Protestants who accept OSAS: How do you explain these scriptures?

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I can see where my wording may have confused you.
Instead of re-wording it, let me say that I believe that Jesus’ one Sacrifice at Calvary paid for every sin past, present, and future of any person who is born again by the Holy Spirit into God’s family. This happens when God calls that person to come to and have true faith in Jesus and what Jesus did to redeem us from all of our sin.
Any chastisement that a born again person gets later, from the already forgiven sin which occurred before or after being saved, is what God the Father does to keep God’s born-again children in line. The born-again person’s children, if he has any, are not what I was speaking about. Prodigal Son 1 was the one who brought that up and I disagreed with that idea.
forgive for intruding here. this whole thing seems very confusing.
it seems to me that the protestant belief is that because Jesus died for our sins, they believe they are free from any punishement when they commit a sin. am i wrong?

as i understand Christ died that we may be healed meaning we may reach salvation. it does not mean we are not responsible for our sins anymore, we still are.

when we commit sins, it is my understand that we are still accountable for it. punishement for our sins it is still a norm otherwise we could forget about God being just. am i wrong?

peace.
 
That isn’t entirely true. Let’s examine some of the teachings of the founder of the Protestants:
Luther most certainly did hold to Mary’s perpetual virginity, he did not view it as an article of faith that must be adhered to in order to be in union with the Church as the modern Roman dogma contests.

“Scripture does not quibble or speak about the virginity of Mary after the birth of Christ, a matter about which the hypocrites are greatly concerned, as if it were something of the utmost importance on which our whole salvation depended. Actually, we should be satisfied simply to hold that she remained a virgin after the birth of Christ because Scripture does not state or indicate that she later lost her virginity… But the Scripture stops with this, that she was a virgin before and at the birth of Christ; for up to this point God had need of her virginity in order to give us the promised blessed seed without sin (Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, 45: 205-206).”

“Now just take a look at the perverse lauders of the mother of God. If you ask them why they hold so strongly to the virginity of Mary, they truly could not say. These stupid idolators do nothing more than to glorify only the mother of God; they extol her for her virginity and practically make a false deity of her. But Scripture does not praise this virginity at all for the sake of the mother; neither was she saved on account of her virginity. Indeed, cursed be this and every other virginity if it exists for its own sake, and accomplishes nothing better than its own profit and praise (Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, 45: 205-206).”

As with Mary’s perpetual virginity, he also held to the Immaculate Conception, but again, not as an article which must be held to for salvation’s sake or for unity with the Church,

“The Roman church along with the general council at Basel and almost with the whole church feels that the Holy Virgin was conceived without sin. Yet those who hold the opposite opinion should not be considered heretics, since their opinion has not been disproved (Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, 31:173).”

“In regard to the conception of our Lady [the papacy has] admitted that, since this article is not necessary to salvation, it is neither heresy nor error when some hold that she was conceived in sin, although in this case council, pope, and the majority hold a different view (Martin Luther, Luther’s Works, 32: 79-80).”

By the end of his career, his position had changed. In 1544, Luther rejected the idea that "through the centuries a pure strain (massa imperdita) had been preserved from which Christ ultimately came. In his lectures on Gen. 38:1-5 he calls attention to the immorality and incest to be found among our Lord’s ancestors according to the flesh. (Martin Luther, What Luther Says, Vol. 1, ed. Ewald Martin Plass, St Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959, 151. This is the editors comment.)

Rather than long treatises on the subject, Luther again shifts the emphasis from the mother to the Messiah. Rather than discussing Mary’s sinlessness, he insisted Christ’s sinlessness was due entirely to the miraculous work of the Holy Spirit during conception. In 1532 he preached:

“Mother Mary, like us, was born in sin of sinful parents, but the Holy Spirit covered her, sanctified and purified her so that this child was born of flesh and blood, but not with sinful flesh and blood. The Holy Spirit permitted the Virgin Mary to remain a true, natural human being of flesh and blood, just as we. However, he warded off sin from her flesh and blood so that she became the mother of a pure child, not poisoned by sin as we are…For in that moment when she conceived, she was a holy mother filled with the Holy Spirit and her fruit is a holy pure fruit, at once God and truly man, in one person (Martin Luther, Sermons of Martin Luther, Vol. 3, ed. John Nicholas Lenker, Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1996, 291).”
 
Jesus is not described as having baptized anyone with water in the Bible.

Jesus was described by John the Baptist as “He that cometh” to baptize “with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:” (Matt.3:11)
It is irrelevent that He Himself did not baptize with water. He instituted the Sacrament before His ascension. His apostles and their disciples later explain the meaning of that institution, as St. Paul does with the Lord’s Supper. Water baptism in the Name of the Triune God is Holy Spirit baptism. Scripture never separates the two in ordinary cases.

The Word preached is also the means of regeneration, as is baptism. So the fact that there was regeneration without baptism is not a contradiction, since both baptism and the Word are means of grace.
 
Luther most certainly did hold to Mary’s perpetual virginity, he did not view it as an article of faith that must be adhered to in order to be in union with the Church as the modern Roman dogma contests.
That is Luther’s major error - private interpretation, the same error that he used to support bigamy in the case of Philip of Hesse. :ouch: Anything goes when you are you own authority.
 
That is Luther’s major error - private interpretation, the same error that he used to support bigamy in the case of Philip of Hesse. :ouch: Anything goes when you are you own authority.
The Roman Church did not hold it as an article of faith at that point, either. Amazing how apologists love to use Luther only when it suits them. 😃
 
The Roman Church did not hold it as an article of faith at that point, either. Amazing how apologists love to use Luther only when it suits them. 😃
The ante-Nicence Church fathers wrote about Mary’s perpetual virginity. Having always been taught, it was nothing new even in Luther’s time. I wonder where Luther learned it from? :hmmm:
 
The ante-Nicence Church fathers wrote about Mary’s perpetual virginity. Having always been taught, it was nothing new even in Luther’s time. I wonder where Luther learned it from? :hmmm:
I didn’t say it was new; It wasnt required for unity with the Church as it is today.
 
I didn’t say it was new; It wasnt required for unity with the Church as it is today.
Acceptance of everything the Church teaches is and always has been required for unity with the Church. Considering the fundamental profession of faith, the Nicene Creed states:
“For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit, he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.”
You are grasping at straws. Mary’s virginity was no different then as it is now. Church teaching hasn’t changed.
 
forgive for intruding here. this whole thing seems very confusing.
it seems to me that the protestant belief is that because Jesus died for our sins, they believe they are free from any punishement when they commit a sin. am i wrong?

as i understand Christ died that we may be healed meaning we may reach salvation. it does not mean we are not responsible for our sins anymore, we still are.

when we commit sins, it is my understand that we are still accountable for it. punishement for our sins it is still a norm otherwise we could forget about God being just. am i wrong?

peace.
A born again person is free from eternal damnation once that person is regenerated from the “dead in your sins” state of being that all begin with.
That does not give that saved person freedom from punishment if he continues sinning. David would be a good example of how God punishes His disobedient children. David still did not lose his salvation, although he was miserable for a long time as a result of his sins. David was punished all the rest of his physical life for his sins.

You use the words “may reach salvation” which indicates that you believe salvation is only a possibility and not a sure thing in this life.

In (John 5:24), Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, HATH everlasting life, and SHALL NOT come into condemnation; but IS PASSED from death unto life.”

Those who say that this clear statement does not mean what it says, about a sure present salvation for a true believer, are effectively calling Jesus a “liar”.
 
A born again person is free from eternal damnation once that person is regenerated from the “dead in your sins” state of being that all begin with.
That does not give that saved person freedom from punishment if he continues sinning. David would be a good example of how God punishes His disobedient children. David still did not lose his salvation, although he was miserable for a long time as a result of his sins. David was punished all the rest of his physical life for his sins.

You use the words “may reach salvation” which indicates that you believe salvation is only a possibility and not a sure thing in this life.

In (John 5:24), Jesus said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, HATH everlasting life, and SHALL NOT come into condemnation; but IS PASSED from death unto life.”

Those who say that this clear statement does not mean what it says, about a sure present salvation for a true believer, are effectively calling Jesus a “liar”.
OSAS believers always point to a couple of verses to show support for it… you know as well as I do that there are many verses that show other requirements are necesarry (ex. love and forgiveness)… and since we know the Bible doesn’t contradict itself, then both must be true… you can’t remove the ones that speak of these other requirements that are needed to remain favorable in God’s eyes and to avoid being cut off like the branches of an olive tree… Again if it is so clear than why was it not believed by the early Christians?

This is probably the thing that is the most frustrating to me… People throw out these passages that they say support their beliefs, when they are completely different from what the early Christians taught, and then say how blind we are for not seeing it. brkn1 have you read what the early Christians taught and how they interpreted Scripture… remember these men were much closer to the Apostles time and language then you and I. If you are at all sincere about furthering your search for the truth I think you would find their writings very interesting… if nothing else you would realize that us modern day Catholics aren’t the only crazy ones.

SD
 
Acceptance of everything the Church teaches is and always has been required for unity with the Church. Considering the fundamental profession of faith, the Nicene Creed states:
“For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit, he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.”
You are grasping at straws. Mary’s virginity was no different then as it is now. Church teaching hasn’t changed.
I am not; when was it dogmatically defined? Can you point to anyone being excommunicated prior to its dogmatic definition? When was it first required for unity with Rome? Any documents to back that assertion?
 
I am not; when was it dogmatically defined? Can you point to anyone being excommunicated prior to its dogmatic definition? When was it first required for unity with Rome? Any documents to back that assertion?
The perpetual virginity of Mary has always been taught by the Church. It was defined as dogma at the Lateran Synod (A. D. 649) under Pope Martin I.

You seem to have a fundamentalist/legalist misunderstanding as to why the Church makes definitive statements about the faith.

catholic.com/library/immaculate_conception_and_assum.asp

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was “invented” at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.

Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.
 
Rom 6:1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

We die to sin and are under God’s grace, but Paul says why if you are dead to sin would you continue to live in it?

The bible does not teach once saved, always saved. God has forgiven us so much, but if we aren’t willing to forgive others we won’t be forgiven ourselves. Unforgiveness is one way to lose salvation, yes. Unrepentance and consistent living in sin could also mean losing salvation.

Hope this helps.
 
The bible does not teach once saved, always saved. God has forgiven us so much, but if we aren’t willing to forgive others we won’t be forgiven ourselves. Unforgiveness is one way to lose salvation, yes. Unrepentance and consistent living in sin could also mean losing salvation.

Hope this helps.
If you adhere to Sola Scriptura the Bible can teach anything you want. :hypno:
 
“Once Saved Always Saved” or “OSAS” is an errant belief that many Protestant Christians hold to and there are many different “Protestant” definitions of what “OSAS” actually means, which leads us to the second errant Protestant belief, which allows for “Personal Interpretation of the Bible”.

These two beliefs came from man’s ego and and his own intellect and not from God. They are both anti-biblical and anti-Christian, they are nonsensical and they do not work in the real world.

These beliefs cause division and many, million individual cases, where people actually belong to the “religion of their own intellect and ego” and not to any Church that Jesus Christ founded and that God intended for all men.

I am a Roman Catholic, so obviously I disagree with these two fabricated, man-made errors; “OSAS” and “Personal Interpretation of the Bible”.
 
And why do you think it is safer to let a church interpret it for you? You have a brain, you can read… Jesus encouraged us to search the scriptures to see if these things were so.

I would be asking the bigger question… why does the Catholic church think it needs to interpret it FOR you? Why did it burn bibles throughout history and burn Christians at the stake for heresy if they spoke against the Church?

God said Thou shalt not kill… so will the real church of Christ please stand up.
 
And why do you think it is safer to let a church interpret it for you? You have a brain, you can read… Jesus encouraged us to search the scriptures to see if these things were so.
What of the heresies of Arianism, Pelagianism, and Manichaeism?

If Sola Scriptura truly was taught by Jesus and Apostles as the intentioned manner of forming doctrine, there’s no reason why these heresies should have been condemned – disagreed with, perhaps, but with Sola Scriptura, there is no authority to crush the serpent of heresy, because the men who adhered to these errors could support their views from Scriptures just as easily as you can use them to support your interpretation.

I am interested in how one who believes in Sola Scriptura would approach the heresies of the early Church. If both the heretic and the orthodox believer are both “being led by the Holy Spirit” (or so they claim) when interpreting, how does one crush the evil of heresy?
I would be asking the bigger question… why does the Catholic church think it needs to interpret it FOR you?
I’m sure Arius and Mani would share that sentiment. They believed they had the right to interpret the Scriptures for themselves and promulgate their conclusions.
Why did it burn bibles throughout history and burn Christians at the stake for heresy if they spoke against the Church?
I assume you’re talking about capital punishment for heretics following the Patristic period.

First: The Catholic Church itself did not have the final say in punishment for those that it identified as heretics. That was left, ultimately, to the power of the state. The Catholic Church, of course, could always advise the state on the proper punishment, which of course may have been capital punishment. The state also had a vested interest in killing identified heretics because they posed a significant threat to the order, same as any identified revolutionary who was a threat to the state.

Second: What would you do if you were put in the situation? There are heretics promoting error running around. Would you just let them go unhindered, endangering the spiritual lives of Christians?
 
What of the heresies of Arianism, Pelagianism, and Manichaeism?

If Sola Scriptura truly was taught by Jesus and Apostles as the intentioned manner of forming doctrine, there’s no reason why these heresies should have been condemned – disagreed with, perhaps, but with Sola Scriptura, there is no authority to crush the serpent of heresy, because the men who adhered to these errors could support their views from Scriptures just as easily as you can use them to support your interpretation.
No one claims that Jesus and the Apostles taught Sola Scriptura; Sola Scriptura only addresses the normative authority after revelation has been given.
I am interested in how one who believes in Sola Scriptura would approach the heresies of the early Church. If both the heretic and the orthodox believer are both “being led by the Holy Spirit” (or so they claim) when interpreting, how does one crush the evil of heresy?
The faithful bishops, clerics, and laymen when those heresies were being spread used Scripture to counteract them.
I’m sure Arius and Mani would share that sentiment. They believed they had the right to interpret the Scriptures for themselves and promulgate their conclusions.
Actually, the majority of the “infallible Magisterium” agreed with Arius for several decades. Athanasius Contra Mundi.
 
And why do you think it is safer to let a church interpret it for you? You have a brain, you can read… Jesus encouraged us to search the scriptures to see if these things were so.
There are some estimates that say there are approximately 35,000 different denominations, outside the Catholic faith. All built on someone’s private interpretation. If you divided up those 35,000 into groups that have the same doctrine, you’ll still have thousands of different churches built on different doctrines. Doctrines that are based on someone’s private interpretation.

Until Luther started the reformation in the early 1500s, there was one Church. Luther’s defense before the one Church was based on his private interpretation. Once Luther had successfully broke away, he realized he had opened a can of worms. Some of his followers started to break away from Luther’s church and start their own church, based on their private interpretation. Luther tried to stop the schisms from his church using the argument that his interpretation was correct, because he had thought of it first. Early on, Luther even resorted to threatening death to try and stop the schisms.

As we know today, Luther was unsuccessful at stopping the schisms. This is evident by the fact that instead of two Churches, there are thousands of denominations.

Christ started one Church. The Bible preaches one Church.
Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.
Eph 4:3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.
Php 2:2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
Rom 15:5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Rom 15:6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
Joh 17:21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
Joh 17:23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–Jews or Greeks, slaves or free–and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in the one body. And be thankful.
You ask that the real Church stand up. The real Church was built on rock and has been standing for around 2000 years. Even though all Christian churches believe in Christ, they are not speaking with one mind and one judgement, and there certainly has been dissensions, or schisms.

Even though 1 Corinthians 1:10 is listed above in the Revised Version of the Bible, I prefer the Douay-Rheims Bible, which was translated from the Latin Vulgate and is possibly the earliest English translation.
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no schisms among you: but that you be perfect in the same mind and in the same judgment.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
 
Jesus encouraged us to search the scriptures to see if these things were so.
I’d be very interested in seeing the verse where Jesus encouraged us to search the scriptures. The reason being, the only scriptures that were available during the life of Christ was the Old Testament and this wasn’t the same books of the Old Testament as you know it today.

Some of the first books and letters that comprise the New Testament were written around the 60s AD, approximately 30 years after the death of our Lord. Other books were written later than that. Some of the first letters/books were written because the authors had been arrested.

Prior to the letters and books being written, scriptures were shared through oral tradition. Jesus himself, taught scriptures through oral tradition. The Apostles taught from oral tradition. Once they had been arrested, they could only continue their teachings and instructions through the written text.

All these letters and books were held by the individual Churches they had been written too.

Now there came a time that the books and letters were researched by the Church to decide what books and letters were truly God breathed, or inspired. The earliest decision of the Church on a canon (which books/letters would be included into the New Testament to make one Holy Bible) was in the year 360AD.

If you’re interested in knowing more about the processes of the canon, please click here (this is where I got the information provided below).
Melito, bishop of Sardis, an ancient city of Asia Minor (see Rev 3), c. 170 AD produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther.

The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today’s canon. This was one of the Church’s earliest decisions on a canon.

Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today’s canon.

The Council of Rome, 382, was the forum which prompted Pope Damasus’ Decree.

Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse wrote to Pope Innocent I in 405 requesting a list of canonical books. Pope Innocent listed the present canon.

The Council of Hippo, a local north Africa council of bishops created the list of the Old and New Testament books in 393 which is the same as the Roman Catholic list today.

The Council of Carthage, a local north Africa council of bishops created the same list of canonical books in 397. This is the council which many Protestant and Evangelical Christians take as the authority for the New Testament canon of books. The Old Testament canon from the same council is identical to Roman Catholic canon today. Another Council of Carthage in 419 offered the same list of canonical books.

Since the Roman Catholic Church does not define truths unless errors abound on the matter, Roman Catholic Christians look to the Council of Florence, an ecumenical council in 1441 for the first definitive list of canonical books.

The final infallible definition of canonical books for Roman Catholic Christians came from the Council of Trent in 1556 in the face of the errors of the Reformers who rejected seven Old Testament books from the canon of scripture to that time.
Now, before you accuse the Catholic Church of “adding” to the Bible, because our Bible has more books, I’d like to summarize how that came about.

There was only one Holy Bible up until the 1500s. When Luther started his reformation, that started the first protestant church, he didn’t like all the books of the Bible. Luther removed those that conflicted with his beliefs. Therefore, the Catholic Bible has 7 more books in the Old Testament than the protestant version of the Bible. Luther wanted to remove more, but some of this supporters warned him, to do so would make him just another fanatic. Luther referred to the book of James as, ole Jimmy, fit for the fireplace. He also had problems with other books/letters of the New Testament but gave in to those warnings from his supporters.

All the information above is easily verified, by many sources. The Bible did not fall out of the sky, nor was it written and handed down as one Holy Bible, as some assume.

Now, since the Church decided which books/letters were to be included, there were writings that were evidently not the inspired word of God or were written too far beyond the death of Christ to be considered as reliable. Many false bibles were produced. The Church did burn those bibles, to protect the people from false teachings.

If you’d like to preview some of those writings that was rejected from the Bible, please click here. This website also includes some writings from the early Church fathers. I prefer to go directly to their writings in this website.

To know history, is to be Catholic.

All this information verifies that the Holy Bible you say everyone should read, came through the Catholic Church, including the St. James Version. The parts missing from your Bible were removed by Luther as I stated previously.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1
 
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