Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary

[david_ruiz]

i thought the bible is very clear that scripture isnt up for personal interpretation.
Ubenedictus

2 peter 1:19-21.The prophecy of scripture is not interpreted but by God himself who gave it .It is a beautiful verse to show how scripture can reign in false myths ,that scripture is even stronger than a voice heard from heaven.

 

[david_ruiz]

i think you forgot about the orthodox patriarch. mary doctrine? Is that what you called it? The council of ephesus anathemise a bishop because he wouldnt assent to the title ‘theotokus’. His refusal of assent showed a hole in his christological faith. Marian doctrines exists because they clear up the question of the existence of Jesus the God man.
Ubenedictus

By the same token some say in clearing up Christological matters you have raised Marion problems. To an undiscerning heart Mother of God may mean .mother of God ,not just the second part of the trinity ,the son, but the whole package .Theoetokus to me simply means mother of Jesus, who was both man and God. Some may see Jesus as only God. with title mother of God.Fascinating though Thank -you . Again ,has nothing to do with IC,assumption,ever virgin. As you say ,Christological issue.

 

[david_ruiz]

Hi Rinnie,

I have been doing a little lurking … and this is a very good post!

From what I have seen, Daivd is having a hard time staying consistent. The key here is that Mary received a most special Grace from God - because God chose her to be part of His Plan for our salvation. Mary did nothing to ‘earn’ this special Grace - that of her being sinless from the moment of her conception.

From my understanding of some Protestant arguments, the Catholic position is totally misunderstood and then incorrectly presented. Considering how most people have a special love for their own Mothers - is it so difficult to think that Christ does not have a Special Love for His Mother?

God bless

Whosever does the will of the father is my mother .

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;9327604:

I don’t understand what you want to say - you might explain.

Not sure what you didn’t get ,but do you think the old testament provided a way of being cleansed , to be touched by God ? How was Job “perfect”? How was Enoch or Elijah righteousness enough to be transported “up”? This is important cause part of the reason for the doctrine of immaculate conception is that Mary would other wise have been “dirty” ,uninhabitable by a holy God who can not be joined to sin. Was there a way for sin to be covered ,forgiven in the old testament ? Were OT saints born again, regenerated , in spirit , alive unto God where they were once dead in sin (original) ?

 

[david_ruiz]

those baptism of sorts werent effective for sins hence a need of the new covenant

 

[Cinette]

I can’t comprehend, when without a doubt the greatest Mystery is the Incarnation. All others in relation to Jesus flowed from the Incarnation. How one overlooks this Mystery is in fact a mystery to me.

*You are SO right. Yes, we must try (although it is not easy) to look at the facts, the reality and not our opinions - Faith is never a matter of opinion!

Cinette*

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pablope,

Excellent post!

Here is a link which provides some insights from the ECF concerning Mary’s Perpetual Virginity: catholic.com/tracts/mary-ever-virgin

God bless

Mary spent her life in the part of the Eastern Church…I suggest you post in the Eastern Catholic section…they could direct you to sources of the early devotion to Mary…their traditions…their beliefs…and a lot of other information.

 

[rinnie]

well, it’s so easy to believe. That’s not what I say, but that’s what Pope Benedict XVI. said, and he is true. Our kids do believe - until - until hey meet our disbelieve. Then thesy ponder who is true? Where lays the real truth? And then it was us who blows their believe away in all directions, like the dandelion’s many little oarachutes that land where so ever, on rocks, on ot roads, on the sea - in the nowhere.
"Why is it so easy for a child to accept these ideals?"
simply because THESE IDEAS are the very truth. The one and only truth. And this divive truth has an affection to us. But hells powers work to inforce the untruth. Oh, they do a great job. And you know - we even help them, by relativizing things. Relativizing of course on our very own relativism, which is focused on earthly experiences only. With no referrence to God what so ever.
So, how can we ask:
“Why is it so easy for a child to accept these ideals?”
It actually is sooo easy for us all the same to accept, but we simply refuse, because we stupidly enough relativize with our earthly conditions.
That’s as if an ant would relativize the world out of her anthill.

Yours
Bruno

I have always wondered about this also, Here is something I believe, anyone who has had children or been around newborn babys can relate to.

Do you ever notice when they get a little older and open their eyes you walk in and they are laying on their back reaching up for something, like something is there, and laughing.

Do they see their angels? Who knows but they see something, I believe angels, With no sin actual or orginal they are free from sin, Is that the trick. Being completely free from sin.

Are we conditioned as we get older to quit believing so thats why we can’t see, is it our sin that makes the seeing impossible? Who knows? But I believe they see angels.

I wonder is that what God meant to have faith like a child to enter the gates of heaven. To be like them open, loving again, pure, and sin free.

 

[rinnie]

Cinette;9457005:

Not sure what you didn’t get ,but do you think the old testament provided a way of being cleansed , to be touched by God ? How was Job “perfect”? How was Enoch or Elijah righteousness enough to be transported “up”? This is important cause part of the reason for the doctrine of immaculate conception is that Mary would other wise have been “dirty” ,uninhabitable by a holy God who can not be joined to sin. Was there a way for sin to be covered ,forgiven in the old testament ? Were OT saints born again, regenerated , in spirit , alive unto God where they were once dead in sin (original) ?

I did not know that Job was perfect. Job was righteous in his faith in God, I believe. But if Job were perfect he would not have died.

Being righteous and perfect are 2 very different things. Being perfect means without one speck of sin, Job had sin, Original sin given to him a birth from Adam and Eve the same as us.

There is no where in Catholic teaching that says Job was saved from Original sin, and never touched by it. If so I never saw it.

Could you show me where it is taught where Job had no original sin? Thanks

 

[rinnie]

Whosever does the will of the father is my mother .

Yes, anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.

Now lets take this scripture in context david. What is a Mother, sister, brother, etc, A family is it not.

Anyone who does the will of God are all one family. We are all made up of the family of Christ.

Now just in case the implication is that Jesus is saying all of the Mothers in the crowd are the Blessed Mother, how unreal, but who knows, Jesus is not saying that.

And if the implication is that his brothers are Children of the Blessed Mother that also is not true.

Do the work, we must learn our faith in able to understand it,

Todays homework, what are near relations, cousins called in Hebr, and Aramac style? The answer brothers! We all get an A for the day!

 

[Patavium]

St. Jerome on the perpetual virginity of Mary

m.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.vi.v.html

cin.org/users/james/files/helvidiu.htm

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;9459543:

I did not know that Job was perfect. Job was righteous in his faith in God, I believe. But if Job were perfect he would not have died.

Being righteous and perfect are 2 very different things. Being perfect means without one speck of sin, Job had sin, Original sin given to him a birth from Adam and Eve the same as us.

There is no where in Catholic teaching that says Job was saved from Original sin, and never touched by it. If so I never saw it.

Could you show me where it is taught where Job had no original sin? Thanks

Never said Job was free from it .,rather God never said that ,only that he was perfect.I am not saying it,God said he was perfect , at least in the kjv translation.

 

[rinnie]

Saint Epherm of Syria testified that the Immaculate Conception was a comonplace of the Early Church in the Fouth century.

St. Ausustine did the same in the fifth century.

It seems senseless to argue the point any longer. If you will not accept the testimony of the Early Saints whose testimony will you except?

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;9460469:

Never said Job was free from it .,rather God never said that ,only that he was perfect.I am not saying it,God said he was perfect , at least in the kjv translation.

The New Jerusalem Bible says a sound and honest Man who fears God and shuns evil.

In the New American Bible its says faultless and upright fearing God and avoiding evil.

Also blameless and upright. I do not see this as being perfect.

Once again I do not go by the protestant teaching nor translation.

 

[rinnie]

In Revelation the ancient sepent attacks the NEW EVE because the porphecy of Genesis 3:15 is fresh in his memory.

The NEW EVE however appears prevailing over evil, unlike her long-ago type in the garden.

Now how could the Blessed Mother appear prevailing over evil is she has sin?

 

[rinnie]

There is also testimony of Justin Martyr’s Dialogue with Trypho written around160.

The Dialogue describes conversations Justin had with a rabbi around 135 in Ephesus the city where Justin was instructed in the Christian faith.

According to tradition Ephesus was also the city where the APOSTLE John lived WITH the Virgin Mary.

Justins doctrine of the New Eve resonates with that of JOHN HIMSELF and is evidence of Mariology developed by Johnn as bishop of Ephesus and cnotinue by his disciple in Justins day.

Which is a little more then a generation after the Apostles death.

I don’t see where any more testimony could be possibly be needed or more clear.

Now we are talking about the Apostle John here.

 

[rinnie]

You know david the bible says all nations will call me Bless-ed.
I do believe thats what the Protestant bible says also. But can’t be sure.

But any how the word of God says that, and yet the majority of the Protestants call her not Bless-ed but SINNER

Some things in this world you just can’t explain or grasp. That is one of them for myself.

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;9460642:

The New Jerusalem Bible says a sound and honest Man who fears God and shuns evil.

In the New American Bible its says faultless and upright fearing God and avoiding evil.

Also blameless and upright. I do not see this as being perfect.

Once again I do not go by the protestant teaching nor translation.

Ok ,but he definitely was at enmity with the devil,as was Eve and Mary.So “faultness”, avoiding evil, are not the same as sinless ? What is your definition of “faultness” ? Since when does faultless mean imperfect ??? Are you sure there are no Catholic bibles translating Job as being perfect ?

 

[david_ruiz]

[From what I have seen, Daivd is having a hard time staying consistent

. That is funny, some here have correctly and kindly said I am quite consistently stubborn.
[/QUOTE]

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;9459543:

I did not know that Job was perfect. Job was righteous in his faith in God, I believe. But if Job were perfect he would not have died.

Being righteous and perfect are 2 very different things. Being perfect means without one speck of sin, Job had sin, Original sin given to him a birth from Adam and Eve the same as us.

There is no where in Catholic teaching that says Job was saved from Original sin, and never touched by it. If so I never saw it.

Could you show me where it is taught where Job had no original sin? Thanks

You contradict the Lord’s words about Job.You say faultlees,perfect means with sin ???