Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary

[ReluctantRoad]

I just recently joined the Catholic Church from an evangelical background. Understanding Mary was one of the toughest obstacles to joining the Church.

 

[Ubenedictus]

not really, they werent ‘discussion’, Jerome was accusing helvidius of heresy, misinterpretation of scripture and unfaithfulness to God’s words.
Ubenedictus

big mistake, i meant ‘‘they werent having a discussion’’ sorry.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Hi, Ubenedictus,

One of the things I have found to be profoundly sad about the majority of Protestant argumentation is that even if the words clearly identify Catholic Doctrine (Real Presence, Sacrament of Penance, etc) there is still an argument because the Words must pass through each individual filter of private interpretation.

Another sad aspect is that Protestant have deliberately chosen to have this chaos becaue no one can authoratively interpret Scripture with the guarantee of no error - as Christ promised to His Church. There is no escape from the Protestant because no other authority besides Scripture (Sola Scriptura) is falsely recognized.

Now, a simply trip through Scripture revelas that Scripture makes no claim it is the Only Authority - or even less logically - that Scripture interprets intself. These are truly the traditions of men who have for almost 500 years continue to splinter further away from the the Truth. But the trip can not end with Scripture becase, in reality, in never really began there - it was the Catholic Church that gave us the Canon of Scripture and it is this same Church that has the unique Authority given by Christ, to clearly interpret what was said and what is meant. We are very blessed to be in the Catholic Church.

By the way, take a look at Post #604 for an update.

God bless

thanks for the update, i didnt even notice. Thanks again.
Ubenedictus

 

[kellerk]

I just recently joined the Catholic Church from an evangelical background. Understanding Mary was one of the toughest obstacles to joining the Church.

Read through this thread! It covers just about anything you can think to ask…

Welcome Home by the way May I ask, what brought you to the church?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Reluctant Road,

Welcome to CAF!

There are many aspects of the Catholic Faith that are simply beyond human understanding - praying for greater Faith is what St. Augustine did and gaining a greater understanding was a side effect… Here is a link you may enjoy: stclarehouston.org/faith-formation/adults

God bless

I just recently joined the Catholic Church from an evangelical background. Understanding Mary was one of the toughest obstacles to joining the Church.

 

[rinnie]

Hi, Rinnie,

The excellent post you have provided will NEVER BE ENOUGH because it flys in the face of Sola Scriptura and personal interpretation. This basic Protestant error is responsible for all of the chaos and splintering we find in the religious teachings of Protestantism today.

These Protestants have even portested their own founders - Luther and Calvin both had devotions to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Luther was quite clear in speaking out agains those who claimed Mary had other children. But what is being witnessed is on-going splintering because self and the knowledge one claims is placed at the center of this misguided belief - instead of the Chruch - the bulwark of the Truth.

God bless

It is ironic isn’t it.

I can remember a prayer my Dad always said, if you say this prayer the Blessed Mother will interceed in her prayers for you at the time of your death.

I am told that it was indeed Luther who called to our dear Mother at the time of his death, and asked for the intercession of our Holy Mother of God.

I pray that people who protest the teaching’s and truth of our Holy Mother can come to the fullness of the truth revealed about her, not to prove the Church right. But I want them to know the confort and love she can provide for us in this world also.

People forget that when Jesus left her at the foot of the Cross, he gave her to all of us.

There is NOTHING like the prayers of a MOTHER in this world. especially the true Mother of us all and of God.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rinnie,

I really do not have much hope for the other guys … but, because of Luther’s devotion to Mary, I do have some hope!

Here is a link you may enjoy: frtommylane.com/homilies/year_c/02.htm

God bless

It is ironic isn’t it.

I can remember a prayer my Dad always said, if you say this prayer the Blessed Mother will interceed in her prayers for you at the time of your death.

I am told that it was indeed Luther who called to our dear Mother at the time of his death, and asked for the intercession of our Holy Mother of God.

I pray that people who protest the teaching’s and truth of our Holy Mother can come to the fullness of the truth revealed about her, not to prove the Church right. But I want them to know the confort and love she can provide for us in this world also.

People forget that when Jesus left her at the foot of the Cross, he gave her to all of us.

There is NOTHING like the prayers of a MOTHER in this world. especially the true Mother of us all and of God.

 

[BrunoMaria]

Hi, Rinnie,

I really do not have much hope for the other guys … but, because of Luther’s devotion to Mary, I do have some hope!

Here is a link you may enjoy: frtommylane.com/homilies/year_c/02.htm

True, and this helps SOME (only some) Protestants. It did not help my protestant father. Luther after all was a Roman Catholic.
But in tis link’s site I didn’t find any statement as to Luther’s devotion to Holy Mary. Nor do I know why and how Protestants deny Holy Mary and got a completely wrong picture of Catholic’s absolute natural devotion to Holy Mary. But as I keep saying: How can we deny Holy Mary, as God honores her?! This is a direct affront against God.

Yours
Bruno

 

[kellerk]

I realize that there is proof that Mary was venerated all the way back to the 1st century but, can anyone tell me about the when and why when it comes to the actual rosary beads being used? I also realize I can easily look this up but, I would like to get the opinions and reasoning from my trusted friends here on CAF also!!! Thanks guys, you all are so awesome!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, BrunoMaria,

No doubt about it - Luther is a complex character … and there are a lot of surprises in his behavior (at least they surprised me ) His devotion to Mary is well documented. Here is a link: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=788

At a time when those who were revolting from the Catholic Chruch - and trying to tear anything and everything away - and challenging Marys Perpetual Virginity (related to Mark 6 where it says Christ has brothers and sisters) was just one of the many attacks launched against Christ’s Chruch - and Christ’s Mother. Luther stood tall and condemned those who challenged Mary! By the way, Calvin also had a devotion to Mary!

Make no mistake - Luther was really wrong in many of the things he did - but, it would be unjust to omit the things that he did that were right! I have no idea, however, why his later followers (and Calvin’s, too) chose to dismiss their founder’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

God bless

True, and this helps SOME (only some) Protestants. It did not help my protestant father. Luther after all was a Roman Catholic.
But in tis link’s site I didn’t find any statement as to Luther’s devotion to Holy Mary. Nor do I know why and how Protestants deny Holy Mary and got a completely wrong picture of Catholic’s absolute natural devotion to Holy Mary. But as I keep saying: How can we deny Holy Mary, as God honores her?! This is a direct affront against God.

Yours
Bruno

 

[BrunoMaria]

Make no mistake - Luther was really wrong in many of the things he did - but, it would be unjust to omit the things that he did that were right! I have no idea, however, why his later followers (and Calvin’s, too) chose to dismiss their founder’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Oh - I all my life knew that Luther made major mistakes as a Catholic. Even though he didn’t really want to split Jesus’ Church into two, which rather was a political desire and came very handy to kings and landlords who anyhow seeked a way to get off the Pope’s managerial prerogative. Now they made it a “religious” reason to get off it. The little monk Luther, (who reached his doctorate on dubious ways) rather was surprised as the outcome that now got under way up to wars and finally the 30-yers war 1618-48. Luther to was disgusted at the iconoclasm at Wittenberg 1522 (though caused by Luther’s criticism of donating art-works for the forgiving of sins). It was a iconoclasm that followed to draw sharp lines between Catholics and Protestants, and finally in the (widely peaceful) catholic Counterreformation, with it’s artistic peak in the 18th century’s baroque. Still, the iconoclasm reached it’s peak in Holland even in the 18th and 19th century, where all religious art-works where destroyed. There Protestantism actually was a trailblazer to wide spread atheism.
But Luther indeed made some indefensible major mistakes, such as his blasphemous view and teaching of the Eucharist, his calls upon nuns and monks to leave their monasteries, his marriage with such a runaway nun, his call for disobedience of the original Church and many more.

Yours
Bruno-Maria
Dad even convinced the Nazis, that I must have the additional name Maria (Mary), which at the time was forbidden - especially for boys. Dad argued and convinced those pit-bulls, that this additional name is obligatory to gain a big heritage. This dumbs of course thought of money - but day spoke of heavenly heritage. It still was only allowed at the end of all names, which go correctly such:
Bruno Wolfgang Günther Maria Schulz

 

[BrunoMaria]

sorry - spelling mistace above. I wrote:
This dumbs of course thought of money - but day spoke of heavenly heritage.
it must of course be:
This dumbs of course thought of money - but Dad spoke of heavenly heritage.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, BrunoMaria,

Thank you for sharing that historical item on iconoclasm - I knew it existed in Europe, but did not the source. Here is a link you may find of interest: newadvent.org/cathen/07620a.htm

God bless

Oh - I all my life knew that Luther made major mistakes as a Catholic. Even though he didn’t really want to split Jesus’ Church into two, which rather was a political desire and came very handy to kings and landlords who anyhow seeked a way to get off the Pope’s managerial prerogative. Now they made it a “religious” reason to get off it. The little monk Luther, (who reached his doctorate on dubious ways) rather was surprised as the outcome that now got under way up to wars and finally the 30-yers war 1618-48. Luther to was disgusted at the iconoclasm at Wittenberg 1522 (though caused by Luther’s criticism of donating art-works for the forgiving of sins). It was a iconoclasm that followed to draw sharp lines between Catholics and Protestants, and finally in the (widely peaceful) catholic Counterreformation, with it’s artistic peak in the 18th century’s baroque. Still, the iconoclasm reached it’s peak in Holland even in the 18th and 19th century, where all religious art-works where destroyed. There Protestantism actually was a trailblazer to wide spread atheism.
But Luther indeed made some indefensible major mistakes, such as his blasphemous view and teaching of the Eucharist, his calls upon nuns and monks to leave their monasteries, his marriage with such a runaway nun, his call for disobedience of the original Church and many more.

Yours
Bruno-Maria
Dad even convinced the Nazis, that I must have the additional name Maria (Mary), which at the time was forbidden - especially for boys. Dad argued and convinced those pit-bulls, that this additional name is obligatory to gain a big heritage. This dumbs of course thought of money - but day spoke of heavenly heritage. It still was only allowed at the end of all names, which go correctly such:
Bruno Wolfgang Günther Maria Schulz

 

[rinnie]

Here are a couple of few good pointers here to the ark of the covenant.

David acknowledges his unworthiness with the words How can the ark of the Lord come to me.

Now Elizabeth says why is it granted that the MOTHER of the Lord shall come to me. Funny how the word ARK is replaced by MOTHER!

Remember how David DANCED for JOY in the presence of the Ark! How about how the Child LEADPED with joy in the womb of Elizabeth as the Blessed Mother apporached.

How about how the ARK remained in the hill country for 3 months. The Blessed Mother stayed with Elizabeth for 3 months.

 

[rinnie]

And again lets not forget the words of St Augustine the woman of Apocayspe signifies Mary who being SPOTLESS brough forthe our SPOTLESS HEAD!!

Spotless means without sin. It goes back to the question all must answer in their own minds, How can the Blessed Mother be spotless Blessed Among Women and have sin. She can’t!

 

[Lost_and_Found_1]

The last verse in Revelation says, "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. The first verse in Revelations 12 says, “Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman, robed with the sun, standing on the moon, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” But when John wrote this there were no Chapters so he’s definitely describing Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, BrunoMaria,



God bless

sorry - spelling mistace above. I wrote:
This dumbs of course thought of money - but day spoke of heavenly heritage.
it must of course be:
This dumbs of course thought of money - but Dad spoke of heavenly heritage.

 

[BrunoMaria]

Hi, BrunoMaria,

Thank you for sharing that historical item on iconoclasm - I knew it existed in Europe, but did not the source. Here is a link you may find of interest: newadvent.org/cathen/07620a.htm

God bless

I’m so much surprised that the treadful iconoclasm after the protestant reformation is not mentioned in this otherwise most interesting article, but is here only referring to old historic events, most of us had forgotten. Though namely here in Europe in our present time, the latest iconoclasm is actually far more important and very present in the minds of people. For then, in this actually “very recent” events in central Europe, the world lost countless irreplaceable artifacts of highest value, and left us the typical bald Protestant Churches - and led to the Counterreformation.
The topic of this thread is directly touched by that iconoclasm, for it party was caused by the rejection of Holy Mary. Ever more so, since the Catholics in the 30-years war 1618-48 under Wallenstein, had holy Mary on their flags and ensigns, which infuriated the Protestants under the Swedish King Gustav Adolf. (WHich of course is a very rough outline of the in fact terribly complicated coherences of that 30-years war of the two denominations against each other).

Yours
Bruno

 

[rinnie]

The last verse in Revelation says, "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. The first verse in Revelations 12 says, “Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman, robed with the sun, standing on the moon, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.” But when John wrote this there were no Chapters so he’s definitely describing Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant.

This is exactly true. It is also proof that the Blessed Mother was sinless because it proves she has gone to heaven BODY and SOUL.

If she had sin her body would not have been in heaven, her body would have been left behind like all of the Apostles. But not only do we have scripture, we have no bones left behind, but we do have bones left behind of the Apostles.

 

[jlhargus]

JL: Of course Mary needed a savior and her savior, Jesus, PRESERVED, sactified Mary from sin at conception. Her soul was indwelled by the Holy Spirit from conception. Just as John the Baptist was indwelled by the Holy Spirit in his mother’s womb and BORN without sin.

[Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, even FROM HIS MOTHER’S WOMB.]

Lk1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elizabeth HEARD THE SALUTATION OF MARY, THE BABE LEAPED IN HER WOMB; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: [The same God who filled and sanctified John the Baptist in the womb filled and sanctified Mary at conception, with God nothing is impossible.

JL: No the bible DOES NOT say Joseph knew Mary after she gave birth to our Lord and Savior. The bible confirms only that Joseph did not know Mary BEFORE she brought forth her Son. Till means here, that some action did not happen up to a certain point, it does not mean the action did happen later.

[1 COR 15:25 For he must reign **TILL

he hath put all enemies under his feet] Is Christ only to reign till all enemies are under His feet? I thought His kingdom would have no end.

[1 TIM 4:13 **TILL I come give attendance to reading to exhortation to doctrine] Is Timothy to stop reading scripture, to exhortation, to doctrine after Paul arrives?

Mary perpetual virgin;

[Ezek 44:1 Then THE MAN BROUGHT ME BACK TO THE OUTER GATE of the sanctuary, THE ONE FACING EAST, and IT WAS SHUT. 2 **THE LORD SAID to me, THIS GATE IS TO REMAIN SHUT. IT MUST NOT BE OPENED; NO ONE MAY ENTER THROUTH IT. It is to remain shut BECAUSE THE LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAS ENTERED THROUGH IT.

This gate, Mary, is to remain shut. It must NOT BE OPENED, NO ONE may enter THROUGH IT. She is to remain ever virgin, NO ONE, no other children are to enter through it. Because The Lord God, Jesus, has entered through that gate.

NBRS 30:3 “WHEN A YOUNG WOMAN still living in her father’s house MAKES A VOW TO THE LORD or obligates herself by a pledge 4 AND HER FATHER HEARS about her vow or pledge BUT SAYS NOTHING TO HER, then all HER VOWS and every pledge by which she obligated herself WILL STAND. 5 But if her father forbids her when he hears about it, none of her vows or the pledges by which she obligated herself will stand; the LORD will release her because her father has forbidden her. 6 "IF SHE MARRIES AFTER SHE MAKES A VOW or after her lips utter a rash promise by which she obligates herself 7 AND HER HUSBAND HEARS about it BUT SAYS NOTHING to her, THEN HER VOWS or the pledges by which she obligated herself WILL STAND. 8 But if her husband forbids her when he hears about it, he nullifies the vow that obligates her or the rash promise by which she obligates herself, and the LORD will release her.

[Lk1:30 And THE ANGEL SAID unto her FEAR NOT MARY for thou hast found favour with God 31 And behold THOU SHALT CONCEIVE in thy womb AND BRING FORTH A SON and shalt CALL HIS NAME JESUS 32 He shall be great and shall be called THE SON OF THE HIGHEST and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever and of his kingdom there shall be no end 34 THEN SAID MARY unto the angel HOW SHALL THIS BE SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God] Unless Mary had taken a vow of virginity, as early Church Fathers believed, why would she a betrothed woman ask, “HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN? Wouldn’t conceiving be the most natural and desired thing for a betrothed to expect, especially a Jewish woman in that time?

[The Lord God has entered through Mary the gate and no one else is to enter thru that gate. Just as no one was to enter into the OT Ark of the Covenant. So no one is to enter Mary the Ark of the NT. The fathers called Mary the gate of heaven and the ark of the covenant.

Hb9:4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ARK CONTAINED the gold jar of MANNA, AARON’S STAFF that had budded, and the stone TABLETS OF THE COVENANT.

Mary the living ark, not made by hands, would contain, in her womb. The real living Word of God, CHRIST. The real living Bread of Life, CHRIST, and the real living High Priest, CHRIST. Not just symbols as the ark, made by hands, contained but the actual realities. As our Lord says in Ex25:22 THERE, ABOVE THE COVER BETWEEN THE TWO CHERUBIM THAT ARE OVER THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY, I WILL MEET WITH YOU AND GIVE YOU ALL MY COMMANDS FOR THE ISRAELITES.

2 MCABS 2:5 And when Jeremy came thither he found an hollow cave wherein he laid the tabernacle and the ark and the altar of incense and so stopped the door 6 And some of those that followed him came to mark the way but they could not find it 7 Which when Jeremy perceived he blamed them saying As for THAT PLACE IT SHALL BE UNKNOWN UNTILL THE TIME THAT GOD GATHER HIS PEOPLE again TOGETHER AND RECEIVE THEM UNTO MERCY. 8 THEN SHALL THE LORD SHEW THEM THESE THINGS AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL APPEAR AND THE CLOUD ALSO as it was shewed under Moses and as when Solomon desired that the place might be honourably sanctified

EX 40:34 Then** a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle

LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her** The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee** therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

2 SAM 6:2 And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims

LK 1:39 **And Mary arose **in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste **into a city of Juda **

2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid **of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary **for thou hast found favour with God

2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

LK 1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart

LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears** the babe leaped in my womb for joy **

2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings** he blessed the people in the name of the LORD** of hosts

LK 1:45 And** blessed is she that believed **for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord

2 SAM 6:11 And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household

LK 1:56 **And Mary abode with her about three months **and returned to her own house

[Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from **henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me GREAT THINGS; and holy is his name.] What are some of those GREAT thingS God has done to Mary?

Psalm69 :8,9 “I am become a stranger to my brethren ,and an alien unto my mother’s children. For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up,and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are upon me”… The gospels refernce this to jesus .It is quite succint.Beautiful double meaning to many. Remember His “brethren” did not believe Him till after the resurrection.

JL: I don’t know what your point is, but I agree, Ps69:8-9 references Jesus. His mother, Israel, is symbolic as is His brethren who are the children of Israel His mother. Yes it is true SOME of His brethren (kin) didn’t believe at first.