Protestants: Where is the Bible in the Bible?

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How could that be? When the man beside Jesus on the cross confessed his sin to Jesus and asked him to remember him, Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise, that doesn’t even sound remotely Catholic. Truth is, Catholic had nothing to do with it because the Catholic church did not yet exist. Jesus didn’t tell the man to say some Hail Marys and Our Fathers and then maybe someone will help pray you out of Purgatory.
BrewMax,

As much as I like to answer some of your objection. Your posts barely discusses the subject of the thread, which states, Protestants: Where is the Bible in the Bible?

In in your response you are given us, the “doctrinal dance.” Doctrinal Dance is giving multiple objections like, say the Hail Mary, and Our Fathers… or pray your way out of Purgatory.

These topics can be discuss in another thread, which I think you know how to make.
 
Wrong. The Church came before the Bible. (the Physical Book).

Did you even look at the link I provided?
Not necessarily. The Church was being founded and growing as the bible was being finished. The old testemant existed WAY before the Church Christ founded and the new testament were the letters and writings being laid down as the Church grew… I think it’s less ‘the chicken and the egg’ and more both came about at around the same time.
 
How could that be? When the man beside Jesus on the cross confessed his sin to Jesus and asked him to remember him, Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise, that doesn’t even sound remotely Catholic.
Neither does accept Jesus as your personal Lord and savior. That’s not found in the Bible.
Truth is, Catholic had nothing to do with it because the Catholic church did not yet exist.
I disagree. History shown the Catholic Church did exist then. I also like to add there is list of Popes dating back from today all the way back to St. Peter. St. Peter was Pope from 32-67 AD, St. Linus 67-76 AD, St. Anacletus (76-88), St. Clement of Rome (88-97 AD…

Jesus establish a Church upon Simon Peter. Matthew 16:18.

The first recorded word of Catholic Church was recorded in St. Ignatius Letter to the Smyrnaeans in 110 AD.
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid
St. Ignatius was the disciple of St. John, the Apostle and bishop of Antioch.
Jesus didn’t tell the man to say some Hail Marys and Our Fathers and then maybe someone will help pray you out of Purgatory.
Well, that is just complete Catholic bias. Praying for the dead is fruitful. We pray so that they can be loose from their sins. Even the Jews pray for the dead and its called the Mourner Kaddish.
 
Not necessarily. The Church was being founded and growing as the bible was being finished. The old testemant existed WAY before the Church Christ founded and the new testament were the letters and writings being laid down as the Church grew… I think it’s less ‘the chicken and the egg’ and more both came about at around the same time.
Yes, the Old Testament existed but the Bible as we know it didn’t exist. Both the OT and NT were not put together by the Church until 392 AD in the Council of Hippo, and 396 Council of Carthage. These councils list all the Canonical Books of the OT 46 OT and the 27 NTs…

So yes. The OT did exist before the Church, the Bible did not. The Bible came about 392-396 years laters.
 
BrewMax,

As much as I like to answer some of your objection. Your posts barely discusses the subject of the thread, which states, Protestants: Where is the Bible in the Bible?

In in your response you are given us, the “doctrinal dance.” Doctrinal Dance is giving multiple objections like, say the Hail Mary, and Our Fathers… or pray your way out of Purgatory.

These topics can be discuss in another thread, which I think you know how to make.
Doctrinal dance? I was refuting your statement of the Catholic church existing before the time of Christ’s words and Paul’s preaching. I think you were off topic just as much as I was. As far as the thread question, it is a loaded question and you very well know that. The Bible is the collection of books written by those inspired by God. It is not the only authority in Christianity but it must be held in the highest regard amongst all other authority.
 
Yes, the Old Testament existed but the Bible as we know it didn’t exist. Both the OT and NT were not put together by the Church until 392 AD in the Council of Hippo, and 396 Council of Carthage. These councils list all the Canonical Books of the OT 46 OT and the 27 NTs…

So yes. The OT did exist before the Church, the Bible did not. The Bible came about 392-396 years laters.
Certainly, in it’s current form BUT it existed separately WAY before that. Those writings and letters that we read out of our conveniently put together bible were written a long time before someone decided to put it together. SO… the bible, in essence, existed as the Church grew because they were the writings and teachings that came out of that growth. What is the bible? The COLLECTION of teachings and writings of the earliest of early church fathers. You couldn’t have the bible in it’s current form if they hadn’t written it as the Church was growing. 😊
 
Doctrinal dance? I was refuting your statement of the Catholic church existing before the time of Christ’s words and Paul’s preaching. I think you were off topic just as much as I was. As far as the thread question, it is a loaded question and you very well know that. The Bible is the collection of books written by those inspired by God. It is not the only authority in Christianity but it must be held in the highest regard amongst all other authority.
Yes I did but I think you misunderstood me completely. I said the Catholic Church existed before the entire Bible was put together. The Bible we know it as today contain both Old Testament and New Testament.

I did not say that the Church existed before Christ’s word. I don’t know where you got that general idea from. The Bible we see today was canonized by the Church in the Council of Hippo in 392 AD and then affirm again in 396 AD in the Council of Carthage. The same list can be found in the Council of Florence in 1430 AD.
 
Certainly, in it’s current form BUT it existed separately WAY before that. Those writings and letters that we read out of our conveniently put together bible were written a long time before someone decided to put it together. SO… the bible, in essence, existed as the Church grew because they were the writings and teachings that came out of that growth. What is the bible? The COLLECTION of teachings and writings of the earliest of early church fathers. You couldn’t have the bible in it’s current form if they hadn’t written it as the Church was growing. 😊
The Bible was put together by the Church, SinginBeauty. At the time of the letters, there were also other Gospels (Gnostic Gospels floating around, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Judas, Revelation of Peter, Gospel of Paul and Thedas). Some ECF believe them to be more inspiring than James, Revelations, Hebrews. In fact one of the early bishop went as far as to reject the OT altogether and claim the OT God is inferior. This heresy was Marcionism. The Church Council rejected it. In was in this response that the Church decided to make a list what was Canonical in Scripture and what wasn’t.
 
The Bible was put together by the Church, SinginBeauty. At the time of the letters, there were also other Gospels (Gnostic Gospels floating around). Some ECF believe them to be more inspiring than James, Revelations, Hebrews. In fact one of the early bishop went as far as to reject the OT altogether and claim the OT God is inferior. This heresy was Marcionism. The Church Council rejected it. In was in this response that the Church decided to make a list what was Canonical in Scripture and what wasn’t.
But those writings included… when were they written and followed?
 
But those writings included… when were they written and followed?
The Gnostic Gospels were rejected. The Church Council in Hippo and Carthage canonized 46 (47) OT and 27 NT text. The Pope in Council of Carthage affirm these list to be worthy use for whole Church.
 
Certainly, in it’s current form BUT it existed separately WAY before that. Those writings and letters that we read out of our conveniently put together bible were written a long time before someone decided to put it together. SO… the bible, in essence, existed as the Church grew because they were the writings and teachings that came out of that growth. What is the bible? The COLLECTION of teachings and writings of the earliest of early church fathers. You couldn’t have the bible in it’s current form if they hadn’t written it as the Church was growing. 😊
Yes, many writings and letters existed. BUT it was the Catholic Christian Church which decided under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit WHICH writings were divinely inspired.
 
SinginBeauty,

This is a summary of the Timeline of the Canon of Scripture. The source is from Columbia University columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/canon.html:

1000-50 BC:
The Old Testament (hereafter “OT”) books are written.

C. 200 BC:
Rabbis translate the OT from Hebrew to Greek, a translation called the “Septuagint” (abbreviation: “LXX”). The LXX ultimately includes 46 books.

AD 30-100:
Christians use the LXX as their scriptures. This upsets the Jews.

C. AD 100:
So Jewish rabbis meet at the Council of Jamniah and decide to include in their canon only 39 books, since only these can be found in Hebrew.

C. AD 400:
Jerome translates the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into Latin (called the “Vulgate”). He knows that the Jews have only 39 books, and he wants to limit the OT to these; the 7 he would leave out (Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach [or “Ecclesiasticus”], and Baruch–he calls “apocrypha,” that is, “hidden books.” But Pope Damasus wants all 46 traditionally-used books included in the OT, so the Vulgate has 46.

AD 1536:
Luther translates the Bible from Hebrew and Greek to German. He assumes that, since Jews wrote the Old Testament, theirs is the correct canon; he puts the extra 7 books in an appendix that he calls the “Apocrypha.”

AD 1546:
The Catholic Council of Trent reaffirms the canonicity of all 46 books.

Development of the New Testament Canon:

C. AD 51-125:
The New Testament books are written, but during this same period other early Christian writings are produced–for example, the Didache (c. AD 70), 1 Clement (c. 96), the Epistle of Barnabas (c. 100), and the 7 letters of Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110).
C. AD 140:

Marcion, a businessman in Rome, teaches that there were two Gods: Yahweh, the cruel God of the OT, and Abba, the kind father of the NT. So Marcion eliminates the Old Testament as scriptures and, since he is anti-Semitic, keeps from the NT only 10 letters of Paul and 2/3 of Luke’s gospel (he deletes references to Jesus’ Jewishness). Marcion’s “New Testament”–the first to be compiled–forces the mainstream Church to decide on a core canon: the four gospels and letters of Paul.

C. AD 200:
But the periphery of the canon is not yet determined. According to one list, compiled at Rome c. AD 200 (the Muratorian Canon), the NT consists of the 4 gospels; Acts; 13 letters of Paul (Hebrews is not included); 3 of the 7 General Epistles (1-2 John and Jude); and also the Apocalypse of Peter.

AD 367:
The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in his Easter letter of 367. [Note: this is well after the Constantine’s Edict of Toleration in 313 A.D.]
AD 904:

Pope Damasus, in a letter to a French bishop, lists the New Testament books in their present number and order.

AD 1442:
At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognizes the 27 books, though does not declare them unalterable.

AD 1536:
In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German, Luther removes 4 NT books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations) from their normal order and places them at the end, stating that they are less than canonical.

AD 1546:
At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirms once and for all the full list of 27 books as traditionally accepted.
 
The Gnostic Gospels were rejected. The Church Council in Hippo and Carthage canonized 46 (47) OT and 27 NT text. The Pope in Council of Carthage affirm these list to be worthy use for whole Church.
You totally misunderstood my question…

When were the writings included IN THE BIBLE and followed by the Church that Christ founded? You can’t be saying that these writings were ignored until they were put into the bible’s current form…
 
SinginBeauty,

This is a summary of the Timeline of the Canon of Scripture. The source is from Columbia University columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/canon.html:

1000-50 BC:
The Old Testament (hereafter “OT”) books are written.

C. 200 BC:
Rabbis translate the OT from Hebrew to Greek, a translation called the “Septuagint” (abbreviation: “LXX”). The LXX ultimately includes 46 books.

AD 30-100:
Christians use the LXX as their scriptures. This upsets the Jews.

C. AD 100:
So Jewish rabbis meet at the Council of Jamniah and decide to include in their canon only 39 books, since only these can be found in Hebrew.

C. AD 400:
Jerome translates the Bible from Hebrew and Greek into Latin (called the “Vulgate”). He knows that the Jews have only 39 books, and he wants to limit the OT to these; the 7 he would leave out (Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach [or “Ecclesiasticus”], and Baruch–he calls “apocrypha,” that is, “hidden books.” But Pope Damasus wants all 46 traditionally-used books included in the OT, so the Vulgate has 46.

AD 1536:
Luther translates the Bible from Hebrew and Greek to German. He assumes that, since Jews wrote the Old Testament, theirs is the correct canon; he puts the extra 7 books in an appendix that he calls the “Apocrypha.”

AD 1546:
The Catholic Council of Trent reaffirms the canonicity of all 46 books.

Development of the New Testament Canon:

C. AD 51-125:
The New Testament books are written, but during this same period other early Christian writings are produced–for example, the Didache (c. AD 70), 1 Clement (c. 96), the Epistle of Barnabas (c. 100), and the 7 letters of Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110).
C. AD 140:

Marcion, a businessman in Rome, teaches that there were two Gods: Yahweh, the cruel God of the OT, and Abba, the kind father of the NT. So Marcion eliminates the Old Testament as scriptures and, since he is anti-Semitic, keeps from the NT only 10 letters of Paul and 2/3 of Luke’s gospel (he deletes references to Jesus’ Jewishness). Marcion’s “New Testament”–the first to be compiled–forces the mainstream Church to decide on a core canon: the four gospels and letters of Paul.

C. AD 200:
But the periphery of the canon is not yet determined. According to one list, compiled at Rome c. AD 200 (the Muratorian Canon), the NT consists of the 4 gospels; Acts; 13 letters of Paul (Hebrews is not included); 3 of the 7 General Epistles (1-2 John and Jude); and also the Apocalypse of Peter.

AD 367:
The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in his Easter letter of 367. [Note: this is well after the Constantine’s Edict of Toleration in 313 A.D.]
AD 904:

Pope Damasus, in a letter to a French bishop, lists the New Testament books in their present number and order.

AD 1442:
At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognizes the 27 books, though does not declare them unalterable.

AD 1536:
In his translation of the Bible from Greek into German, Luther removes 4 NT books (Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations) from their normal order and places them at the end, stating that they are less than canonical.

AD 1546:
At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirms once and for all the full list of 27 books as traditionally accepted.
The bible isn’t just the current book you see in your home and church today… It is a collection of inspired writings that the Church has followed since they were written. They didn’t just magically become inspired in 1546, they were inspired when they were written BY GOD. Just because the catholic church decided they were inspired in 1546 doesn’t mean they weren’t inspired when they were written. And since that is what the bible is compiled of, the bible existed when the church was being formed. I am not, nor have I been talking about those NOT included in the bible so I don’t understand why you keep bringing this up.
 
You totally misunderstood my question…

When were the writings included IN THE BIBLE and followed by the Church that Christ founded? You can’t be saying that these writings were ignored until they were put into the bible’s current form…
Those writings are Tradition. For example Mary espoused to Joseph who did not “know her” is from a proto-evangelical gospel which is not inspired but gives us background to the customs of the day.
 
The bible isn’t just the current book you see in your home and church today… It is a collection of inspired writings that the Church has followed since they were written. They didn’t just magically become inspired in 1546, they were inspired when they were written. And since that is what the bible is compiled of, the bible existed when the church was being formed. I am not, nor have I been talking about those NOT included in the bible so I don’t understand why you keep bringing this up.
Those Church Councils I mentioned were already consider inspired. They were affirmed when heresy arises. Yes it is a collection of inspiring writings from God. Since the Scripture’s author is the Holy Spirit who inspired men to write it.

It is the same spirit whom inspired the Church which Books in the Bible were canonical. The Bible didn’t exist before the Church because the Bible contain both the Old Testament and New Testament.

The Hebrew Scripture wasn’t even called the Bible back then. It would be fair to say Scripture (not including the NT) existed before the Church. However, it is **not historically accurate **to say the Bible (both OT and NT) existed before the Church.
 
Those Church Councils I mentioned were already consider inspired. They were affirmed when heresy arises. Yes it is a collection of inspiring writings from God. Since the Scripture’s author is the Holy Spirit who inspired men to write it.

It is with the same spirit whom inspired the Church which Books in the Bible were canonical. The Bible didn’t exist before the Church because the Bible contain both the Old Testament and New Testament.

The Hebrew Scripture wasn’t even called the Bible back then. It would be fair to say Scripture (not including the NT) existed before the Church. However, it is not historically accurate to say the Bible (both OT and NT) existed before the Church.
That is where you and I differ Manny… I cannot separate scripture and the bible. To me, they are one and the same. I think this is where the mis-communication is coming from.
 
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