someone who reads these posts to rethink their position.
Because the catholic church elevates these Tradition claims to the same level as the inspired-inerrant Scripture. Second, if catholics are going to believe that these Traditions are at the same level as Scripture then its vitally important to understand specifically what these Traditions are.
i want to help others see it to.
Then lets study them and see if this is indeed the case. Nothing to fear if they are. If not, then you have a serious problem.
i appreciate it when people are trying to help. The CCC is not the source of these Traditions. It does not tell me where they came from and by whom for example.
I do read them.
Why do you attack me personally? You don’t know my motives as i don’t know yours. Better that we discuss what we write and deal with that than to question each others motives.
No, I don’t think I am being picked on, and I can take it anyway. Just thought that if you want to know what a particular church teaches,it might help to go to someone that presumably knows a sufficient amount of knowlege about his church and scripture to back it up as well,to be considered BY that church to defend it’s teachings.Huh? This is a great formun to engage those who are pasionate about their faith. If you think your being picked on then don’t engage. As its been said-- if you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen… probably a catholic saying…
i’m quite familar with a lot of church teachings and there backup. However i disagree with how they use scripture to support these doctrines.
How do you know your interpretation is correct? You also are out of Scripture.
The CCC is not outside of Scripture.
You study the context, words and what they mean, how they are used in context, compare with other scriptures. This helps tremendously in understanding scripture.
Not sure what this means. Can you clarify?
In some things it is. In regards to the marian doctrines it is and there are others.
If you look at that passage about Peter, where does it say anything about succession?
So say JW’s, and Lutherans, and Presbyterians, and 7th Day Adventists, and Pentacostals, and Baptists, and…
No, wrong. Derailing thread, where is Bible in Bible is the thread. Already answered by you. Thread is dead w/o derailing. But lots of fun!
Tell me what that passage says to YOU, who is inspired by the Holy Spirit to be be infallible?
Proove to me that the Catholic Christian Church’s Magesterium sanctioned, Ex Cathedra, hmm… to which inquistion are your referring?
I don’t know why you kept this part in, but, yes, please do. Thank you
Oh, so YOU disagree! Well, thanks for at least admitting that our church uses scripture to back itself up,anyway… So you believe differently what the scriptures say. No big news. That is why there are now thousands of christian churches. You don’t have to attend Mass with us to be saved,just be baptised in name of trinity,and follow Christ in love for Him and others as best as you can. Since this thread is now burnt out, I will now go the way of all my other catholic fellows. God bless you and brewmax and everyone else that contributed to this thread. just follow the leadings of the HS and you cannot go wrong! And sorry for the recent twists on your handles. Take care!
Yes.
Also true. Yet the Catechism is fairly self explanatory. We can seek out explanations and further commentary if in doubt. Although it is also true that we can find people who disagree and say the Church teaches differently than what most say, this is no different than the early Church. There will always be heretics in the Church for scripture itself tells us to let the weeds and wheat grown together until harvest time.
No, we are not. Because there are many writings of the Early Church that clearly reflect the teachings of the Catholic Church, and in fact reflect some of the teachings of the Reformers.
You mean the spirit filled Protestant Pastors I was referring to?
I do not know if a “particular member” is led by the Spirit. I believe that the “Church” is the pillar and foundation of truth. A particular member can be wrong. But when the Church speaks with “one voice”, I know I can trust it. The Catechism is a good guide for hearing that voice. Filled with tons of scripture references explaining what the Church believes.
I don’t try to judge “particular” members of the Church. It is not my job, nor my responsibility to judge them. I try not to seek out individuals who are living today for my explanations but to stick with the Catechism or the ECF, because of this.
Yes there is, but I have learned that I can look to the Catechism, and fortunately right now, I have a priest who seems to accurately reflect the teachings of the Church.
? (Or not if you don’t wish )
Both.
penWindow(‘cr/84.htm’) The apostles entrusted the “Sacred deposit” of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."46penWindow(‘cr/85.htm’) "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.penWindow(‘cr/86.htm’) "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48 [87](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/87.htm’) Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.Oh, no, ja4, it is not like that. Since we have persons with Holy Orders whose job it is to shepherd and instruct us according to the infallible teaching, we are not “on our own” as you seem to think. We have the infallible and inerrant scripture, as well as the Apostolic Teaching to guide us.
No, again ja4. Those persons united with the Apostolic Succession have the Teachings of the Apostles. It is through the lens of these that we interpret the scriptures. This takes our understanding to a whole new level. On this level we understand that the scriptures were not meant to be interpreted peicemeal verse by verse, as our separated brethren have been taught to do. As a result, we don’t miss the mark by doing so.
Members of the magesterium, being fallible human beings, may not follow the leading of the HS. The reason we can trust the Magesterium is not based upon their own qualities and abilities, but those of God. Jesus promised to preserve the Church in all truth, and we believe Him. He is able to do this, even if some persons rebel. Judas rebelled, but that did not stop Jesus from keeping His Kingdom in order.
This is an erroneous conclusion, ja4, and shows that you are misunderstanding the gift of infallibility. The personal opinons of Catholics does not equal the Teaching of the Church. An individual can make a mistake, misunderstand, or downright sin, and none of that will change the infallible teaching of the Church. Did Judas’ rebellion somehow prove that what Jesus taught was fallible? Diversity of opinons is irrelevant. It is great they are as common as belly buttons, but none of them change the infallible teaching of the Church.
The scriptures do teach that Jesus promised to keep his Church in all truth. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail. If the Church were to teach wrong doctrine, that would mean the gates of hell are prevailing. That would make Jesus a weakling, or a liar.
I am sure it is. The promise of infallibility was not given to any individual leaders, then, or now, except Peter.
I will note this, ja4. I think this is part of the answer to my previous question. I think you are here to try to convince Catholics that the teaching of the church is erroneous,a nd to try to pursuade us to go to a “bible church” instead.
The Church did not elevate these, ja4, Jesus did. Jesus chose to preach, and to teach His Apostles to preach. He trained them in the Sacred Oral Tradition, then commissioned them to share it. He did all this before the Church was formed.
Catholics understand what they are. You cannot understand them because you are outside the Apostolic Tradition. One of those Traditions is mentioned here in the title of this thread. The Bible has no table of contents. It was formed by the Sacred Tradition.
This also helps to answer my previous question about why you are here. You are now admitting that your goal is to convince people on the Board that the Teachings of the Catholic Church, and the Sacred Tradition are 'speculations of men".
No, ja4, we have no serious problem. We already know the Teachings are from the Apostolic and Divine Deposit of Faith. I am not sure why this causes a problem for you, but I can assure you that if you wish to cause problems about it here on CAF that you will not be allowed to remain.
No, the CCC is a summary of the Apostolic Teachings. You are wrong, though, it does tell where they came from, and by whom. It states clearly that the Divine Deposit of Faith is represented by two streams, Scripture, and Sacred Oral Tradition. This came from the Apostles. The fact that you do not accep this does not make it go away.
It was not an attack, but a question, which you have answered in this post. I asked you because I now know that you are not here to ask questions. All your questions have been adequately answered, yet you are still here! That means your motive is not inquiry. Instead, your motive is to get others to see that Church Teaching is the “speculation of men”. I thank you for your honesty.
It is not really an accusation. More of an observation. Of course there are as many different opinions as there are belly buttons. The difference is that no other faith communities claim to have an infallbile source, as the Apostolic Churches do. Instead, each one does what is right in his own eyes.
Actually, the role of the Magesterium is not to “interpret scripture” but to teach the Truth. They are charged with the Great Commission, to teach, administer sacraments, and preserve the Gospel of Jesus. At times, this may include interpreting scripture, produced by the Apostolic source by which they were commissioned.
Both things are true. Individuals can read and interpret on their own. Your error is that the HS would contradict Himself. If an individual comes up with some sort of private interpretation that contradicts what the HS has already revealed to the Church, then it is the individual who missed the mark, not the Church. God never said that individuals would be infallible, or that single readers would be “the pillar and bulwark of the truth”.
:yup:
You still must interpret what those in Holy Orders teach you. Do your teachers of Holy Orders have an infallible understanding of all church teachings? Do they all agree what it means?
It seems then that you do agree that your church has hardly infallibly defined a single verse of scripture. Since we both know your church has has hardly interpreted a verse of scripture, then you have no way to know if you have a correct uderstanding of it. That’s why when i bring up a particular verse and tell you what it means you can’t really do so since your church has not infallilby defined it. This is why the catholic church’ claim to be the only one to interpret scripture is hollow. It has never done so.