Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary

[Ubenedictus]

Yes, God is Holy. Yes, he wanted us to know this .Yes, we are sinners, and He wants us to know this .Yes, there is a meeting ground , and it is Holy. It is the place of Salvation. No man has seen Him face to face .Moses came close,but anymore would have killed him .So what did God do ,He clothed Himself in humanity .Now He could touch and heal us .He was clothed in humanity in Mary’s womb. She did not need to be perfect , except by faith ,and of low estate. She was "found "amongst women, Judaic women, in the line of David. She was not “made”(immaculate) in terms outside of Judaism, even Christianity…Again Jesus was clothed in humanity, ready and able to inhabit a human womb.

where did you get ‘‘found’ among women’ 'wasnt made in terms outside judiasm? Pleas clarify.
Ubenedictus

 

[david_ruiz]

(emphasis mine) when was she justified? That is the question.

When are any of us justified ? It is apparent it was before the Annunciation. For sure when she reached the age of reasoning , and heard the “Word” and believed and hence could be found as such by the Lord some time later leading to the visitation.

 

[david_ruiz]

where did you get ‘‘found’ among women’ 'wasnt made in terms outside judiasm? Pleas clarify.
Ubenedictus

Meant she was" blessed amongst women" and" found favor with the Lord"

 

[david_ruiz]

made under the law was refering to christ, you seem to be jamming the bible passages.
Ubenedictus

No,i think that is the passage. Yes refers to Christ AND Mary

 

[rinnie]

Agree, that that is the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception , that I disagree with. So “perfection” was not harmed though being carried by imperfection. Perfection came out of imperfection. Perfect holiness resided in fallen flesh. You said, “Why do you feel it strange for us to insist perfection cannot come from imperfection, Because it cannot.” But it did . The only one who had an Immaculate Conception was Jesus .He at the moment of conception was perfect, in an imperfect, fallen, Jewish, justified mother. The notion that holiness can not coexist with fallen flesh is negated by Mary’s own circumsatnce,according to IC.
AgreeAgree.St Jerome- “Of her end no one knows”.

I am in total disagreement with you and so is the Church.

And Jesus was not made perfect at the moment of his conception. Where are you getting these crazy teachings?

You need to be informed that Jesus is God the Almighty creator of heaven and earth. Jesus was not made perfect from the beginning of his conception by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus told you himself before Abraham I AM. Jesus is God. He was not made perfect by himself. I have no idea where you continue to get these teachings.

It is time David that you begin to show sources. You need to show proof of these wild teachings you are comming up with. Please show them.

I can back up my teaching check it out by the RCC. The Immaculate Conception: In anticipation that she would bear the Son of God Mary was preserved from her conception from any stain of Original sin. No taint of sin would touch her so that she would be a fitting and worthy vessel of the incarnation.

I have no idea where you are getting your teaching or what you are talking about.

Ineffabilis Deus (you should really check it out before you continue to teach false statements,)

 

[david_ruiz]

Or Mother Mary had sin, and passed that sin onto the Lamb of God and the Lamb of God is not spotless. So never took away our sins.

If Mary could be protected from her mothers sin, Jesus could be protected from Mary’s sin.One can not escape this quagmire…If you wanna say the IC simply was, ok ,but not because it had to be for any reason, especially this “contamination/sin/holiness/vessel issue”.

If you cannot believe Mary was free from sin, and insist she had sin, then you must lay that sin upon her son also

Again,nope. Mary’s mother had sin and it did NOT taint Mary according to IC . Jesus therefore could be protected from Mary’s sin, as Mary was protected from her mothers sin.

You have to come to a time in life you have to accept the truth.

Ditto ?

 

[rinnie]

Agree, that that is the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception , that I disagree with. So “perfection” was not harmed though being carried by imperfection. Perfection came out of imperfection. Perfect holiness resided in fallen flesh. You said, “Why do you feel it strange for us to insist perfection cannot come from imperfection, Because it cannot.” But it did . The only one who had an Immaculate Conception was Jesus .He at the moment of conception was perfect, in an imperfect, fallen, Jewish, justified mother. The notion that holiness can not coexist with fallen flesh is negated by Mary’s own circumsatnce,according to IC.
AgreeAgree.St Jerome- “Of her end no one knows”.

St Thomas saw the assumption of the Virgin Mary. And rather or not she was dead or asleep is not known, but the Church allows it to be said she had fallen asleep in Christ.

You also continue to insist that Mary was not Holy yet the bible itself contradicts you.

 

[rinnie]

Good point .I have said flesh is flesh before. I was told no, like there is good flesh and bad flesh(immaculitized flesh and un-immaculitized).like Jesus is fussy about flesh, but as you point out , he had ordinary flesh ,and I say He could easily inhabit ordinary flesh of Mary’s womb.

Huh?

 

[david_ruiz]

QUOTE=rinnie;9403287]I am in total disagreement with you and so is the Church.

And Jesus was not made perfect at the moment of his conception. Where are you getting these crazy teachings?

“The only one who had an Immaculate Conception was Jesus” . I am saying Jesus was born spotless. Sorry you misunderstood my applying immaculate conception to Jesus and or perhaps what that term means per my statement.

 

[rinnie]

If Mary could be protected from her mothers sin, Jesus could be protected from Mary’s sin.One can not escape this quagmire…If you wanna say the IC simply was, ok ,but not because it had to be for any reason, especially this “contamination/sin/holiness/vessel issue”. Again,nope. Mary’s mother had sin and it did NOT taint Mary according to IC . Jesus therefore could be protected from Mary’s sin, as Mary was protected from her mothers sin. Ditto ?]

You continue to say that if Mary could be protected from her Mothers sin, then Jesus could be protected from Mary’s sin,

But I could go to sleep now or I could go to work. But guess what God could have chosen any way in the world to take away our sins also. But what does could of have to do with what facts of what did indeed happen.

So then if someone tells you No Jesus did not pay for our sins on the cross, because God could have just forgotten them, makes WHAT the cross false also.

David where are you comming from, and what are you talking about.

I am giving you true Catholic teaching, Please submit your sources.

 

[rinnie]

“The only one who had an Immaculate Conception was Jesus” . I am saying Jesus was born spotless. Sorry you misunderstood my applying immaculate conception to Jesus and what that term means.

Oh I understand what you are saying quite clear. And the immaculate conception is not defined as the birth of Jesus. The I.C. when Mary is preserved from the stain of Original sin by God.

David where are you getting these teachings? Does your Church teach this

 

[rinnie]

“The only one who had an Immaculate Conception was Jesus” . I am saying Jesus was born spotless. Sorry you misunderstood my applying immaculate conception to Jesus and what that term means.

How was Jesus born spotless if he had to inherit Original Sin from his Mother, Because according to you she was not saved from it by God at the moment of her conception, so she had to have had it.

So if she had it, Jesus had it also.

You say Jesus was saved from it? When? Where is the teaching? The Church teaches Jesus was God the 2nd person of the Trinity and never had any sin to be saved from.

 

[rinnie]

“The only one who had an Immaculate Conception was Jesus” . I am saying Jesus was born spotless. Sorry you misunderstood my applying immaculate conception to Jesus and or perhaps what that term means per my statement.

Again david before I leave.

The Apostolic Constitution of Pius XII Munificentissimus Deus teaches she was preserved free from all stain of Original sin when the course of her earthly life was finished she was taken up BODY and SOUL into heavenly glory and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things.

So I believe in the Apostolic teachings. I can see you refuse to accept them. I do not know why? I believe you should not pick and choose what you want to believe and what you want to disbelieve. But thats just my opinion.

I have showed you all sources. Please not be fair and show you sources. Fair is fair

 

[david_ruiz]

Oh I understand what you are saying quite clear. And the immaculate conception is not defined as the birth of Jesus. The I.C. when Mary is preserved from the stain of Original sin by God.

David where are you getting these teachings? Does your Church teach this

You misquoted my last sentence, it lacks “or” and “per my statement”. Without them you make it seem like I am implying you do not your IC doctrine which I am not. Sorry.

 

[david_ruiz]

How was Jesus born spotless if he had to inherit Original Sin from his Mother, Because according to you she was not saved from it by God at the moment of her conception, so she had to have had it.

So if she had it, Jesus had it also.

You say Jesus was saved from it? When? Where is the teaching? The Church teaches Jesus was God the 2nd person of the Trinity and never had any sin to be saved from.

I am applying the generic meaning of immaculate conception, meaning only one thing and one thing only ,Jesus was sinless. He was sinless at conception, birth, early life -midlife, to the end ,when He took on our sins, upon himself. He was in a sinful world (and I say humbly in a “fallen” Mary), yet was not tainted but prevailed.

 

[peace2u2]

pablope.

I don’t mind your asking.

I haven’t prayed the Rosary; but I have asked for Mary’s intercession for my son. I will admit, it is rather awkward for me. I think my Southern Baptist roots still hold me back a bit. Someone, who left the Southern Baptist Church, once said, “I’m a recovering Baptist.” Though somewhat humorous, there’s a lot in that statement.

There is actually an Anglican Rosary, and some Anglicans do pray the Hail Mary. I’m still thinking about it.

Peace,
Anna

Dear Anna,

I was browsing this thread and felt compelled to respond, although I haven’t read thru all of the posts and someone may have already suggested this. . . but, this past Season of Lent, I really wanted to learn how to deepen my prayer life and came across this wonderful audio cd by Lighthouse Catholic Media titled, Praying The Rosary Like Never Before by Dr. Edward Sri.

As a cradle Catholic, I was taught how to pray the Rosary but it was not a devotion that I did everyday. My Rosary Beads were usually brought out during Holy Week as I reflected on Jesus’ Passion, but I never really understood first, the roots of the Rosary and second, the power of The Rosary. I would just offer up a Hail Mary if someone asked me to pray for them. But, last year, I was fortunate enough to listen to a lovely lady, explain The Rosary and intercessory prayer and what happens while we are praying this type of intercessory prayer:

Praying The Rosary, just like all the treasures of the Catholic Church, lead us to Jesus.

As you pray the Rosary and you are reflecting on the life of Jesus and offering up prayers for our loved ones, picture Jesus in your mind sitting next to you listening to your request and as you are praying, The Blessed Virgin, Mary, is standing behind a curtain and she is quietly weeping as she listens to your request as well and as you continue to pray, She steps out from behind the curtain and says to her Son, please, if not for them, then for me. Jesus is an obedient Son.

We may not always get what we want in our prayer requests, but He will always make sure we get what we need and He will always answer our prayers.

What is nice in our Parish and certainly I’m sure in other Catholic Parishes, the Rosary is recited after 9:00 Mass together with others. I go to another Parish on Mondays because they pray the Novena in honor of Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal. Another powerful prayer.

I know the thread is asking Protestants to respond to how thru this site their opinions of Mary have changed, but as a cradle Catholic, I was always taught, first thru my mom and then by the Church, religious ed and pariochial school, that Mary is my Heavenly Mother and she loves me and each and every one of us! Praise God for He gives us such wonderful good gifts!

 

[kellerk]

I am applying the generic meaning of immaculate conception, meaning only one thing and one thing only ,Jesus was sinless. He was sinless at conception, birth, early life -midlife, to the end ,when He took on our sins, upon himself. He was in a sinful world (and I say humbly in a “fallen” Mary), yet was not tainted but prevailed.

Yes, but this is a question of Mary’s sinlessness, is it not?

God is everything good and cannot be touched by sin. Are you saying “because” He cannot be touched by sin, even in the womb of an ordinary woman that has been cursed by the fall, while He clothed Himself in her ordinary flesh in order to become human?
He was not touched by her sinfulness for the sole reason, sin cannot touch Him?

If this is what I believe you are implying…

Are you saying even after the angel Gabriel announced her name as “Hail, Full of Grace” and that the Holy Spirit will overshadow her (as was the case with the ark of the covenant btw), that the original sin still remained? It seems you are arguing that being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and being made Full of grace does not mean you are free from sin. Not even my beloved mother-in-law, from a strong Protestant background would defend that argument. She would agree that Mary was made pure by the Holy Spirit at the time Jesus was conceived, not at her birth. The only difference we have is of the timing of WHEN her sins were wiped clean… Whether at her birth or at the time Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, either way, we agree her sins had been wiped clean. You’re saying she remained in sin before, during and after the birth of Jesus?

 

[david_ruiz]

Yes, but this is a question of Mary’s sinlessness, is it not?

God is everything good and cannot be touched by sin. Are you saying “because” He cannot be touched by sin, even in the womb of an ordinary woman that has been cursed by the fall, while He clothed Himself in her ordinary flesh in order to become human?
He was not touched by her sinfulness for the sole reason, sin cannot touch Him?

If this is what I believe you are implying…

Are you saying even after the angel Gabriel announced her name as “Hail, Full of Grace” and that the Holy Spirit will overshadow her (as was the case with the ark of the covenant btw), that the original sin still remained? It seems you are arguing that being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and being made Full of grace does not mean you are free from sin. Not even my beloved mother-in-law, from a strong Protestant background would defend that argument. She would agree that Mary was made pure by the Holy Spirit at the time Jesus was conceived, not at her birth. The only difference we have is of the timing of WHEN her sins were wiped clean… Whether at her birth or at the time Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, either way, we agree her sins had been wiped clean. You’re saying she remained in sin before, during and after the birth of Jesus?

Thanks , get back to you but quickly ,after you confess, does your sin stay with you or is it as far as the east is from the west as Jesus promised ?

 

[kellerk]

Thanks , get back to you but quickly ,after you confess, does your sin stay with you or is it as far as the east is from the west as Jesus promised ?

So you are saying once she confessed “be it done unto me, according to Thy will”, she was cleansed? Then what you are saying contradicts your point that Jesus resided in the womb of a sinner.

 

[brumano]

Try Galatians 4:4-5, then cross-reference it with Luke 1:46-47 & Colossians 1:13-14. God bless!

great suggestion, but why skip Gal.4:3? It has the why and the wherefore for v4; up until then we were enslaved to the elemental powers of the world, in v4 God sends His Son born of a woman born under the law. This places both Jesus and Mary together under the law, not within a nature of sin, it also prooves that Mary and Joseph were married even though the account of their wedding is not given in the Gospels. But, in v5 we are certainly ransomed so that we might receive what? Adoption into this Holy family, becoming true children by proof, and so legitmate “heirs” as a Son or Daughter. All legitimate children must have a legitimate Father and a legitimate Mother. v7 is our title to our inheritance.

Yes, and Lk 1v48: “For” means because as “For” means because in Col.1v16, in v15 Christ can’t be the firstborn of all creation can He, because Adam was and v15 can’t have a definite meaning until we read 16, “For in Him all things were created…” Now we can see v15 perfectly; He is the firstborn of all creation. Why Lk.1v47, because Lk 1vs 48:“He has looked upon the lowliness of His handmaiden henceforth all generations shall call me blessed”. He looked upon her lowliness not sinfullness.

Col1:13, 14 we are also delivered, this time by transferrence into the Kingdom of His Beloved Son; the Only Begotten Son it is fair to say, no doubt, so The Beloved Son is Begotten in and of His Mother in His Kingdom and in Whom (v14) we have redemption and forgiveness of sins. Col:1vs16-20 is the Magnificient Preemminence of God the Father and the Son, and in vs.19 where did it please Him in Whom all the fullness was pleased to dwell, dwell?1JnC1vs:14. And The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. In Col.1v21 those alienated and hostile of mind because of their evil deeds , are reconciled in both His fleshly body which is from Mary, (“Blessed is the fruit of thy womb”) and through His death. God Bless you too.