Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary

[JustaServant]

2.
God’s Word commands us to pray for one another:
1 Timothy 2:1-4 “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”
There is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that not even death can separate us from Christ:
Rom. 8:38-39 “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord"
Is not the Church the Body of Christ?

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Mt 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Lu 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents (how did they know the sinner repented?) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Tobit 12:14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."

2Maccabees 15: 11 He (Judas Maccabee) armed each of them not so much with confidence in shields and spears as with the inspiration of brave words, and he cheered them all by relating a dream, a sort of vision, which was worthy of belief. 12 What he saw was this: Onias, who had been high priest, a noble and good man, of modest bearing and gentle manner, one who spoke fittingly and had been trained from childhood in all that belongs to excellence, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole body of the Jews. 13 Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. 14 And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

 

[JustaServant]

3.
Part of understanding the Communion of Saints, is that we ask for those living and dead to intercede or carry our prayers to Jesus.
Mary is a part of this Communion of Saints.
She is in a very real sense, our mystical connection to the spiritual Church.
How do we understand this?
In Gen. 3:15 we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” The phrase “her seed” is not seen elsewhere in Scripture. The Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling Satan. This teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve. In John 2:4 and 19:26 Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.Isaiah 7:14 and Matt. 1:23 tell us a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” Luke 1:35 tells us the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”). In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says Mary is the “Mother of my Lord” which is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God”. Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God.
Luke 1:28 states “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel. When Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the very words of God. The phrase “full of grace”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. A few verses down, Luke 1:42 says “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” Luke 1:48 says Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary”. Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, Catholics are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

 

[JustaServant]

4.
Nowhere in Catholic teaching is there anything that directs Catholics to worship Mary. Catholics do not ‘worship’ Mary, we do however venerate her.Venerate means To regard with respect, reverence, and heartfelt deference.One of the 10 Commandments is “Honor your Father and your Mother.” One honors their father and mother and respects them. Catholics do so for their parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary.Worship means the reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object, which we do not accord to our parents.We pray “to” Mary in the old sense of the word. In Elizabethan English they would say "I pray thee…… It is a pleading to a person of dignity.
The Hail Mary says “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus! Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” We are first “praying the scriptures”, and second, we are asking Mary to pray for us to the Lord even as I might ask a living Christian to do. For “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”
Family members and friends pray with and for one another, because we are the family of God.
When God touched my heart and the wall of anti-Catholicism was demolished, praying the Hail Mary was the first act I performed.
I remember it vividly. My whole world was shaken. In a moment of time God ‘mugged me from behind’ and the truth of the Catholic Church shown like a light in darkness. When I got home that night, I went into my bedroom alone and closed the door. That night I did something that I hadn’t done in two decades. I prayed the Lord’s Prayer and the Hail Mary.
The Lord’s Prayer was easy, that I had done many times before. I was scared to death to pray the Hail Mary. It was like kissing my wife for the first time. It was something I wanted to do and years of bigotry were overcome. After I was done, the Holy Spirit filled me with a joy I cannot describe.
A weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I felt at peace for the first time in many years.

Remember, O gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly to thee, O Virgin of Virgins and my Mother; to thee I come, before thee I kneel, sinful and sorrowful; O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy, hear and answer me. Amen.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

This is for the Protestants who never knew much about our faith, and the true teaching’s of what our faith teaches on the Blessed Mother.

Has you changed your opinion any from the first time you started on this site, until now your feeling’s about her.

Is your understanding of what we really teach and what you thought we taught alot different?

No, I still see her as the Mother of God who did not commit any sin. I don’t think you or this site will change my opinion on that.

 

[JustaServant]

**Queen Mary **
In the ancient world, because the king had many brides, a woman did not receive the title of queen until her son took the throne. The queen was not married to the king, because there were far too many wives vying for such a title. And they couldn’t all be called queen. The position of queen was held by the king’s mother. She was known as the queen mother. If Mary’s Son has become the King of Kings (of both heaven and earth) then the Mother has become the Queen of heaven and earth
Pope Pius XII stated, “Mary is Queen by grace, by divine relationship, by right of conquest and by singular election. And her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.”
Our Lord also gave to the Church and each individual soul His Mother, the Queen of Heaven. For many centuries Christians have been accustomed to meditate upon the ruling power of Mary which embraces heaven and earth, when they consider the fifth glorious mystery of the rosary which can be called the mystical crown of the heavenly Queen.
To love Jesus is to also love His mother.

 

[Reuben_J]

…

The Lord’s Prayer was easy, that I had done many times before. I was scared to death to pray the Hail Mary. It was like kissing my wife for the first time. It was something I wanted to do and years of bigotry were overcome. After I was done, the Holy Spirit filled me with a joy I cannot describe.
A weight had been lifted from my shoulders. I felt at peace for the first time in many years.

Thank you for your lovely posts and your testimony.

God bless you.

 

[david_ruiz]

Unfortunately, he doesn’t refute that Kecharitomene is a perfect passive pariticple. Kecharitomene translates to “having been” or “have already been”. He compares it to echaritosen of Ephesian, which I have showed is an Aorist tense, very different meaning. His only last defense is saying that Catholics are reading too much into Kecharitomene?. However, the Early Fathers of Greek origin AGREE with Kecharitomene as sinlessness of Mary.

How early ? Certainly not 100 years after Christ .What is the first father denoting a sinless Mary,2-3 hundred years after ?

 

[david_ruiz]

It is not poor latin translation. See my previous post which addresses this.

Also, I see you believe in Imputed righteousness (see bolded part)?

yes, is there any other kind ,…of lasting value ?

 

[Patavium]

How early ? Certainly not 100 years after Christ .What is the first father denoting a sinless Mary,2-3 hundred years after ?

Ok, let me turn it around. What was the earliest argument against the sinlessness of Virgin Mary? Compared it to the earliest defense, and let’s assume that being closer to the Apostles or as early as possible is the benchmark for Acceptable.

 

[Patavium]

I respect the fact that you believe that Mary was sinless, but the point was that since this belief that Mary was sinless is based on the angel Gabriel saluting Mary by saying “Hail! Mary, full of grace!” [or 'Rejoice (or ‘Greetings!,’ Mary, you are favored!] in the Bible, when if ‘grace’ implies sinlessness, because Jesus was ‘full of grace’ & sinless, then why don’t you believe that Stephen was sinless too, since he was ‘full of grace,’ which uses the same Greek word for ‘grace’ as Jesus, but Mary’s word for ‘grace’ is different, which means ‘favored’? And Stephen was described of being ‘full of grace’ while he was alive.

I also respect that you ask Mary to pray for you, but Jesus tells us when we pray, to pray ‘this way’: “Our FATHER.” And, the writer of Hebrews gives us encouragement to “draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” It’s more encouraging for me to know that I go directly to God’s throne when I pray though Jesus, our High Priest, Intercessor, & ONLY Mediator between man & God, which is only possible, because Jesus is not only God in the presence of man, but also man in the presence of God.

I actually read your Greek translation, BTW, but with all due respect, I think you’re not quite understanding the meaning of the word grace, which means ‘unmerited, or unearned, FAVOR.’ Mary was ‘full of grace’ or ‘favored’ because out of all the women in Israel, God could have chosen, He picked Mary to fulfill Isaiah’s prophecy & bring our Lord miraculously into the world, proving that it wasn’t a normal human birth, but a Divine one!

God bless you too!

Steve,

How is Stephen and Mary the same?..

Look at their roles. Look at it in context.

 

[david_ruiz]

Ok, let me turn it around. What was the earliest argument against the sinlessness of Virgin Mary? Compared it to the earliest defense, and let’s assume that being closer to the Apostles or as early as possible is the benchmark for Acceptable.

I would guess around 60 AD . Luke probably got the story from Mary where she found favor with the Lord ,amongst all other women.and Paul who states all have sinned ,and the gospel that tells of Mary leaving Jesus behind for a whole day ,and the part where she went with Jesus brethren to bring Him back home cause they thought He was going too far in His ministry ,and was beside himself, needed rest.

 

[david_ruiz]

Wow, is all I can say! Let me tell you, I have been preparing for weeks to have this very conversation with my mother in law, who being from a strong Protestant background, had many questions regarding Mary. She just couldn’t understand why we pray to Mary when we can just go straight to Jesus. For me, I’m certainly not an expert, but I really tried my best…but the conversation unfortunately left more unanswered questions. I then come on here and came straight to your comments and there…there were the answers, worded perfectly. If I may ask you to emphasize on one point…and here’s the question as she has put it to me…“If Mary was sinless and perfect in heart, where did Jesus’ humanity come from?”. In other words, wouldn’t Jesus have to be part God part Man, receiving the man part from Mary, to have humanity? That’s the best way I can word it, I’m tired. Your opinion of this would be greatly appreciated.

Well God bless your mother ! Anyways, I feel the same way ,that elevating Mary above all human beings kind of puts a separation between us AND makes Jesus seem like He had an upbringing that I can not relate to. Really ,a “perfect” mom ? The bible says He was tempted in all ways as we are ,but I do not think so if mother was perfect. Jesus went to a lot of trouble to be born of a virgin, of lowly estate ,in a lowly place-Bethlehem, Nazareth,in a lowly fashion(in a manger), just to take on flesh, ordinary flesh (nothing comely about Him).He did not need a perfect mother , a sinless mother , a Queen. This is a perfect total distraction from the million dollar issue -The Incarnation… Mother ,what have you to do with me ?.. Whoever does the will of the Father is His mother -perfectly.

 

[Patavium]

I would guess around 60 AD . Luke probably got the story from Mary where she found favor with the Lord ,amongst all other women.and Paul who states all have sinned ,and the gospel that tells of Mary leaving Jesus behind for a whole day ,and the part where she went with Jesus brethren to bring Him back home cause they thought He was going too far in His ministry ,and was beside himself, needed rest.

David, are you telling me that the gospel explicitly says that Mary was conceived with sin or that it was conceived without sin? We can certainly agree that there is no EXPLICIT statement in the whole bible saying this.

However, if you look at the History you will see that Catholics for all years held to this belief, and also that the Reformers themselves also held to this belief. So tell me, Who was the one that opposed?, and you learned otherwise?.

Also just to point to you how different are the arguments of distinct protestants, did you know that your fellow protestant brother Steve (BornAgainRN) also believes that Mary had other children besides Jesus? Do you agree with this too?

However, most (all?) first generation Reformers did agree on the sinlessness of Mary.

 

[wheels10]

I respect the fact that you believe that Mary was sinless, but the point was that since this belief that Mary was sinless is based on the angel Gabriel saluting Mary by saying “Hail! Mary, full of grace!” [or 'Rejoice (or ‘Greetings!,’ Mary, you are favored!] in the Bible, when if ‘grace’ implies sinlessness, because Jesus was ‘full of grace’ & sinless, then why don’t you believe that Stephen was sinless too, since he was ‘full of grace,’ which uses the same Greek word for ‘grace’ as Jesus, but Mary’s word for ‘grace’ is different, which means ‘favored’? And Stephen was described of being ‘full of grace’ while he was alive.

I also respect that you ask Mary to pray for you, but Jesus tells us when we pray, to pray ‘this way’: “Our FATHER.” And, the writer of Hebrews gives us encouragement to “draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” It’s more encouraging for me to know that I go directly to God’s throne when I pray though Jesus, our High Priest, Intercessor, & ONLY Mediator between man & God, which is only possible, because Jesus is not only God in the presence of man, but also man in the presence of God.

I actually read your Greek translation, BTW, but with all due respect, I think you’re not quite understanding the meaning of the word grace, which means ‘unmerited, or unearned, FAVOR.’ Mary was ‘full of grace’ or ‘favored’ because out of all the women in Israel, God could have chosen, He picked Mary to fulfill Isaiah’s prophecy & bring our Lord miraculously into the world, proving that it wasn’t a normal human birth, but a Divine one!

God bless you too!

Luke 1:46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Can a sinful soul magnify the Lord? Can a sinful soul be called Blessed for all generations? Did Jesus honour Mary? Could Jesus honour a sinful soul?

 

[Patavium]

Luke 1:46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Can a sinful soul magnify the Lord? Can a sinful soul be called Blessed for all generations? Did Jesus honour Mary? Could Jesus honour a sinful soul?

By the way, my point with Stephen and Virgin Mary was the following

Note that Kecharitomene is formed from the root charitoo. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive pariticple. Kecharitomene translates to “having been” or “have already been”.

The perfect tense is greek is a past tense. The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action.

Note this last sentence I wrote before. Can you point to me in the bible the past action that led Stephen to be full of grace? ** Can you do this for Virgin Mary?**

To make my point clearer

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 6:1-10[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[david_ruiz]

However, most (all?) first generation Reformers did agree on the sinlessness of Mary.

Luther was crude with words, so shall I say dethroning the pope was enough. Dethroning the queen would have to be by others.

However, if you look at the History you will see that Catholics for all years held to this belief

What is “all years”, form Pentecost to today ? There is no proof this is so, not in the first hundred or two years.

Mary had other children ?

Yes, they did not use the word for cousin, but they were called “brethren”. Again, would a perfect mother forget there only child was missing for over a day ? Now the premise of the movie "Home Alone " never would have happened with an only child. Never ! (in my humble opinion)

 

[Patavium]

Luther was crude with words, so shall I say dethroning the pope was enough. Dethroning the queen would have to be by others.
What is “all years”, form Pentecost to today ? There is no proof this is so, not in the first hundred or two years. Yes, they did not use the word for cousin, but they were called “brethren”. Again, would a perfect mother forget there only child was missing for over a day ? Now the premise of the movie "Home Alone " never would have happened with an only child. Never ! (in my humble opinion)

Are you saying Luther is a liar? because he did offer support for the sinlessness of Virgin Mary. Support that is quoted in a page in this thread.

 

[Patavium]

What is “all years”, form Pentecost to today ? There is no proof this is so, not in the first hundred or two years.

There is proof from very early. Also quoted in his thread. Didn’t you see the quotes? Maybe you should go back and read them.

 

[Patavium]

David,

See here

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=664819&page=4

and

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=664819&page=12

 

[Gods_Peace]

My understanding of what you really believe has improved.

And I have moved in your general direction. I’ve left my Assemblies of God church for an Anglo-Catholic church (with Episcopal and Lutheran affiliations). I don’t really think of myself as Protestant, but merely Christian, and I don’t reject the description of “Catholic in the English style”. But I will not cross the Tiber; my differences with Rome on certain key issues (such as papal supremacy and infallibility) are irreconcilable.

I accept Mary as Mother of God, in the sense of theotokos, and I believe she deserves much respect as one of the greatest saints. However, I do not believe in the Immaculate Conception or Perpetual Virginity. And I don’t look to her, or to any of the other saints, to intercede for me. I still prefer to pray to the Father directly in the name of His Son.

And that is why your good works probably do not flourish, obviously, because Jesus loves his mother more then any body ever loved their own mother. And you’re wrong on two major things. The immaculate conception, and Mary’s perpetual virginity. Mary brought Jesus into this world, and she is constantly trying to bring us to him, she does this in everything.