Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary

[wheels10]

Very nice .So now perfect Love is imputed to you thru Mary ? Didn’t you know imputing is a protestant thing ? But no, imputation is good, especially righteousness. In an earlier thread imputed righteousness is not proper theology per some Catholics. Thank-you

The following identifies some of the differences in the understanding of justification:

We have seen that Protestants claim the following three qualities for justification: certainty, equality, the impossibility of ever losing it. Diametrically opposed to these qualities are those defended by the Council of Trent (sess. VI, cap. 9-11): uncertainty (incertitudo), inequality (inaequalitas), amissibility (ammisibilitas). Since these qualities of justification are also qualities of sanctifying grace, see GRACE.

newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;9427367:

so you are saying abel is the guy is the seed of eve, the enemy of satan. The reason the church fathers called that passage the protoevangelium was because abel nor eve was involved in crushing the serpents’ head, or do you think they did? actually it was a bit simple enemity between the serpent and ‘the woman’. i just got the feeling like the chuch fathers that this ‘the woman’ is actual the ‘woman’ on calvary looking at her son.
Ubenedictus

Is Mary(and Joseph) and Jesus the seed after David,after Abraham even after Eve? My statement is quite in line with protoevenglium .Why do you think scripture goes thru all those boring geneologies ?

 

[david_ruiz]

Now we’re finally getting into a question of great interest and I’m sure there’s others who can give you better updating on what is being taken under more focused contemplation by the hierarchical church, concerning Mary, and what should be indoctrinated into existing church teaching about her. In one of your earlier posts you noted that there were disagreements about Marian Doctrines between Catholics, this question you’ve now posted really explains why your first question does not really disclaim any of Mary’s honors already well established. For Roman Catholics the existing doctrines are the starting place for discussion and deeper understanding not controversies to be constantly re opened.
We can as Catholics have some difference of opinion about how the doctrines took place and what they portend, not what they are; one of these differences in opinioniated belief that you may know is a long standing question about the Assumption, and how it actually took place; was Mary taken up by God after a time of dormition (not death) or in the awake state of full active personal communion with the Trinity. Another one is very current, we all believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary, but was she made immaculate in herself or was she made immaculate by the pre extention of salvivic grace meritted by her Son. Do we pray to Mary or do we pray only for her intercession…I think you get the picture, and you can see from that picture that none of these doctrines can or should be grafted into church teaching without the fullness of definition being made, or revealed even if they do not reach that fullness in hundreds or even thousands of years. However, when they are full they must be defined at their time. Now to get to the direct answer of your question I do know that the church’s examen of Mary as Mediatrix of All Graces has developed to a stage of fullness that was recognized by the Pope as requiring his public statement at this time, he said the dogma should not be defined at this time because it presents a difficulty in it’s language disparity with the language of the Scriptures, and I’m sure he also in the same vein anticipates that the language of the doctrine would be difficult for some Catholics, and the non Catholic world to digest.

Thank-you .I believe that is the term i heard on the radio.Don’t recall what it means though.

 

[david_ruiz]

Pablope,

Very good argument. I continue to ask David Ruiz to tell me more about the history of those that oppose the IC, because you have to think about it from the historical and theological point of view. Are you telling us that we had to wait until recently to have someone appear, and say that Mary Perpetual Virginity, and Immaculate Conception are wrong? and that all the founders of the Early Church who gave their life to keep the teachings of the apostles (who also gave their life) were wrong?. It doesn’t make sense.

Sorry i am not better at history .i know enough to question your “all” though .If I recall there was no mention of anything near IC the first hundred years as far as Father writings.Proves nothing ,either way .Can not say "all’ then .

 

[Patavium]

Sorry i am not better at history .i know enough to question your “all” though .If I recall there was no mention of anything near IC the first hundred years as far as Father writings.Proves nothing ,either way .Can not say "all’ then .

David Ruiz, What is theologically accurate for you?

Would you disagree with the apostles themselves on teaching?

 

[pablope]

Sorry i am not better at history .i know enough to question your “all” though .If I recall there was no mention of anything near IC the first hundred years as far as Father writings.Proves nothing ,either way .Can not say "all’ then .

Well, David…following your logic above…since there was no protestantism for the first 1500 yrs of Christianity…what does that make protestantism?

And in addition…there was not Bible alone, no SS…faith alone prior to Luther…what does thou sayeth then of protestantism?

And what do you say of this passage from Samuel:

1 Samuel 15:22-23
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

 

[Patavium]

David Ruiz consider this.

You disagree with Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other first generation protestants and also with Catholics (of several generations - 1500 years) with regards to the doctrines of Virgin Mary.

Would you also disagree with the apostles themselves?

 

[brumano]

Thank-you .I believe that is the term i heard on the radio.Don’t recall what it means though.

That proves the Pope is right in his reasoning and I agree with his decision at this time; Mary is still a stumbling block to the seperated brethren and the non believers, to declare this doctrine at this time would probably be counter productive to the advancement of the true faith and that surely is not what Mary is all about.

 

[dsully]

Mary spent her life in the part of the Eastern Church…I suggest you post in the Eastern Catholic section…they could direct you to sources of the early devotion to Mary…their traditions…their beliefs…and a lot of other information.

 

[pablope]

pablope;9431765:

I have been trying to talk to Byzantine Rite priest. I suppose I can also post in the forum to see what kind of feedback I can get.

I bookmarked Hail Holy Queen on Amazon. It looks like an interesting book.

I did read the Called to Communion article. I understand the position being taken there: Christians shouldn’t pick and choose what they want from Catholic tradition. They are obligated to follow the whole tradition, which means becoming Catholic. Lots of times I share the perspective of the author, which is why I am interested in becoming Catholic. But other times I get a little bit skeptical, suspicious, etc. I do think it’s safe to say there are also reasons to be skeptical and suspicious about the Reformation as well. I actually had a similar experience as the author in talking with a Mormon. I realized that, from the Catholic perspective, Protestantism might seem rather similar to the Church of Latter Day Saints, only with Martin Luther as its founder rather than Joseph Smith, or rather like one of the other heresies encountered in the history of the Church, such as Gnosticism. However, it is just so difficult for me to make the leap from a Sola Scriptura-based type of thinking into a Church Authority-based type of thinking. Even if I understand the logic of Catholic thinking, there is something in me that keeps me from completely surrendering…at least for now.

Dan

In due time, Dan…with an open mind…you will get there.

Perhaps, this person’s story can relate to you:

calledtocommunion.com/2012/02/making-my-way-to-the-church-christ-founded-2/

or this: calledtocommunion.com/2012/02/an-opc-pastor-enters-the-catholic-church/

I find this citation interesting:

What piqued my interest now was the peculiar thesis of this one book. Bouyer claimed that the Catholic Church is necessary for the full flowering of the principles of the Reformation. Put differently – Protestantism needs Catholicism in order to become all it aspires to be, which, of course, if true means the Protestant Reformation was completely unnecessary. Worse, it means that the Reformation was impossible from the outset because the reformers had unwittingly cut themselves off from the only source that could make their vision fruitful.

 

[dsully]

dsully;9436121:

What piqued my interest now was the peculiar thesis of this one book. Bouyer claimed that the Catholic Church is necessary for the full flowering of the principles of the Reformation. Put differently – Protestantism needs Catholicism in order to become all it aspires to be, which, of course, if true means the Protestant Reformation was completely unnecessary. Worse, it means that the Reformation was impossible from the outset because the reformers had unwittingly cut themselves off from the only source that could make their vision fruitful.

Without having read the book, I think I can agree with that statement. Or I might just change it a bit to say that “Protestants need Catholicism to become all they aspire to be.” Sometimes people will leave Protestant churches, not because they are giving up on the Lord or on His mission, but because they sense that something is missing and that there must be something more. For example, a study conducted by the Willow Creek Association has proven that it is often not the least-dedicated Christians who leave evangelical churches, but the most. I’ve also heard that the average stay for an individual at an evangelical church is four years. After that time, they move on, sometimes to other evangelical churches, sometimes to no church at all (the “I’ll just ‘do church’ on my own” thing), sometimes to Catholic or Orthodox churches.

 

[brumano]

It refer to Mary, because in Revelation 12:1, the ‘Woman’ is in Heaven (assumed to be 'Assumed" yes, ‘play on words’). while LATER in v.6 & again in v. 14, the ‘Woman’ is fleeing into the wilderness. If this is Mary, then the events are backwards (being Assumed in Heaven - v.1, THEN LATER being driven into the wilderness by the dragon - v.6 & 14). THEN, the ‘Woman’ is being chased by ‘the serpent’ (v.15), which is identified as ‘the devil, Satan, the SERPENT of old,’ (v.9), NOT Herod.

The belief that the ‘Woman’ is Israel is supported by Scripture - compare Revelation 12:1 to Genesis 37:5-10, which the belief that it’s Mary is not. In fact, it doesn’t make sense.

Our belief is that the real woman Mary is the Mother of Israel, the Mother of all the living of Israel who non Cathoilic Christians believe includes them as one or more of the twelve tribes of Israel. The woman in scripture is always united with her children, scripturally.

in Gen 37:5-10 we read the two successive dreams of Joseph, in 10 his father jacob rebukes him for the dream, indignantly asking him; shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come and bow down before you to the ground? 11, the brothers were again jealous, but his father kept the saying in mind. that must mean that he (Jacob) remembers it and as it turns out Jacob does come and bow down before Joseph in Egypt as a ruler of the land, But his wife, Joseph’s mother Rachel dies in the land of Canaan, Gen 48:v7 and was buried there while on the way to Ephrath which is Bethlehem.
Joseph’s dream is shown to be in error on the one point, his Mother never bowed to him.

 

[pablope]

Have you heard of Catherine of Sienna? She was a reformer prior to Luther. I asked this question…why is it that Catherine can reform the Church without the need to split it, like what Luther did?

Why did Luther need to split the from the Church?

Then I came across this verse:
1 Samuel 15:22-23
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

Then also asked…what good is your intention if it is borne out of disobedience?

And look at what happened to Catherine…she has an incorrupted body and received the Stigmata.

Sometimes people will leave Protestant churches, not because they are giving up on the Lord or on His mission, but because they sensete that something is missing and that there must be something more. For example, a study conducted by the Willow Creek Association has proven that it is often not the least-dedicated Christians who leave evangelical churches, but the most. I’ve also heard that the average stay for an individual at an evangelical church is four years. After that time, they move on, sometimes to other evangelical churches, sometimes to no church at all (the “I’ll just ‘do church’ on my own” thing), sometimes to Catholic or Orthodox churches.

I may have heard this discussed on Catholic Answers radio…I will paraphrase it…it goes…protestants are generally taught of faith alone as only necessary…after believing…they are left…what now? What is left to do? Kind of…what further purpose is there…why don’t Jesus 2nd coming happen now? and are left wondering…

 

[dsully]

I haven’t heard of Catherine. Hopefully I can look into her bio tonight.

I actually heard a well-respected Catholic priest lament the fact that Luther did not recant. This priest thought that Luther could have been one of the great reformers of the Catholic Church if he had submitted to authority. The priest also speculated that there might have been a Lutheran order in the Catholic Church if Luther had been more cooperative.

I agree with that sense of “What is there left to do?” as a Protestant. Certainly I enjoy worshiping the way we do (who doesn’t like to sing songs?) But the idea of taking in the Eucharist as the body and blood of the Lord just seems so spiritually appetizing. I want to have the divine life within me through the sacrament.

 

[KathleenGee]

That is my opinion now of Luther as well…if he would have stayed in, he would have helped reformed the Church and now we celebrating him as a saint.

Catherine of Siena spoke a great deal and with much force, especially on her book regarding the Church in her ‘Dialogues’.

I see Protestantism essentially as a broken, fractured faith…if only Luther had persevered in the Lord…

Is it true an angel of the Lord appeared to him exhorting him not to go through with what he did???

 

[Reuben_J]

I actually heard a well-respected Catholic priest lament the fact that Luther did not recant. This priest thought that Luther could have been one of the great reformers of the Catholic Church if he had submitted to authority. The priest also speculated that there might have been a Lutheran order in the Catholic Church if Luther had been more cooperative.

He could but he left the Church and that is unforgiveable. To split the Church that Jesus founded would weigh down on him as a very big mistake on his part. When you rebel, it opens a plethora of divisions that encourages other mutinies to surface. We cannot be blind to the fact that the results of this rebellion by Luther are the thousands of churches denominations today. Jesus’ heart must be bleeding with sadness when he sees his Church being fractured into small pieces and Christians are free to interpret and form their own doctrines.

 

[Cat_Herder]

The belief that the ‘Woman’ is Israel is supported by Scripture - compare Revelation 12:1 to Genesis 37:5-10, which the belief that it’s Mary is not. In fact, it doesn’t make sense.

If the Woman was Israel then why is it that the Woman is not depicted as handing the Child over to the serpent to be killed?

[BIBLEDRB]Mark 15:11-15[/BIBLEDRB]

And what about this?

[BIBLEDRB]Rev 12:17[/BIBLEDRB]

Do Jews keep the testimony of Jesus?

 

[kellerk]

pablope;9439559:

I haven’t heard of Catherine. Hopefully I can look into her bio tonight.

Thank you for this beautiful testimony. It brings me joy to hear of such reverence held for the Holy Eucharist. 1 Cor 1 1:29-30 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eatheth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

 

[pablope]

I think her writings are compiled into a book called Dialogues.

I actually heard a well-respected Catholic priest lament the fact that Luther did not recant. This priest thought that Luther could have been one of the great reformers of the Catholic Church if he had submitted to authority. The priest also speculated that there might have been a Lutheran order in the Catholic Church if Luther had been more cooperative.

Indeed…he could have been another Catherine of Sienna…or comparable to these reformers too…Francis of Assisi and St. Dominic, founder of the Dominican order.

Some of Luther’s teachings, I have read those posted here…those things he wanted to reform…but instead of talking about his teachings…I find them agreeable and would have benefited the Church a great deal…but sadly…what is being talked about are…faith alone, Bible alone, different denominations, the removal of 7 books from the OT, etc.

I agree with that sense of “What is there left to do?” as a Protestant. Certainly I enjoy worshiping the way we do (who doesn’t like to sing songs?) But the idea of taking in the Eucharist as the body and blood of the Lord just seems so spiritually appetizing. I want to have the divine life within me through the sacrament.

Nothing will compare to receiving the Eucharist…Dan. If nobody has recommended to you yet…may I recommend going to a parish with Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration…spend a few minutes…in front of the Eucharist…meditate, pray…ask for your guidance.

And also, attend a Benediction service…it should last about 30 minutes.

For further reading, the 3 states of way…the purgative, illuminative, unitive…in our journey of growth in Christ…if you have time to read and inquire further…newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

The purgative way

The purgative way is the way, or state, of those who are beginners, that is, those who have obtained justification, but have not their passions and evil inclinations in such a state of subjugation that they can easily overcome temptations, and who, in order to preserve and exercise charity and the other virtues have to keep up a continual warfare within themselves.

The illuminative way

The illuminative way is that of those who are in the state of progress and have their passions better under control, so that they easily keep themselves from mortal sin, but who do not so easily avoid venial sins, because they still take pleasure in earthly things and allow their minds to be distracted by various imaginations and their hearts with numberless desires, though not in matters that are strictly unlawful

The unitive way

The unitive way is the way of those who are in the state of the perfect, that is, those who have their minds so drawn away from all temporal things that they enjoy great peace, who are neither agitated by various desires nor moved by any great extent by passion, and who have their minds chiefly fixed on God and their attention turned, either always or very frequently, to Him. It is the union with God by love and the actual experience and exercise of that love.

 

[rinnie]

Never said she did not suffer spiritually with original sin .She did,She hid from God Are you kidding .That is like hiding from the most marvelous person ,experience ever .She was spiritually dead .but for how long ? I say until God spilled blood and covered her and spoke to her and recociled .Not hard to believe .How long were you dead ? 7-8 days and then were baptized ?

David how and when was she baptised? When did God spill his blood as you say and reconciled her? Before the death of his Son Jesus Christ. I don’t th ink so.

WHen are you getting this 7-8 days? What are you talking about? Are you trying to say Eve was saved from Original sin before Christ died on the Cross, and she was not free from Original sin until she caused it