Protestants: Who are your 'Saints' in Heaven?

[GKMotley]

Sure. Also, certainly. To make up 10 characters.

 

[ltwin]

I didn’t understand very well your explanation on the 2nd paragraph about every christian being a saint, so I won’t comment.

The word “saint” comes from Latin sanctus (meaning “holy”), which is the past participle of sancire (meaning “to consecrate”), by way of the Old French word seint. All true Christians are holy (consecrated to God) and therefore are saints (Hebrews 10:10, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17).

These members of the church of Ephesus are the ones St. Paul calls saints. He calls them so because when he consecrated them, the Holy Ghost descended in their souls and they became able to preach in various languages and perform many miracles. They were not ordinary people who only had faith. The Holy Ghost, through St. Paul the Apostle, officially made them saints of the church of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

With all due respect, you are reading a meaning of saint into the New Testament that is not there. It is clear that when “saint” is used it refers to all the members of the church or all the Christians in a given locality: 1 Corinthians 1:2, Ephesians 4:12, Ephesians 5:3, Acts 9:13, Acts 9:32, etc.

It is not only referring to bishops, presbyters or deacons. Neither is it referring to persons who have extraordinary gifts of the Spirit.

 

[Aulef]

Aulef:

I didn’t understand very well your explanation…

But I’d like to alert you about the…

In both the old and new Testaments the terms saints was used to describe those who are faithful to God.

To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: 1 Corinthians 1:2

So in a very real sense, Saints are all of those who have faith in Christ. This is the evangelical understanding of the word and how we apply it. There are saints who have went on before us and are in heaven, saints that are alive today, and future saints who will one day be born again by the work of the Holy Spirit.

We celebrate the legacy of the saints who have passed into Heaven, we fellowship and worship and serve with the saints here on earth, and we seek for people to become saints by the preaching the Gospel of Christ so that as Christ convicts people of the fact they are a sinner and need a savior they will be born again by the Spirit and place their faith in Christ.

Aulef:

I didn’t understand very well…

The word “saint” comes from Latin sanctus (meaning “holy”), which is the past participle of sancire (meaning “to consecrate”), by way of the Old French word seint. All true Christians are holy (consecrated to God) and therefore are saints (Hebrews 10:10, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17).

These members of the church of Ephesus…

With all due respect, you are reading a meaning of saint into the New Testament that is not there. It is clear that when “saint” is used it refers to all the members of the church or all the Christians in a given locality: 1 Corinthians 1:2, Ephesians 4:12, Ephesians 5:3, Acts 9:13, Acts 9:32, etc.

It is not only referring to bishops, presbyters or deacons. Neither is it referring to persons who have extraordinary gifts of the Spirit.

Gentlemen, please, notice that I wasn’t talking about the meaning of the word “saint”. I am aware that this word is a quality a person may have.

What I am trying to show you is that the epistle mentioned refers to a particular group of people who are identified in historical accounts by early church historians. The events I told you actually happened. And only these people, bishops and presbyters, are adressed by Saint Paul, in that letter, as saints.

@Itwin Knowing the context of the Sacred Scriptures is very important. The same logic applies to all these verses you cited. By members of the Church, you need to know whether they are presbyters and laymen, or only the former, and who these people are.

St. Paul had helped found most of the churches in those cities (Ephesus, Corinth etc.) before he wrote the letters, so he knows exactly who he is communicating with. And so do we, who study early Church history and Tradition.

 

[ltwin]

What I am trying to show you is that the epistle mentioned refers to a particular group of people who are identified in historical accounts by early church historians. The events I told you actually happened. And only these people, bishops and presbyters, are adressed by Saint Paul, in that letter, as saints.

Where does Paul say he is only addressing congregational leadership? He says his letter is to all the faithful in Ephesus. In other letters, Paul is clearly addressing entire congregations: Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 1, 2 Corinthians 1, Galatians 1, Colossians 1, 1 Thessalonians 1, and 2 Thessalonians 1.

In Philippians 1, Paul actually greets “all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons.” Paul first greets all the Christians of Philippi (the saints) and then specifically calls out the bishops and deacons, so it is clear that Paul does not use “saint” as shorthand for “leadership” but is using “saint” as a reference to all Christians.

@Itwin Knowing the context of the Sacred Scriptures is very important. The same logic applies to all these verses you cited. By members of the Church, you need to know whether they are presbyters and laymen, or only the former, and who these people are.

St. Paul had helped found most of the churches in those cities (Ephesus, Corinth etc.) before he wrote the letters, so he knows exactly who he is communicating with. And so do we, who study early Church history and Tradition.

Not sure what point you are trying to make here. Of course context is important, but I fail to see how trying to wrestle the text to exclude lay people from Paul’s greeting helps us to understand the Scriptures better. These letters would have been read out in the churches they were sent to and in other churches as well (Colossians 4:16). They were always intended to have a general audience within the church.

 

[Aulef]

Read carefully the Acts of the Apostles. Not verses, but the whole accounts. Try to grasp the big picture. Once you reach the stories about Saint Paul, read carefully who he is interacting with when going around Asia Minor, and who clearly receives the Holy Ghost by the hands of him. And remember that God inhabits only the sanctified places and people, just like the misterious cloud of God would only inhabit the Holy of Holies.

 

[ltwin]

Read carefully the Acts of the Apostles.

I have. Given the tradition I was raised in, I am probably more familiar with Acts than most average lay people.

Try to grasp the big picture.

Uh huh.

Once you reach the stories about Saint Paul, read carefully who he is interacting with when going around Asia Minor, and who clearly receives the Holy Ghost by the hands of him.

The “big picture” in Acts is that every person can receive the Holy Spirit. Isn’t that the whole point of Catholic Confirmation? Your own catechism states, “It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost” (page 330). Paul no doubt laid hands on many people in the early days of the church.

And remember that God inhabits only the sanctified places and people, just like the misterious cloud of God would only inhabit the Holy of Holies.

Does he inhabit you? If he does not dwell in you, then you are not a Christian and need to be converted. Christians are by definition people inhabited by the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 6:19).

 

[Aulef]

Ok. I’ll be more specific. Read carefully again Acts 18, 19 and 20. In turn, instead of answering me right away, just give it a thought. Remember that our conversation is about who the saints St Paul is addressing are. And this is the last time I try this. You will have the last word if you insist avoiding it.

One more thing. Saying that every person can receive the Holy Ghost means nothing, really. Every person can also go to hell, too. Besides, the very quote you made about the Catecism says nothing about “every person”. It only explains a little about what happens in the sacrament of Confirmation. Oh, and, yes, St Paul laid hands on many people. Guess who. Bishops and other presbyters. The ones he adressed when he wrote those letters.

Regarding the Holy Ghost inhabiting me, well, He does when I’m not in state of sin.

Finally, about your Corinthians citation, well, you did it again, just like you did with Ephesians. No need to repeat myself here.

Peace.

 

[ltwin]

Ok. I’ll be more specific. Read carefully again Acts 18, 19 and 20. In turn, instead of answering me right away, just give it a thought. Remember that our conversation is about who the saints St Paul is addressing are. And this is the last time I try this. You will have the last word if you insist avoiding it.

One more thing. Saying that every person can receive the Holy Ghost means nothing, really. Every person can also go to hell, too. Besides, the very quote you made about the Catecism says nothing about “every person”. It only explains a little about what happens in the sacrament of Confirmation. Oh, and, yes, St Paul laid hands on many people. Guess who. Bishops and other presbyters. The ones he adressed when he wrote those letters.

Regarding the Holy Ghost inhabiting me, well, He does when I’m not in state of sin.

Finally, about your Corinthians citation, well, you did it again, just like you did with Ephesians. No need to repeat myself here.

Peace.

Listen, if you want to argue that Paul was only speaking to bishops and presbyters and that anyone who is not in Holy Orders is not included in the promises of Scripture or even simply Paul’s greetings to the churches, you go right ahead. I think its an eccentric interpretation, but its a free country. I guess this guy was also ordained too, since Paul is only speaking to people he laid hands on:

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?

The point is, as Christians, we are to be saints. Holy. Not just bishops and priests. All of us. All of us are inhabited by the Spirit. All of us are consecrated and should live accordingly. This message is for all Christians.

 

[ltwin]

Besides, the very quote you made about the Catecism says nothing about “every person”. It only explains a little about what happens in the sacrament of Confirmation. Oh, and, yes, St Paul laid hands on many people. Guess who. Bishops and other presbyters. The ones he adressed when he wrote those letters.

The Bible and the Catechism does indeed teach that every person can be filled with the Spirit and that the Apostles laid hands on people not only to ordain them but to also impart the Holy Spirit (to both ordained and lay people). Page 326 of the Catechism emphasizes that the Spirit is for all:

In the Old Testament the prophets announced that the Spirit of the Lord would rest on the hoped-for Messiah for his saving mission. 91 The descent of the Holy Spirit on Jesus at his baptism by John was the sign that this was he who was to come, the Messiah, the Son of God. 92 He was conceived of the Holy Spirit; his whole life and his whole mission are carried out in total com- munion with the Holy Spirit whom the Father gives him “without measure.” 93

1287 This fullness of the Spirit was not to remain uniquely the Messiah’s, but was to be communicated to the whole messianic people. 94 On several occasions Christ promised this outpouring of the Spirit, 95 a promise which he fulfilled first on Easter Sunday and then more strikingly at Pentecost. 96 Filled with the Holy Spirit the apostles began to proclaim “the mighty works of God,” and Peter declared this outpouring of the Spirit to be the sign of the messianic age. 97 Those who believed in the apostolic preaching and were baptized received the gift of the Holy Spirit in their turn. 98

1288 “From that time on the apostles, in fulfillment of Christ’s will, imparted to the newly baptized by the laying on of hands the gift of the Spirit that completes the grace of Baptism. For this reason in the Letter to the Hebrews the doctrine concerning Baptism and the laying on of hands is listed among the first elements of Christian instruction. The imposition of hands is rightly recognized by the Catholic tradition as the origin of the sacrament of Confirmation, which in a certain way perpetuates the grace of Pentecost in the Church.”

 

[ReadTheBible]

The only saints we know are in Heaven are the ones mentioned in the Bible, Enoch and Elijah

Jesus said the following to Nicodemus in John chapter 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

In Matthew chapter 17 it states the following:

1. And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

There are 2 possibilities. Peter, James, and John saw a vision of what was to come or they saw a vision of the present. Two things stand out as evidence as to why this was a vision of what was to come. First Jesus directly stated no one has ascended to Heaven (I have to put in parenthesis that common sense lends one to believe he’s saying nobody that has died because we know Enoch and Elijah were caught up to God).
Secondly Jesus appeared in the vision being transfigured. He had yet to be crucified so the transfiguration hadn’t taken place yet.

1 Thessalonians 4 states the following: 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Corinthians chapter 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It is confirmed that Enoch didn’t die in Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

2nd Kings chapter 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Matthew chapter 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So from my Protestant Christian belief, and belonging to no church denomination, but believing everything in the Bible it’s clear that there certainly were and continue to be “Saints”… But, every single one of these Saints are indeed dead and are asleep in death.There are many more places in the Bible where it talks about the 1st death being sleep.