Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary

[wheels10]

Traditional answer is love Him with all, then your neighbor, but none of this is possible unless the obvious greater command is obeyed - to have eternal life, to believe on Him whom the Father has sent, to be born again, make one’s election sure.

Hmmm…I don’t see how the other things that you have mentioned can be a greater commandment. I would rather say that those other things that you have mentioned are part of the commandment to **Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. **

Have you ever been successful in following this commandment in your life?

 

[wheels10]

Look deeper,other scriptures.Theye were forgiven. They were justified.They could be cleansed.

Could you provide some examples? If you believe this to be true then why did Jesus need to suffer and die?

 

[Ubenedictus]

No,i think that is the passage. Yes refers to Christ AND Mary

now i think you just shot yourself on the leg, i would interprete ‘born a subject of the law’ as refering to christ, but in your previous post you said it was refering to mary and according to you, since mary was born under the law not above it she couldnt be immaculately concieved.
Now you are saying those words were applied to mary and Jesus, following your line of reason that means neither Jesus nor mary was immaculately concieved. I think that draws real close to heresy on the birth of christ please clarify.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

If Mary could be protected from her mothers sin, Jesus could be protected from Mary’s sin.One can not escape this

i personally think that the arguement isnt the best. Jesus as you said could be protected because all things are possible for God. But well it wont be fitting mary was like a tabernacle of baby Jesus she would concieve the all holy in sin. The real question is when did her life of grace begin. The RCC says she was elected chosen before time and prepare from her earliest begining, when do you think her life of grace started?

quagmire…If you wanna say the IC simply was, ok ,but not because it had to be for any reason, especially this “contamination/sin/holiness/vessel issue”. Again,nope. Mary’s mother had sin and it did NOT taint Mary according to IC . Jesus therefore could be protected from Mary’s sin, as Mary was protected from her mothers sin. Ditto ?

at the end we had the holy God coming out of sin, really not fitting of His holiness.

 

[Ubenedictus]

“The only one who had an Immaculate Conception was Jesus” . I am saying Jesus was born spotless. Sorry you misunderstood my applying immaculate conception to Jesus and or perhaps what that term means per my statement.

is that quote found in the bible?
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Please David can you respond to #286

 

[Ubenedictus]

Yes, but this is a question of Mary’s sinlessness, is it not?

God is everything good and cannot be touched by sin. Are you saying “because” He cannot be touched by sin, even in the womb of an ordinary woman that has been cursed by the fall, while He clothed Himself in her ordinary flesh in order to become human?
He was not touched by her sinfulness for the sole reason, sin cannot touch Him?

If this is what I believe you are implying…

Are you saying even after the angel Gabriel announced her name as “Hail, Full of Grace” and that the Holy Spirit will overshadow her (as was the case with the ark of the covenant btw), that the original sin still remained? It seems you are arguing that being overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and being made Full of grace does not mean you are free from sin. Not even my beloved mother-in-law, from a strong Protestant background would defend that argument. She would agree that Mary was made pure by the Holy Spirit at the time Jesus was conceived, not at her birth. The only difference we have is of the timing of WHEN her sins were wiped clean… Whether at her birth or at the time Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, either way, we agree her sins had been wiped clean. You’re saying she remained in sin before, during and after the birth of Jesus?

Dear David,
i think you skipped this post, you didnt answer any of the points raised. Can you please revisit?
Ubenedictus

 

[rinnie]

When are any of us justified ? It is apparent it was before the Annunciation. For sure when she reached the age of reasoning , and heard the “Word” and believed and hence could be found as such by the Lord some time later leading to the visitation.

It is apparent? How, Show us, Some kind of Proof please. Something from the bible would be great.

Now you say for sure when she reached the age of reasoning and heard the word and believed…Where david do you get this information?

Explain this to me david, In the book of Rev. and the sign of Isaiah are the same.

A virgin will give brith to the leader of Israel.

St John was given by Jesus on the cross to Mary as her Son. This means John knes Mary better then anyone except of course Jesus.

He is try to tell us about her status in heaven. Read Rev 11:19 He says the ark of the Cov. is a woman clothed with the Sun. Which ONLY means IMMACULATELY conceived Virgin.

The rest of the scripture speaks how God puts enmity between the devil and the virgin. Now that means the devil CANNOT get to her.

Now you say the devil did get to her. You said she indeed had sin.

Now if the devil did get to her and she was not immaculately conceived, which of course means saved from all sin at the moment of her conception, this only means one thing.

The Blessed Mother cannot be the virgin predicted in the O.T. and Jesus cannot be the savior of Israel.

Now either the Church is correct and the bible is correct and it is indeed Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mother is indeed the one predicted to be the Woman clothed with the Sun as St John speaks of. Or she has not come yet, and neither did Jesus.

Whats it going to be david? As I said you cannot have it both ways.

 

[david_ruiz]

Hmmm…I don’t see how the other things that you have mentioned can be a greater commandment. I would rather say that those other things that you have mentioned are part of the commandment to **Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. **

Have you ever been successful in following this commandment in your life?

Nope, and yet…

 

[david_ruiz]

Could you provide some examples? If you believe this to be true then why did Jesus need to suffer and die?

Jesus was not part of the Promise ? Was he not prophesied about ? Did not some know foreshadow of things (Him) to come ? Even David said of the promise of one of his descendnts, "how can this be, for these are not the ways of man "(someone fullfilling all). Hebrews tells how the old were justifed, saved, made righteous, even perfect.

 

[david_ruiz]

It is apparent? How, Show us, Some kind of Proof please. Something from the bible would be great.

Now you say for sure when she reached the age of reasoning and heard the word and believed…Where david do you get this information?

Explain this to me david, In the book of Rev. and the sign of Isaiah are the same.

A virgin will give brith to the leader of Israel.

St John was given by Jesus on the cross to Mary as her Son. This means John knes Mary better then anyone except of course Jesus.

He is try to tell us about her status in heaven. Read Rev 11:19 He says the ark of the Cov. is a woman clothed with the Sun. Which ONLY means IMMACULATELY conceived Virgin.

The rest of the scripture speaks how God puts enmity between the devil and the virgin. Now that means the devil CANNOT get to her.

Now you say the devil did get to her. You said she indeed had sin.

Now if the devil did get to her and she was not immaculately conceived, which of course means saved from all sin at the moment of her conception, this only means one thing.

The Blessed Mother cannot be the virgin predicted in the O.T. and Jesus cannot be the savior of Israel.

Now either the Church is correct and the bible is correct and it is indeed Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mother is indeed the one predicted to be the Woman clothed with the Sun as St John speaks of. Or she has not come yet, and neither did Jesus.

Whats it going to be david? As I said you cannot have it both ways.

What I said does not contradict John .This enmity thing ,who says if you sin once ,you are not at emnity with the Devil ? Eve and all ot saints/believers were at enmity with the children of darkness,yet Eve and all her children were not perfect ,except for their justifying faith. Mary was also ,in line with the children Eve, of the light ,believers in the promise was also at emnity with the devil ,perfect or imperfect. Perhaps we differ with regeneration,the old man vs the new man ,whether there is imputed righteousness or not ,or whether we must be righteous acting always ,of course with God’s help, and when we sin who is really sinning ? St. Paul explains it all in his epistles. …Just reread ,but where is the prophecy that the virgin must also be immaculate ? Is that in Rev clothed -covered in the “Son” ?

 

[david_ruiz]

Dear David,
i think you skipped this post, you didnt answer any of the points raised. Can you please revisit?
Ubenedictus

Hi UB no ,have been very busy-been meaning to answer that again .May just look up earlier thread and repost ,if i can find .It was a good reply where the catholic questioner understood and totally agreed , just a matter of timing , and method. I"ll look

 

[david_ruiz]

Please David can you respond to #286

From thread # 240:
Of course there is a cleansing .There has always been a way for “cleansing” since day 1 after the fall . I don’t mind calling Mary “immaculate” -cleansed, for apparently so was Enoch and Abraham and perfect Job etc .As A catholic pointed out , so are we, for we are cleansed,made new and indwelt by God. What I mind is saying the way of cleansing for those above was ditched for something better for Mary. As if Judaism, the old testament counterpart for what you say is the One,Holy, Apostolic Catholic Church, that brought all light to the world, and kept up and carried out the steps necessary to fulfill the original garden Promise-no longer could cleanse, but needed a “special dispensation” of grace. It is like you are rewriting history, forgetting we are of Jewish descent. . Of course Mary was cleansed, had a regenerated, faithful, knowledgeable, believing spirit. No one is saying she was spiritually reprobate, an unbeliever etc .Perhaps that is why it did not matter to declare this special grace for milennia ,for she was always regarded properly and highly. Mary was justified by faith, put in right relationship with God, saved a relationship that was broken otherwise due to original sin of Eve. That aspect of original sin was cleansed and she became a “seed” of Eve in spirit , not just in flesh because of her Jewishness and was at enmity with satan’s seed. Was she perfect,did she sin ? Her old nature sinned, was imperfect. Her new nature was perfect in faith. I do not believe this ocurred at birth, but for sure fully at the age of reasoning , when she wilfully believed, by the grace of God.I can only infer this by what St.Paul says about OT believers and what it is /was to be Jewish. For sure ,at the “announcement” she had found favor with God , understood the “promise” of Messiah, and obeyed.Certainly none of this would have happened with prior cleansing/regeneration/justification .

 

[rinnie]

From thread # 240:
Of course there is a cleansing .There has always been a way for “cleansing” since day 1 after the fall . I don’t mind calling Mary “immaculate” -cleansed, for apparently so was Enoch and Abraham and perfect Job etc .As A catholic pointed out , so are we, for we are cleansed,made new and indwelt by God. What I mind is saying the way of cleansing for those above was ditched for something better for Mary. As if Judaism, the old testament counterpart for what you say is the One,Holy, Apostolic Catholic Church, that brought all light to the world, and kept up and carried out the steps necessary to fulfill the original garden Promise-no longer could cleanse, but needed a “special dispensation” of grace. It is like you are rewriting history, forgetting we are of Jewish descent. . Of course Mary was cleansed, had a regenerated, faithful, knowledgeable, believing spirit. No one is saying she was spiritually reprobate, an unbeliever etc .Perhaps that is why it did not matter to declare this special grace for milennia ,for she was always regarded properly and highly. Mary was justified by faith, put in right relationship with God, saved a relationship that was broken otherwise due to original sin of Eve. That aspect of original sin was cleansed and she became a “seed” of Eve in spirit , not just in flesh because of her Jewishness and was at enmity with satan’s seed. Was she perfect,did she sin ? Her old nature sinned, was imperfect. Her new nature was perfect in faith. I do not believe this ocurred at birth, but for sure fully at the age of reasoning , when she wilfully believed, by the grace of God.I can only infer this by what St.Paul says about OT believers and what it is /was to be Jewish. For sure ,at the “announcement” she had found favor with God , understood the “promise” of Messiah, and obeyed.Certainly none of this would have happened with prior cleansing/regeneration/justification .

David how can you have no problem calling Mary Immaculate which means completely clean without a spot of sin, but yet you say she has sin??

Where was it ever in Catholic teaching that Abraham was immaculate or Job or Enoch. they we are touched with Original sin. Where are you getting this from. Why do you refuse to show proof of what you are saying?

What does the human nature of Mary being human have to do with God saving her from sin at the moment of her conception??

Why do you continue to say her faith was perfect and saved her? Where in the world does anyones faith save them? We are saved by the grace of God not our faith. Are we back to we can be saved without the grace of God and our own faith can save us again. Please lets not go there.

And sorry david she could not be perfect is she is not perfect. Case closed there. Being made perfect is without sin, not being cleansed from it at the age of reasoning. So you feel that when we confess our sins and are forgiven we become PERFECT??

Please david some scripture to back up something. You continue to give your opinion, which is in direct conflict with the Apostles.

The Apostles claim she was FULL OF GRACE and the LORD was with her. This is BEFORE she was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. But yet you claim when she was overshadowed with the Holy Spirit her faith made her perfect. How? Again direct opposite of the Apostles teaching. Can you explain this?

 

[rinnie]

From thread # 240:
Of course there is a cleansing .There has always been a way for “cleansing” since day 1 after the fall . I don’t mind calling Mary “immaculate” -cleansed, for apparently so was Enoch and Abraham and perfect Job etc .As A catholic pointed out , so are we, for we are cleansed,made new and indwelt by God. What I mind is saying the way of cleansing for those above was ditched for something better for Mary. As if Judaism, the old testament counterpart for what you say is the One,Holy, Apostolic Catholic Church, that brought all light to the world, and kept up and carried out the steps necessary to fulfill the original garden Promise-no longer could cleanse, but needed a “special dispensation” of grace. It is like you are rewriting history, forgetting we are of Jewish descent. . Of course Mary was cleansed, had a regenerated, faithful, knowledgeable, believing spirit. No one is saying she was spiritually reprobate, an unbeliever etc .Perhaps that is why it did not matter to declare this special grace for milennia ,for she was always regarded properly and highly. Mary was justified by faith, put in right relationship with God, saved a relationship that was broken otherwise due to original sin of Eve. That aspect of original sin was cleansed and she became a “seed” of Eve in spirit , not just in flesh because of her Jewishness and was at enmity with satan’s seed. Was she perfect,did she sin ? Her old nature sinned, was imperfect. Her new nature was perfect in faith. I do not believe this ocurred at birth, but for sure fully at the age of reasoning , when she wilfully believed, by the grace of God.I can only infer this by what St.Paul says about OT believers and what it is /was to be Jewish. For sure ,at the “announcement” she had found favor with God , understood the “promise” of Messiah, and obeyed.Certainly none of this would have happened with prior cleansing/regeneration/justification .

Really david, there was a cleansing since the first day of the fall? How? I admit as I said earlier there was indeed a (name removed by moderator)ERFECT way of cleansing by animals in the O.T. But it did not take away Original Sin. If it did, why was Abraham waiting to be released by Christ?

 

[rinnie]

What I said does not contradict John .This enmity thing ,who says if you sin once ,you are not at emnity with the Devil ? Eve and all ot saints/believers were at enmity with the children of darkness,yet Eve and all her children were not perfect ,except for their justifying faith. Mary was also ,in line with the children Eve, of the light ,believers in the promise was also at emnity with the devil ,perfect or imperfect. Perhaps we differ with regeneration,the old man vs the new man ,whether there is imputed righteousness or not ,or whether we must be righteous acting always ,of course with God’s help, and when we sin who is really sinning ? St. Paul explains it all in his epistles. …Just reread ,but where is the prophecy that the virgin must also be immaculate ? Is that in Rev clothed -covered in the “Son” ?

David what are you talking about by the way with the enmity thing? The enmity thing as you state if what God said in the O.T. It could not be Eve because she sinned because of the devil.

Mary was at enmity with the devil because she did not give in to sin, like Eve. What are you talking about here?

 

[david_ruiz]

David what are you talking about by the way with the enmity thing? The enmity thing as you state if what God said in the O.T. It could not be Eve because she sinned because of the devil.

Mary was at enmity with the devil because she did not give in to sin, like Eve. What are you talking about here?

Genesis 3;15" And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed". Eve sinned. She was separated from God . She hid. God shed blood of an animal and “covered” her and recocnciled the relationship, but with consequences. Her sin was forgiven-her original sin was forgiven.She was not spiritually dead. From Eve would come children of the light, carriers of the Promise, at odds with the devil .From her would also come children of darkness, children of the devil. Where do get that to be an enemy of the devil you must be perfect ?..

 

[david_ruiz]

Really david, there was a cleansing since the first day of the fall? How? I admit as I said earlier there was indeed a (name removed by moderator)ERFECT way of cleansing by animals in the O.T. But it did not take away Original Sin. If it did, why was Abraham waiting to be released by Christ?

Good .We admit there was a cleansing ,but it was more faith in the foresahdow of the final “Sacrifice”, foretold right there in the Garden. It eliminated some of the consequences,not all as you state .Abraham had to wait for Calvary to actually take place,but he was as righteous before as after justice was carried out(Calvary). He was certainly justified ,saved, righteous before God before Calvary. Hebrews 11:7 Noah…became heir of the righteousness which is by faith". Gen15:6"-And he (Abraham) believed in the Lord, and He counted it to him for righteousness." By him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses " Acts13:29. Zech3;4 “Behold , I have caused thine inequity to pass from thee and i will clothe thee with raiment"Isa 61:10 “My soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness…” Romans 3;28 " we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law” Rom 4:5" But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness .Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth the righteousness without works. Saying, blessed are they whose inequities are forgiven and whose sins are covered" …Again we are all saying Mary is also blessed . I just say it is in the above fashion- which is good old and new testament saints. She did not need the immaculate conception to be cleansed,forgiven, righteous, blessed and full of grace.

 

[david_ruiz]

?Job,1:8 "Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is non like him on the earth, a perfect and upright man, one that feareth God and eschewith evil ? " Enoch and Elijah were both translated to heaven.Well at least they went “up”,did not see death. Remember for 1800 years you did not have to believe in the IC. You were a Catholic in very good standing , even Apostolic ,to say the things I am saying about Mary. And the same could be said for most of your arguments also.

 

[wheels10]

Hmmm…I don’t see how the other things that you have mentioned can be a greater commandment. I would rather say that those other things that you have mentioned are part of the commandment to **Love God with all your heart, mind and soul. **

Have you ever been successful in following this commandment in your life?

Nope, and yet…

Our Blessed Mother Mary has always Loved God with all Her Heart, Mind and Soul.
She doesn’t know any other way to Love. This is the will of God, and Mary Loves to do the will of God.
When we pray to Mary, She continues to Love God with all Her Heart, Mind and Soul, the only difference is that now we also Love God perfectly through Her.