Protestants: Where is the Bible in the Bible?

[guanophore]

You still must interpret what those in Holy Orders teach you. Do your teachers of Holy Orders have an infallible understanding of all church teachings? Do they all agree what it means?

Individuals can disagree, it will not change the Truth of the Apostolic Gospel that has come down to us. People may make mistakes, but the Gospel does not change.

It seems then that you do agree that your church has hardly infallibly defined a single verse of scripture.

You are missing the point, ja4. The goal is to understang the Gospel message that Christ taught, not to “interpret every verse of scripture”. I know you believe the latter will accomplish the former, but only in a limited way. Jesus entrusted the gospel to people, not the pages of a book.

Since we both know your church has has hardly interpreted a verse of scripture, then you have no way to know if you have a correct uderstanding of it.

This is a false assertion, ja4. Scripture is properly understood as a reflection of the Apostolic message that Jesus entrusted to those he ordained to preach it. When it is interpreted in the light of that message, it is understood.

That’s why when i bring up a particular verse and tell you what it means you can’t really do so since your church has not infallilby defined it. This is why the catholic church’ claim to be the only one to interpret scripture is hollow. It has never done so.

Well, it happens that you do not agree with the interpretations that have been made, but that does not keep them from existing. As I told you, Judas’ refusal to accept Jesus’ teaching does not nullify his Teaching.

 

[MariaG]

It seems then that you do agree that your church has hardly infallibly defined a single verse of scripture. Since we both know your church has has hardly interpreted a verse of scripture, then you have no way to know if you have a correct uderstanding of it. That’s why when i bring up a particular verse and tell you what it means you can’t really do so since your church has not infallilby defined it. This is why the catholic church’ claim to be the only one to interpret scripture is hollow. It has never done so.

Not true.

That the church has not “infallibly” defined all of scripture or even “infallibly” defined hardly any, does not mean that we have not defined and told us what scripture means.

You misunderstand what “infallible” means, a very specific term that can only be narrowly used by Catholics as well as apparently failed to actually look at the Catechism of the Catholic church at all since place after place after place the catechism tells us specifically what scripture means.

But the discussion of infallible is a thread in and of itself. As this is not your first misunderstandin of it, I suggest you join or start a thread on it.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2817773]Not true.

That the church has not “infallibly” defined all of scripture or even “infallibly” defined hardly any, does not mean that we have not defined and told us what scripture means.

Where do you go then to find what the catholic church means on a particular verse? Its not in the catechism. That is not the function of the catechism.

You misunderstand what “infallible” means, a very specific term that can only be narrowly used by Catholics as well as apparently failed to actually look at the Catechism of the Catholic church at all since place after place after place the catechism tells us specifically what scripture means.

But the discussion of infallible is a thread in and of itself. As this is not your first misunderstandin of it, I suggest you join or start a thread on it.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;2817142]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrewMax
Isn’t this what the Catholic church professes to be a Protestant problem? I haven been told over and over that Protestants have all kinds of different interpretations, but the Catholic church has the magisterium which has THE interpretation of Scripture.
guanophore
Actually, the role of the Magesterium is not to “interpret scripture” but to teach the Truth.

How can the Magesterium teach anything without interpreting the scriptrues? Doesn’t the catholic church claim that all its teachings and doctrines are based on scripture?

They are charged with the Great Commission, to teach, administer sacraments, and preserve the Gospel of Jesus. At times, this may include interpreting scripture, produced by the Apostolic source by which they were commissioned.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;2817769]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
You still must interpret what those in Holy Orders teach you. Do your teachers of Holy Orders have an infallible understanding of all church teachings? Do they all agree what it means?
guanophore
Individuals can disagree, it will not change the Truth of the Apostolic Gospel that has come down to us. People may make mistakes, but the Gospel does not change.

Are the various doctines of the catholic church part of the gospel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
It seems then that you do agree that your church has hardly infallibly defined a single verse of scripture.
guanophore
You are missing the point, ja4. The goal is to understang the Gospel message that Christ taught, not to “interpret every verse of scripture”. I know you believe the latter will accomplish the former, but only in a limited way. Jesus entrusted the gospel to people, not the pages of a book.

Huh? Where is the gospel message found today?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Since we both know your church has has hardly interpreted a verse of scripture, then you have no way to know if you have a correct uderstanding of it.
guanophore
This is a false assertion, ja4.

This is not a false assertion. We both know the catholic church has hardly interpreted any verses offically or infallibly.

guanophore
Scripture is properly understood as a reflection of the Apostolic message that Jesus entrusted to those he ordained to preach it. When it is interpreted in the light of that message, it is understood.

Does this mean that the other doctrines your church proclaims are also part of the gospel? The marian doctrines, purgatory or indulgences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
That’s why when i bring up a particular verse and tell you what it means you can’t really do so since your church has not infallilby defined it. This is why the catholic church’ claim to be the only one to interpret scripture is hollow. It has never done so.
guanophore
Well, it happens that you do not agree with the interpretations that have been made, but that does not keep them from existing. As I told you, Judas’ refusal to accept Jesus’ teaching does not nullify his Teaching.

What infallible interpretations has been given?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Having said that “where in the Bible is the Bible” has already been aswered, (Bible is not int he Bible), and recognizing the thread is dead regarding that topic, I will allow myself go off topic, until I can figure out how to start a new thread on Catholic Christian Tradition, I mean catholic, universal.

There is so much i could say here but i will limit myself to your comment about the pastors having a different interpretation. Have you gone to 3 priests and asked them this same kind of question about a particular church teaching? i have, and i got different answers. This must mean that the church is not infallible either since these kinds of things happen. The point is that even in the catholic church there is a wide diversity of opinion on countless issues. Even among the leadership.

Now this is most interesting. You went to 3 priests and asked them “this same kind of question about a particular church teaching?’ i have, and i got different answers.”

What did you ask them? What were the answers?

I have lived in Boston, MA; Plymouth, MA; Philadelphia, PA; Cincinnati, OH; France, Germany, not to mention the parish of my upbringing in St. Louis, MO, the parish of my youth in St. Louis, MO, and my current parish in St. Louis, MO.My own uncle was a French priest, and survied a Nazi prison camp, because he was a priest. I have faithfully attended mass and belonged to parishes in all these places. I have never had the experience of dogmatic incorrectness preached by any priest in any of these places.

In the US, we call our priests “Father” for they represent the Father. In France priests are addressed as “Monsieur le Cure” in German, “Priester.” Are English Speaking Catholics in violation of “call no man father” but other language Catholics not? What then is the context of this verse? Do I not call my own father, “Father?”

 

[BrewMax]

These are good questions, BrewMax.

It is not really an accusation. More of an observation. Of course there are as many different opinions as there are belly buttons. The difference is that no other faith communities claim to have an infallbile source, as the Apostolic Churches do. Instead, each one does what is right in his own eyes.

QUOTE]

Infallible source be as it may, but if the faith community has a different belief, then the source isn’t any good. The folks with different beliefs ARE doing what is right in their own eyes.

 

[guanophore]

Where do you go then to find what the catholic church means on a particular verse? Its not in the catechism. That is not the function of the catechism.

No, and it is not the function of the Catholic Church either. The duty of the Church is to preach the Gospel as it was handed down from Jesus through the Apostles. This preaching of the whole truth of the kingdom is the priority, and not parsing verses for unbelievers.

Since this Gospel the apostles taught (the Catholic faith) contains all the teachings God has revealed, and since the bible is only a short summary of this Gospel the apostles taught then it is impossible for anyone to learn this Gospel the apostles taught (the Catholic faith) by studing the bible. That is why Protestant denominations can’t agree on what they teach. They all teach different Gospels. There is not a single teaching that all Protestant denominations can agree upon.

Thus, the Gospel the apostles taught is the Catholic faith.
That part that they wrote is salvation history, or scripture.
We cannot separate the two. We cannot have basic teachings which are separated from the historical context of scripture. They both work together.

Both the Gospel handed down in Tradition and the Gospel they wrote combine to form one Gospel, the Word of God, which is taught by the Church Jesus founded. Jesus is the fullness of revelation. The bible itself says about Jesus: “All things have been delivered to me by my Father…” Mt 11:27 In Jesus "are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” Col 2:3
In Christ “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Col 2:9)

Notice that no where does the bible say that in Moses, or Paul or Matthew, Mark, Luke or John are "hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” and about no other writer or prophet of the bible says, “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily”.

This can only be said about Jesus.

Thus, while Protestants start off with the bible, Catholics start off with Jesus. In Protestantism the bible is the center of their faith.
In Catholicism Jesus is the center of the faith.

Thus, we see the problem from the beginning. a) Scripture does not say the bible is the fullness of revelation.
b) Scripture does not say in the bible are "are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge”
c) Scripture does not say in the bible “the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”

Thus, in Protestantism their sole authority is only what God wrote through men as salvation history, the bible. For Catholics their authority is God Himself.

Jesus taught the apostles EVERYTHING.
Mr 4:34 “He did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.”
John 15:15 “for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.”
John 14:26 “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”

The job of the Church is to proclaim the Gospel, as handed to them by Jesus.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Infallible source be as it may, but if the faith community has a different belief, then the source isn’t any good. The folks with different beliefs ARE doing what is right in their own eyes.

The 'infallible source" is the guardian and keeper of Truth, and you say it isn’t any good??

When Scripture is correctly read, some verses may touch me differently than others. Some find more meaning in the Gospel of John. My personal favorite is Matthew. Does that mean I don’t believe EVERYTHING in John? No. Everyone is different with different life experiences.

You are confusing private revelation with Church Teaching. Not the same thing.

 

[BrewMax]

The 'infallible source" is the guardian and keeper of Truth, and you say it isn’t any good??

When Scripture is correctly read, some verses may touch me differently than others. Some find more meaning in the Gospel of John. My personal favorite is Matthew. Does that mean I don’t believe EVERYTHING in John? No. Everyone is different with different life experiences.

You are confusing private revelation with Church Teaching. Not the same thing.

I think you know very well what I mean here and it has everything to do with truth, not that one likes Mark more than Luke or any of that. Is your infallible source Scripture or is it not?

 

[guanophore]

You still must interpret what those in Holy Orders teach you. Do your teachers of Holy Orders have an infallible understanding of all church teachings? Do they all agree what it means?

It seems then that you do agree that your church has hardly infallibly defined a single verse of scripture. Since we both know your church has has hardly interpreted a verse of scripture, then you have no way to know if you have a correct uderstanding of it. That’s why when i bring up a particular verse and tell you what it means you can’t really do so since your church has not infallilby defined it. This is why the catholic church’ claim to be the only one to interpret scripture is hollow. It has never done so.

I made you a new thread for this one, ja4, in the scripture section. There are already a number of good answers for you there.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=189446

 

[qui_est_ce]

Is your infallible source Scripture or is it not?

My infallible source is Apostolic Tradition, ie the Magesterium of the Catholic Christian Church, which compiled and preserved Scripture for the some 200 years after the death of Jesus before an official Canon was first ratified. It is the Holy Spirit who infallibly guided the Catholic Church to infallibly give us infallible Scripture.

Scripture and Apostolic Tradition not mutually exclusive.

“The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations” New Advent.org.

If you are interestd in furthering your understanding of Catholic Christians and the Bible, click on the link below.
newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm

 

[MariaG]

Where do you go then to find what the catholic church means on a particular verse? Its not in the catechism. That is not the function of the catechism.

No, because the catechism is not trying to interpet scripture but share the gospel and who Christ is.

You can look up subjects though and then read the citations of which biblical passages are being explained.

For example:

My favorite bible verses are John 20:21-23. They are about confession.

1461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation,65 bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops’ collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”
65 Cf. Jn 20:23; 2 Cor 5:18.

1851 It is precisely in the Passion, when the mercy of Christ is about to vanquish it, that sin most clearly manifests its violence and its many forms: unbelief, murderous hatred, shunning and mockery by the leaders and the people, Pilate’s cowardice and the cruelty of the soldiers, Judas’ betrayal - so bitter to Jesus, Peter’s denial and the disciples’ flight. However, at the very hour of darkness, the hour of the prince of this world,126 the sacrifice of Christ secretly becomes the source from which the forgiveness of our sins will pour forth inexhaustibly.

126 Cf. Jn 14:30.

How can the Magesterium teach anything without interpreting the scriptrues? Doesn’t the catholic church claim that all its teachings and doctrines are based on scripture?

It has. Just not in the format you wish to see it. No “lists”, no look up the verse, but a comprehensive whole set of beliefs with references to scripture.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

Huh? Where is the gospel message found today?

Maybe you would like to read this. It is short and may give you some insight you formerly did not have

Here is a link below.

How Do Catholics Hear The Gospel**?"
by Gary Michuta

**{from Hands-On Apologetics, March/Apirl 1997. Copyright Thy Faith, Inc. 1997}

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

This is not a false assertion. We both know the catholic church has hardly interpreted any verses offically or infallibly.

In the first 25 statements the of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, there are 11 specific references to scripture, that is, we place an explanation of our beliefs and a scripture reference where this is found in the Bible. While these explanations may not fall under the “infallible” definition, they certainly are explanations. And that is just the first 25. The Catechism has well over 2000 separate entries.

That is not to mention that many of the documents that are not scripture, are homilies or papers on scripture themselves. (I personally don’t find them as useful, hard to look up and see what scripture, which we know is God’s inspired word, is being referred to.)

1 Jn 17 3.
2 1 Tim 2:3-4.
3 Acts 4:12.
4 Mt 28:19-20.
5 Mk 16:20.
6 Cf. Acts 2:42.
7 Cf. John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation Catechesi tradendae 1; 2.
8 CT 18.
9 CT 18.
10 CT 13.
11 Cf. CT 12.
12 CT 13.
13 Extraordinary Synod of Bishops 1985, Final Report, II B a, 4.
14 John Paul II, Discourse at the Closing Of the Extraordinary Synod of Bishops, 7 December 1985: AAS 78, (1986).
15 Extraordinary Synod of Bishops 1985, Final Report II B a, 4.
16 Cf. Mt 10:32; Rom 10:9.
17 Cf. CT 20-22; 25.
18 Roman Catechism, Preface II; cf. 1 Cor 9:22; 1 Pt 2:2.
19 Roman Catechism, Preface 10; cf. 1 Cor 13:8.

 

[guanophore]

How can the Magesterium teach anything without interpreting the scriptrues? Doesn’t the catholic church claim that all its teachings and doctrines are based on scripture?

No, the Teaching of the Catholic Church is based upon Divine Revelation from Jesus. The Scriptures do reflect that Revelation, and do support the Teachings, but the Teachings came first, and the Scripture came later. The Magesterium teaches the Gospel of Jesus, and the scriptures give support to that.

 

[guanophore]

Are the various doctines of the catholic church part of the gospel?

Of course! What would be the point of teaching them otherwise?

Huh? Where is the gospel message found today?

In the Teaching of the Catholic Church!

This is not a false assertion. We both know the catholic church has hardly interpreted any verses offically or infallibly.

No need! We know that the Gospel that Jesus taught is found in the Church, and we see it reflected in the scripture.

Does this mean that the other doctrines your church proclaims are also part of the gospel? The marian doctrines, purgatory or indulgences?

This seems like a silly question to me, because it seems obvious. But for the sake of thoroughness, I will say yes.

What infallible interpretations has been given?

That the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth, not the scripture.

 

[justasking4]

Maybe you would like to read this. It is short and may give you some insight you formerly did not have

Here is a link below.

How Do Catholics Hear The Gospel?"
by Gary Michuta

{from Hands-On Apologetics, March/Apirl 1997. Copyright Thy Faith, Inc. 1997}

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

I already do a lot reading. Why don’t you tell me what the gospel is?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Does this mean that the other doctrines your church proclaims are also part of the gospel? The marian doctrines, purgatory or indulgences?
guanophore
This seems like a silly question to me, because it seems obvious. But for the sake of thoroughness, I will say yes.

If what you say is true, then this would be a false gospel since Paul was totally unaware of the many doctrines in the catholic church. See Galatians 1:8-9. He never taught anything about the marian doctrines for example. That was never a requirement of the gospel he taught.

 

[justasking4]

MariaG;2822285] In the first 25 statements the of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, there are 11 specific references to scripture, that is, we place an explanation of our beliefs and a scripture reference where this is found in the Bible. While these explanations may not fall under the “infallible” definition, they certainly are explanations. And that is just the first 25. The Catechism has well over 2000 separate entries.

There is a difference between something being interpreted infallibly and interpretations given in the catechism. No doubt individuals in the church have interpreted scriptures but that does not mean its binding on the church forever does it?