Protestants who accept OSAS: How do you explain these scriptures?

[distracted]

I most definitely know that I have been born again by the Holy Spirit and therefore am permanently saved.

your confidence seems presumptuous…

It has nothing to do with accepting a denomination,

the Catholic Church is not a denomination… it is The Church Christ established on Earth… He only wanted / needed ONE…

rather it has everything to do with accepting the free gift of God, which is Jesus Christ as my Redeemer. Such acceptance can not be given to anyone by a church

Jesus gave the power to forgive to the Church he established (St. John 20:19)…

teaching or ordinance. It is completely the work of God,

working through the Church His Son built

. Jesus’ Sacrifice was completely sufficient to save all that come to Him in true faith.

Catholics agree with this… as well as other things you say…

They only insult His all-sufficient one Sacrifice, when they think they can earn their salvation in some way by the addition of their own “good” works.

If you knew the true Catholic position on works you would not be saying this. I think you need to take an RCIA class before you can say you undersand the catholic position.

Good works are only the proof that one is saved, not the means of salvation. Good works are only the result of having already being saved.

ditto…

No one is perfect and sinless after being saved, but if they have a real sense of grief as a result of disobeying God afterwards, then they are saved.

just having a guilty conscience makes one “saved”… well, in that case All are saved… (excepting maybe psychopaths who have “no conscience”…).

A true sense of grief prevents a saved person from indulging in sin and , instead, a saved person grows more Godly as the Spirit guides him.

again, the Catholic Church agrees…

Jesus told His disciples to preach the Gospel, which is in the Word of God that many disparage on this site as being inadequate.

No Catholic is going to tell you that the Bible is inadquate… (no well informed one anyway)… But Christianity was NOT spread by the Bible… in the beginning. It was spread through PREACHING… which was carried on by the first priests and bishops of the Catholic Church (called “Catholic” way back in the year 107… probably before then, but that is what is documented)…

They prefer the doctrines of man, which leads to the real mocking of God’s Word.

The Church’s doctrines are God’s… and again, if you studied Catholicism from a true Catholic, as is usually done in RCIA… you would NOT be saying things about the Church and its teachings

In (1 Peter 1:23), Peter declares, “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of the incorruptible, by the (Word of God), which liveth and abideth for ever.”

You can not lose that which is born of incorruptible seed.

This passage calls the Word of God incorruptible seed. Man himself can be corrupted… His relationship with God most definitely can be corrupted… when he goes AGAINST the incorruptible Word of God…

 

[distracted]

Jesus Christ as my Redeemer. Such acceptance can not be given to anyone by a church or teaching or ordinance. It is completely the work of God,

Why do you think that Jesus cannot work within a Church??

Oh… never mind… i realize now that it is because you are Protestnat… that is undoubtedly what you have been taught all your life…

 

[myredeemerlives]

I think it depends on your meaning of Church, for Catholics it is Jesus in the Church that saves but for Christianity… church is merely a gathering of believers with Christ as the head.

 

[cazayoux]

Then there is St. Matthew 18:23 which speaks of a person being Totally forgiven of his sins, but who then cannot find it in his heart to forgive his fellow “servant”… he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)…

this is speaking of a person who was, as you say, “saved”…

As a Catholic, I believe this scripture 100%.
However, I don’t see this as a proof against OSAS.
We have TONS of scripture to disprove OSAS, but I just don’t think this is one.

I’d say that this verse shows someone IS still saved because of the ‘until’. It shows that eventually, this person is saved (once the debt is paid).
Actually, I’d say that this is a proof for purgatory.

Now John 15 will bring a good discussion.

John 15:5-6
[5] I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
[6] If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

Jesus is the vine.
Christians are the branches.
It’s is possible for a branch (Christian) to be separated from Christ and thrown into the fire (hell).
That sure ain’t OSAS.

michel

 

[1holycatholic]

I think it depends on your meaning of Church, for Catholics it is Jesus in the Church that saves but for Christianity… church is merely a gathering of believers with Christ as the head.

Catholic is Christianity. The Catholic Church is the one and only Church.

 

[myredeemerlives]

Christianity is pentecostal Christians… I think there are around 2.3 billion of us. We aren’t Catholic. All religions say they are the one true Church.

Also, I don’t believe in once saved, always saved and not many in our church actually do. Unforgiveness will send you to hell, and so will unrepentant sins such as adultery. We still obey God and do our best not to sin, with the holy spirits help. We just don’t believe that God’s grace is dispersed through the sacraments and we believe communion is a memorial of what Christ has already accomplished on the cross. We also believe in speaking in tongues and that the spiritual gifts given to the apostles at pentecost are still around and available to all believers today.

 

[brkn1]

Not to contradict you here, brkn1, because of course as an evangelical I agree with most of what you’ve written here.

My only question is; how do you know that you have been saved?

There can be no answer that would satisfy those who consider salvation as only a temporary state that comes and goes depending on our “state of common grace”.
Being born again changes how our mind and spirit works. There is a true blindness to those who have not received the new divine nature from the Holy Spirit.
There is a definite sense of joy,life, and peace that did not exist before spiritual regeneration. It is not static and it wanes and grows; but just as in physical birth, there is no turning back as some claim. The presence of God becomes real and you are able to start to know and love God in return.
Scripture even explains how “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”. It is not a fleshly “feeling”, emotion, or understanding, although those carnal things might accompany the real thing as the Holy Spirit works.

 

[brkn1]

even if you know you have been saved… even if we Catholics were to agree to those terms… that does not mean you will never, ever, regardless of sins committed, lose your salvation…

I’ve been “saved” hundreds oftimes… through confession… but i always commit sin (venial sin) after confession… Loving Jesus and adhering to his Commandmnets is a lifelong commitment, not a one-time thing…

That means you have been “unsaved” after being “saved” many times.
Jesus did not say that you had to be “born again” many times.
We would have to go from being a child of God back to an “unadopted child” of God again and again by your explanation.

 

[1holycatholic]

There can be no answer that would satisfy those who consider salvation as only a temporary state that comes and goes depending on our “state of common grace”.

Like St. Paul?
Phil 2:12:

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Christianity is pentecostal Christians… I think there are around 2.3 billion of us. We aren’t Catholic. All religions say they are the one true Church.

Also, I don’t believe in once saved, always saved and not many in our church actually do. Unforgiveness will send you to hell, and so will unrepentant sins such as adultery. We still obey God and do our best not to sin, with the holy spirits help. We just don’t believe that God’s grace is dispersed through the sacraments and we believe communion is a memorial of what Christ has already accomplished on the cross. We also believe in speaking in tongues and that the spiritual gifts given to the apostles at pentecost are still around and available to all believers today.

So you believe in confessing your sins to a priest that holds Apostolic succession… Cool:thumbsup:

 

[distracted]

As a Catholic, I believe this scripture 100%.
However, I don’t see this as a proof against OSAS.

not by itself… but if OSAS is taken to mean that one doesn’t even have to go through Purgatory… well, this passage definitely refutes that idea…

We have TONS of scripture to disprove OSAS, but I just don’t think this is one.

true nuf…

I’d say that this verse shows someone IS still saved because of the ‘until’. It shows that eventually, this person is saved (once the debt is paid).
Actually, I’d say that this is a proof for purgatory.

I agree… although there IS a passage in the Bible that says someone had “no more children until she died” Does that mean she had children after she died?? Anyway, i used this passage because i take OSAS to mean that one goes directly to Heaven despite any sins… maybe not all OSAS people believe that?? But then if they didn’t, they would have to believe/accept Purgatory. And they AREN:t going to do that… !! (if they want to stay Protestant)

Jesus is the vine.
Christians are the branches.
It’s is possible for a branch (Christian) to be separated from Christ and thrown into the fire (hell).
That sure ain’t OSAS.

michel

Otay…

 

[distracted]

Christianity is pentecostal Christians… I think there are around 2.3 billion of us. We aren’t Catholic. All religions say they are the one true Church.

Also, I don’t believe in once saved, always saved and not many in our church actually do. Unforgiveness will send you to hell, and so will unrepentant sins such as adultery. We still obey God and do our best not to sin, with the holy spirits help. We just don’t believe that God’s grace is dispersed through the sacraments and we believe communion is a memorial of what Christ has already accomplished on the cross. We also believe in speaking in tongues and that the spiritual gifts given to the apostles at pentecost are still around and available to all believers today.

The Catholics believe everything you have mentioned here with one exception… We don’t believe that grace is dispensed ONLY with the sacraments… but grace DOES come through them… and my entire life is proof of that… (though possibly not to one who will not believe my testimony…).

Also, Catholics believe Communion is a memorial… (etc) but we also believe it is MORE than that…

 

[Steve_Pearson]

Today, the Gospel reading at Mass was St. Matthew 7:21:

"Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven… [Many will say, "Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name… and Jesus says, “Depart from me, i never knew you…”]

Then there is St. Matthew 18:23 which speaks of a person being Totally forgiven of his sins, but who then cannot find it in his heart to forgive his fellow “servant”… he is handed over to the torturers until the once-written-off debt is paid in full (“the last penny”)…

this is speaking of a person who was, as you say, “saved”…

There are others… but i will leave it at that… for now…

I explain OSAS with John 10:27-29.

Scripture says that when we accept Christ we become a new creature. Since one cannot be both “new” and “old” at the same time, I hold that once a person is a new creature in Christ Jesus he cannot be what he was.

Therefore, if a person is thought to “backslide” and thus “lost” his salvation, then I would suspect that person was never really a new creature and not ever really a Christian and thus not ever “Once Saved” to begin with.

If truly saved, truly converted, and truly sold out to Jesus there is no going back. Thus OSAS.

I could be wrong but it does not matter. I am not turning back to what I once was.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I explain OSAS with John 10:27-29.

Scripture says that when we accept Christ we become a new creature. Since one cannot be both “new” and “old” at the same time, I hold that once a person is a new creature in Christ Jesus he cannot be what he was.

Therefore, if a person is thought to “backslide” and thus “lost” his salvation, then I would suspect that person was never really a new creature and not ever really a Christian and thus not ever “Once Saved” to begin with.

If truly saved, truly converted, and truly sold out to Jesus there is no going back. Thus OSAS.

I could be wrong but it does not matter. I am not turning back to what I once was.

Then a person who becomes saved and under the doctrine of once saved always saved has to wonder if he is really and truly saved? What about Christians like Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Baker or Jim Jones? You’re saying they were never saved to begin with? What about people those type preachers lead to Christ, are they saved or not? Sounds like people can have no confidence in their salvation. I mean how do you find peace of the Lord if you always have to wonder if you’re really saved to begin with? No one knows what their futures hold.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Rom 8:16 For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit that we are the sons of God.
Rom 8:17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

1Co 9:27 But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

Gal 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.

2Ti 2:11 A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him.
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making him a mockery.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[New_Mom_Katie]

I think the book Acts has an excellent example of why OSAS simply doesn’t work.

Simon was a Christian, but when he tried to buy the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit from the apostles, Peter said to him,

“‘Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.’” (vs. 22-23)

Simon was going to go to Hell if he didn’t repent, because he was in sin. But he was a Christian—can he still go to Hell for this sin? Yes, or his need to repent would not be urgent, like this is.

 

[GailMac]

I think one of the problems with the “once saved always saved” theory is the notion of what it means to be “saved.” The Church never taught the notion of being “saved” as a permanent state of being that occurs once someone accepts Jesus into their lives. But the notion of being “saved” in a protestant context is wholly a new idea, even though it may be a few hundred years old.

I see this as an expression of a emotional way of dealing with the doubts that plague most protestants about their personal salvation. It neatly disposes of the need to repent and make changes in one’s life, it gives the believer a false hope that they are never going to do anything that will send them to Hell, and that all those doubts and misgivings can be forgotten. It also ensures them a permanent pew in the denomination of their choosing if they go along with everyone else, and just “believe” that they are among the “elect” and as long as they don’t ever “stray” from the course their particular denomination promotes, they will go to Heaven.

No need to look into what the Bible really teaches, nor try to understand what God means to them. There are plenty of emotional experiences in their regular Sunday worship services to keep them confident in their pastor’s ability to get them to Heaven. Not wanting to admit one’s sins or see the fallacy of this error in thinking is the glue that binds them to those same pew seats week after week. It isn’t that they can’t believe the Truth, but letting the light of the Gospel shine on certain of their beliefs, they will certainly loose their “salvation” because they will begin to see how wrong and dangerous this kind of error actually is. But what will they really lose? The only thing they lose by finding the Truth is the comforting “assurance” that they are in the right denomination, an emotional attachment and perhaps a few friends.

Can this actually be what God intended as a Merciful Savior? We in the Church know different. Praise God for the gift of faith we share here. One thing that surely strikes anyone who enters into dialog with those of our brothers and sisters in Christ who are seperated from us by error is the enormity of the Gift we have been given in being able to be called Catholic.

Peace,

Gail

 

[distracted]

ISince one cannot be both “new” and “old” at the same time, I hold that once a person is a new creature in Christ Jesus he cannot be what he was.

This is not reality. A “saved” person can turn his back on Christ and commit any sin he wants to… and sin changes people, cause the grace of God in them to “go away” to one degree or another… sin does such horrible things to our souls and our relationship with God (who is Holy)… that Jesus had to go through what He did to save us… Sin is the onlything that can separate us from God… & it does separate…

Therefore, if a person is thought to “backslide” and thus “lost” his salvation, then I would suspect that person was never really a new creature and not ever really a Christian and thus not ever “Once Saved” to begin with.

this is a such fuzzy thinking to me… for one thing, none of us can say who is “saved” at any given moment & who is not… We can’t presume one way or the other whether a given person was ever really saved or what… What… Was he faking when he said he accepted Christ?? why would someone say such a thing if he didn’t think or feel it to be true.? This kind of thinking just does NOT make sense … not very objective, to say the least…

truly saved, truly converted, and truly sold out to Jesus there is no going back. Thus OSAS.

all i can say is that you seem to underestimate the power of sin. Even if a person falls into some sin out of weakness, never really intending to do so… that sin has stained his soul… distorted it… & he must go through a lot of cleansing in order to get back to where he was before the sin… I began seeing this very clearly when i began to pray the rosary… a very powerful prayer against Satan and sin.

 

[distracted]

I think one of the problems with the “once saved always saved” theory is the notion of what it means to be “saved.” The Church never taught the notion of being “saved” as a permanent state of being that occurs once someone accepts Jesus into their lives. But the notion of being “saved” in a protestant context is wholly a new idea, even though it may be a few hundred years old.

I see this as an expression of a emotional way of dealing with the doubts that plague most protestants about their personal salvation. It neatly disposes of the need to repent and make changes in one’s life, it gives the believer a false hope that they are never going to do anything that will send them to Hell, and that all those doubts and misgivings can be forgotten. It also ensures them a permanent pew in the denomination of their choosing if they go along with everyone else, and just “believe” that they are among the “elect” and as long as they don’t ever “stray” from the course their particular denomination promotes, they will go to Heaven.

No need to look into what the Bible really teaches, nor try to understand what God means to them. There are plenty of emotional experiences in their regular Sunday worship services to keep them confident in their pastor’s ability to get them to Heaven. Not wanting to admit one’s sins or see the fallacy of this error in thinking is the glue that binds them to those same pew seats week after week.
l

very well said. I know people who believe OSAS and they get very irritated with me… though they usually tried to hide their irritation… when i talk of this sin or that sin that they may be committing… For example, when i am around this kind of person and speak of all the sex, sex, sex on TV, he/she gets uncomfortable… because the person watches TV… soap operas, etc… (sin city!)… this one person doesn’t even mention Christian “things” around me anymore… probably because wants to be free to do whatever…

One thing i have learned in my years on this earth is how very willing we humans are to rationalize our behaviors… and lie to ourselves… the capacity to lie to ourselves is tremendous… although most don’t think they are believing lies… (conscioiusly anyway)… The devil lies to us and we listen… sometimes we are just ignorant & don’t realize its a lie… but when we get a clue that it is a lie… well, then we are held accountable… and if we don’t get such a clue… we are still muddying up our souls with all our sins… (that we don’t think are sins) & that mud has to be washed off in the painful place/condition called Purgatory… No unclean thing will enter Heaven (Rev 21:27)

 

[distracted]

.
Jesus did not say that you had to be “born again” many times.
We would have to go from being a child of God back to an “unadopted child” of God again and again by your explanation.

Jesus said to the Apostles: “Whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained” (St. John 20:19)… We are given confession for the absolution of our sins… and so, in a sense, we are given the Holy Spirit over and over again through this and other sacraments…

Why did i say “in a sense”? That is exactly what happens… You can have the Holy Spirit in a big way one day and thorugh sin, lose it the next… Maybe not entirely… but if you keep sinning, you will lose the Holy Spirit entirely… (for all intents and purposes)…

 

[distracted]

A person who has accepted Christ and afterwards sins (which is all of us)… still has an awareness of the Holy Spirit… but if the person sins again… and then rationalizes and sins again… and etc… that person, depending on the gravity of the sin… doesn’t really lose his conscience… (although some do) so he stil can be said to have the Holy Spirit… but sin opens the door to Satan and all his demons/followers… and God will NOT abide with those entitities… God goes away when there is great sin without repentance…

and we are then left alone to fight the devil… in all our weakness… With repentance, we are no longer alone… but the damage is still there to be dealt with…

Jesus said that many will not make it to Heaven because they will not be “strong enough” … strong enough to fight evil… Satan…
a person not in a state of grace eventually loses even the desire to be there… (in grace)…