Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary

[Patavium]

Thank-you for your well thought answers.Yes, they are revealing as to our fundamental differences-on salvation ,justification, sanctification and the biggy- grace and works. I do like it when you can get into the shoes of the opposing views, when you can articulate their own beliefs correctly while disagreeing with them. Unfortunately, ,for you came close, you have not done that. However, you have laid a good foundation for discussion on these matters to perhaps correct that situation. Indeed, Marian differences are symptomatic of these bigger fundamental differences-on just what Christianity is , on just what a Christian is.

I hope that I was able to articulate the Protestant views. I have studied them, but I must admit not to the depth of the Catholic views.

God Bless David.

Good discussion. Perhaps, we can move out of the Marian doctrine, and start a new thread on Salvation?.

 

[david_ruiz]

God is the Savior
God created humans
Humans can’t save themselves
Mary is human
God created Mary sinless
Therefore, Mary needed the Savior

The “therefore” doesn’t make sense.

Here’s an interesting one to you

If pain in childbirth is a result of sin (Genesis 3:16), What can we conclude of Mary?

It is strange that you insist perfection can not come from imperfection, or co-exist with it. Hence Mary must be perfect also to coexist and deliver “perfection”(Jesus). Yet how could Mary’s mother coexist with and deliver a “perfect” Mary ? Mary’s mother was imperfect , yet she delivered a “perfect” baby (Mary) according to IC. How could a loving God allow the future mother of God to be developed in a sinful mother ? So why not just have an imperfect Mary deliver a perfect Jesus, and call it the Incarnation ? If God insulated Mary from “contamination” from being formed in a sinful womb, why couldn’t God just as easily insulated Jesus from contamination while being formed in a sinful womb ?

 

[david_ruiz]

I hope that I was able to articulate the Protestant views. I have studied them, but I must admit not to the depth of the Catholic views.

God Bless David.

Good discussion. Perhaps, we can move out of the Marian doctrine, and start a new thread on Salvation?.

Perhaps .No, I would still like to answer your points one by one but not tonight thanks.They are deserving of good response.

 

[Catya]

Wow. Thanks. Favourited.

 

[Catya]

I am Catholic and have never had any problems believing in the teachings of Our Blessed Mother. This video opened my eyes to Mary in Scripture and I have shared it with many of my Protestant brothers and sisters and they told me it opened their eyes to understanding Mary and her role in salvation. Thought I would share for those who haven’t seen it…

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

Wow. Thanks. Added to Favourites.

 

[kellerk]

God does honor a broken and contrite heart. As one prays anything God sees that level of brokenness .I remember as a youngster praying especially fervent when it came to “pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen” I knew I was a sinner. I knew I had failed in the past ,and didn’t trust myself not to stray in the future, but as long as I got back on track and died in grace (no unconfessed mortal sin) I’d be O.K.-go to heaven, not hell. Well, I did stray, big time. But Jesus pursued me, and as I sensed His saving presence , I thought back to my fervency in that part of the Hail Mary. He had not forgotten me. He was and is faithful. He put me in a state where I know and believe in my eternal destiny for sure. No more fretting if I am in “grace” or confessed. Believing more in His saving, holding grace than in my frailties.

Also, beautifully stated! Just to make clear though, that is not why I pray the Rosary. I too have reached a point where I am reassured the Lord is with me in all that I do, and thankful beyond words. But, I would not go so far as to say I am not in danger of falling from grace or that my destiny is written in stone! The Bible warns us to be on gaurd lest we fail to meet the conditions for remaining faithful. But, rather than rely on verses from scripture, this is an attemp to reach you on a more personal/spiritual level regarding “the Rosary”, or “Praying to Mary” as so many put it. I do not pray to Mary because I think it assures my salvation, or that if I don’t pray it 10 times, I lose my grace somehow. I pray the Rosary because the Holy Spirit has lead me to. Because I want to, not because I feel I have to or that I should. I believe asking for intercessions is biblically supported and encouraged. I do believe that meditating on the Mysteries of the Rosary does shew forth grace upon us, and helps us to better imitate what those mysteries contain and to obtain what they promise, ALL in the name of, and through the same Christ our Lord. The Rosary has done nothing but brought me to a closer understanding of the awesome Mysteries of God. It is not the only prayer I pray, it is not the only way I pray, there are many ways and many reasons. I’m am thankful for our Mother that Jesus gave to us on the cross. I’m thankful for ALL the graces He has afforded me. It is but a comfort to know that my Mother is praying for me and my loved ones, along with our Lord, and all the saints and angels (I’ll take all the prayers I can get!)…praying together as a family towards the salvations for all, so that we may become worthy of the promises of Christ. This is the reason for coming to her defense so ferverently, she is part of our family. The Holy Family. She is not insignificant!

I do however believe, that by spending so much effort in defending her, proves the point that it can become a distraction. So, I will end this with one last attempt at the most simple explaination I can think of, even though I cannot understand why it’s so suspect in the first place, for a prayer to Mary.

“The family that prays together, stays together!”

If that does not sum it up in a nutshell, then I don’t know what else can be said.

Let me also remind you, in one of our first conversations, you implied that I believed what I was saying, “because that’s what I was taught”. Could that not also apply to you in your objections to the Rosary? Just because it is not for you, does not neccesarily mean it is wrong to do. Actually, I was never taught the Rosary in my years of catholic school. It never crossed my mind to until the Holy Spirit drew me to it. Not a priest, not a church nor any friend had made any suggestion of it. It was just me and the Holy Spirit. So I will say, the Holy Spirit taught me to pray the Rosary. The Holy Spirit is what has lead me here, to this forum!

And, let me also add, I am so honored to be a part of such an intellectual group, I have learned so much from you all. I feel as if I’m ready for a degree in Theology after hanging with you guys for a couple weeks!!..continue on…

 

[rinnie]

The “therefore” doesn’t make sense.

It is strange that you insist perfection can not come from imperfection, or co-exist with it. Hence Mary must be perfect also to coexist and deliver “perfection”(Jesus). Yet how could Mary’s mother coexist with and deliver a “perfect” Mary ? Mary’s mother was imperfect , yet she delivered a “perfect” baby (Mary) according to IC. How could a loving God allow the future mother of God to be developed in a sinful mother ? So why not just have an imperfect Mary deliver a perfect Jesus, and call it the Incarnation ? If God insulated Mary from “contamination” from being formed in a sinful womb, why couldn’t God just as easily insulated Jesus from contamination while being formed in a sinful womb ?

And why did God make the sky blue instead of purple:shrug:

Why do you feel it strange for us to insist perfection cannot come from imperfection, Because it cannot.

The fact of the matter is this, Like it or not. Either Mary was saved from Original sin from the moment of her conception as the Church teaches, or she had original sin as we are all born with and Jesus was touched by it.

You cannot have 2 truths. There is only ONE truth in this world never 2.

So now you have 2 things to think about. The RCC is either correct and Mother Mary was made perfect by God and saved from Original Sin, and was made completly sinless by God and gave birth to the spotless lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Or Mother Mary had sin, and passed that sin onto the Lamb of God and the Lamb of God is not spotless. So never took away our sins.

You have to come to a point in your life that you have to accept the truth. Because the truth is just that the truth.

Mary was saved from sin by the merit of her Son who came into this world to suffer for our sins.If you cannot believe Mary was free from sin, and insist she had sin, then you must lay that sin upon her son also. You have to come to a time in life you have to accept the truth.

You cannot say Mary had original sin, and did not pass it onto her Son. If so please show some teaching. You cannot

The RCC can show the teaching, It has been S.T. from the beginning.

 

[david_ruiz]

And why did God make the sky blue instead of purple:shrug:

Why do you feel it strange for us to insist perfection cannot come from imperfection, Because it cannot.

The fact of the matter is this, Like it or not. Either Mary was saved from Original sin from the moment of her conception as the Church teaches, or she had original sin as we are all born with and Jesus was touched by it.

You cannot have 2 truths. There is only ONE truth in this world never 2.

So now you have 2 things to think about. The RCC is either correct and Mother Mary was made perfect by God and saved from Original Sin, and was made completly sinless by God and gave birth to the spotless lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Or Mother Mary had sin, and passed that sin onto the Lamb of God and the Lamb of God is not spotless. So never took away our sins.

You have to come to a point in your life that you have to accept the truth. Because the truth is just that the truth.

Mary was saved from sin by the merit of her Son who came into this world to suffer for our sins.If you cannot believe Mary was free from sin, and insist she had sin, then you must lay that sin upon her son also. You have to come to a time in life you have to accept the truth.

You cannot say Mary had original sin, and did not pass it onto her Son. If so please show some teaching. You cannot

The RCC can show the teaching, It has been S.T. from the beginning.

Quickly , you have not answered how Mary was NOT touched by the original sin of her mother ?

 

[kellerk]

Quickly , you have not answered how Mary was NOT touched by the original sin of her mother ?

Great question! May I suggest a book, that in my opinion can explain the answer to this question in great detail…it’s called “Anna, Grandmother of Jesus.” A Message of Wisdom and Love. By Claire Heartsong. It is a wonderful book and really takes you to a perspective not often looked at by many and will definately get you thinking.

 

[rinnie]

Quickly , you have not answered how Mary was NOT touched by the original sin of her mother ?

I told you earlier david Mary was saved from original sin at the MOMENT of her conception.

Look at it this way.

Say you were walking out on a street corner and go to step out in front of a car. Right at the moment you step out to be hit by a car someone reaches out and saves you before you can be killed by the car. Were you hit by the car? Or saved a second before you could die.

That is how it happend with the Blessed Mother at the second of her conception before she could be touched by any original sin God reached out and got between her and original sin. At the moment of her conception, of her being.

Back to something else you said. Original sin. Please go back to the beginning of the bible. Read how Eve sinned and God told her and Adam they now have sin, and will now die. They no longer will live forever in the garden of eden.

Of course Abraham had original sin, He did experience death, did he not? Was he not buried and held with the souls waiting to be released?

The Bllessed Mother fell asleep in Christ and was taken up to heaven, She was never left for her body to be buried. She was taken straight up to heaven. She expericence no death or distruction of her body or soul because she was made perfect by Christ without sin.

 

[kellerk]

Some say Adam and Eve had this glow that clothed them until they "fell’ and saw themselves naked for the first time. Mary did not have this glorious “countenance” while alive on earth, as did Eve, so I am not sure how Mary was a better Eve in that regard.

Neither did Jesus walk about with this mysterious glow…from His birth to before His transfiguration.

 

[kellerk]

My bible says , “For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden” LOW ESTATE ! Being perfect is NOT low estate .Being sinless is not low estate Being the new Eve , better than the first, is not low estate. Blessed are the poor in spirit. She was poor in spirit .Jesus chose her, and chose not just a handmaiden of low estate, but chose to be born in a manger, and grow in inconsequential Nazareth, and put on flesh with no comeliness.

“Mary scarcely appears in the first coming of Jesus Christ. Because she kept herself hidden in this world and in her great humility, she considered herself lower than dust. But in the second coming of Jesus Christ, Mary must be known and openly revealed by the Holy Spirit so that Jesus may be known, loved and served through her. The reasons which moved the Holy Spirit to hide his spouse during her life and reveal but little of her since the first preaching of the gospel exist no longer. God wishes therefore to reveal Mary, His masterpiece, and make her more known in these latter times.”
…St. Louis de Montfort

 

[david_ruiz]

That is how it happend with the Blessed Mother at the second of her conception before she could be touched by any original sin God reached out and got between her and original sin. At the moment of her conception, of her being.

Agree, that that is the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception , that I disagree with. So “perfection” was not harmed though being carried by imperfection. Perfection came out of imperfection. Perfect holiness resided in fallen flesh. You said, “Why do you feel it strange for us to insist perfection cannot come from imperfection, Because it cannot.” But it did . The only one who had an Immaculate Conception was Jesus .He at the moment of conception was perfect, in an imperfect, fallen, Jewish, justified mother. The notion that holiness can not coexist with fallen flesh is negated by Mary’s own circumsatnce,according to IC.

Back to something else you said. Original sin. Please go back to the beginning of thWhy do you feel it strange for us to insist perfection cannot come from imperfection, Because it cannot.
e bible. Read how Eve sinned and God told her and Adam they now have sin, and will now die. They no longer will live forever in the garden of eden.

Agree

Of course Abraham had original sin, He did experience death, did he not? Was he not buried and held with the souls waiting to be released?

Agree.

The Bllessed Mother fell asleep in Christ and was taken up to heaven, She was never left for her body to be buried. She was taken straight up to heaven. She expericence no death or distruction of her body or soul because she was made perfect by Christ without sin

St Jerome- “Of her end no one knows”.

 

[david_ruiz]

Neither did Jesus walk about with this mysterious glow…from His birth to before His transfiguration.

Good point .I have said flesh is flesh before. I was told no, like there is good flesh and bad flesh(immaculitized flesh and un-immaculitized).like Jesus is fussy about flesh, but as you point out , he had ordinary flesh ,and I say He could easily inhabit ordinary flesh of Mary’s womb.

 

[david_ruiz]

Great question! May I suggest a book, that in my opinion can explain the answer to this question in great detail…it’s called “Anna, Grandmother of Jesus.” A Message of Wisdom and Love. By Claire Heartsong. It is a wonderful book and really takes you to a perspective not often looked at by many and will definately get you thinking.

Could you give me a briefing on it, otherwise I doubt I’ll be able to get to it.Thanks.

 

[kellerk]

Good point .I have said flesh is flesh before. I was told no, like there is good flesh and bad flesh(immaculitized flesh and un-immaculitized).like Jesus is fussy about flesh, but as you point out , he had ordinary flesh ,and I say He could easily inhabit ordinary flesh of Mary’s womb.

Yes, but your point in this specific quote was to compare Mary to Eve stating that it has been said that Adam and Eve walked about with this “glowing countance” before their fall and so why did Mary not have this same “countance” as Eve being born without sin. To which I would say, apparently you don’t have to glow, to be born without sin, unless you think Jesus was glowing throughout His time here.

I’d rather not focus on this issue though as it seems to just take us back around in circles. I’d much rather focus on the more interesting question of Anna, the Grandmother of Jesus!!

 

[kellerk]

Could you give me a briefing on it, otherwise I doubt I’ll be able to get to it.Thanks.

I’ll do my best, it has been a while since I’ve read it myself. I really do recommend you check it out, it is THE most interesting take on the story of Jesus I think I have ever read, besides the actual biblical accounts of course. And, you will find there are some pretty controversial views that you may not agree with (I myself had a hard time digesting some of it) but will definately stir up the conversation, for sure. Cellular Rejuventation is probably the best way to briefly sum up the books theory. It fills in the missing pieces of history, the role of the Essene community, makes reference to challenging and demanding initiations required of Anna, Mary, Jesus and the disciples to complete the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension. Although, I would not claim this book is based completely on scripture alone, it does hold true to the biblical accounts including the OT and other historical accounts from the earliest christians and from the Dead Sea Scrolls. This book beautifully pieces together what questions you may have of the grandmother of Jesus and her bloodline. I actually found it very difficult to grasp at first, but I stuck with it and is now probably one of my top ten reads. I hope you get a chance to check it out, it would make for some very interesting conversation to say the least.

 

[Ubenedictus]

Agree, that that is the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception , that I disagree with. So “perfection” was not harmed though being carried by imperfection. Perfection came out of imperfection. Perfect holiness resided in fallen flesh. You said, “Why do you feel it strange for us to insist perfection cannot come from imperfection, Because it cannot.” But it did . The only one who had an Immaculate Conception was Jesus .He at the moment of conception was perfect, in an imperfect, fallen, Jewish, justified mother. The notion that holiness can not coexist with fallen flesh is negated by Mary’s own

(emphasis mine) when was she justified? That is the question.

 

[Ubenedictus]

Gal44- …God sent forth His son, made of a woman, made under the law" .Thank you.She was quite Jewish. So much for “woman” signifying " perfect woman before the fall. later to be called Eve. Mary is claimed to be superior to Eve on threads here .yet Galatians reminds us that she was “under the law”, not above the law ,nor fulfilling the law or outside it, which is suggested by IC doctrine in my opinion. Thank-you BARN. Blessings also.

made under the law was refering to christ, you seem to be jamming the bible passages.
Ubenedictus

 

[Patavium]

(emphasis mine) when was she justified? That is the question.

Yes given that the Justification of Protestants require Jesus Christ to die at the Cross, and He did not die yet.

In addition, stop for a minute, and meditate on God was in Mary’s womb for some months (presumably nine). She was pregnant with Jesus. Are you going to tell me God’s grace didn’t irradiate? that she wasn’t moved by the Angel that greeted her? or from having GOD in her womb?. This is a strong argument by itself.