Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary

[david_ruiz]

Yes, anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.

Now lets take this scripture in context david. What is a Mother, sister, brother, etc, A family is it not.

Anyone who does the will of God are all one family. We are all made up of the family of Christ.

Now just in case the implication is that Jesus is saying all of the Mothers in the crowd are the Blessed Mother, how unreal, but who knows, Jesus is not saying that.

And if the implication is that his brothers are Children of the Blessed Mother that also is not true.

Do the work, we must learn our faith in able to understand it,

Todays homework, what are near relations, cousins called in Hebr, and Aramac style? The answer brothers! We all get an A for the day!

The Holy Scripture was written in Greek ,where there is a word for cousins and for brother .The Lord chose “brother”, not “cousin”. The inspired word was written in Greek, not Aramaic. Scripture was not mistaken when written .

 

[david_ruiz]

In Revelation the ancient sepent attacks the NEW EVE because the porphecy of Genesis 3:15 is fresh in his memory.

The NEW EVE however appears prevailing over evil, unlike her long-ago type in the garden.

Now how could the Blessed Mother appear prevailing over evil is she has sin?

Brother Rinnie , I am sure we both have sinned, yet we prevail in and with faith and will prevail by his grace. to the end. If it is to the end ,we too will have prevailed ,will we have not ? And over sin and death and the gates of hell.

 

[Patavium]

David, again becomes an argument of your own interpretation of verses in the bible.

How come your interpretation doesn’t agree with the Church Fathers on Eve and Mary?

or that the Church Fathers didn’t believe that Mary had other children, but you do?

I wonder. You say you are protestant. Your views agree with which brethren of the reformation?

You have to ask yourself, and think very deeply about this: What is theologically accurate to you? What the Early Church Fathers believed (some even taught by the apostles themselves)? What the Reformers believed? or… The Modern day belief of some protestant groups?

 

[Nicea325]

The Holy Scripture was written in Greek ,where there is a word for cousins and for brother .The Lord chose “brother”, not “cousin”. The inspired word was written in Greek, not Aramaic. Scripture was not mistaken when written .

Wrong! Written in Greek but translated from Aramaic. Jesus spoke and taught in Aramaic,not in Greek. And second of all, you applying the modern sense and understanding of the term “brother” to mean as in blood related. The term brother also referred to clansmen,not necessarily a blood relative. What tribe did Jesus come from? So no Scripture is not mistaken,but you most certainly are mistaken.

 

[brumano]

rinnie;9460469:

Never said Job was free from it .,rather God never said that ,only that he was perfect.I am not saying it,God said he was perfect , at least in the kjv translation.

I don’t have the word perfect in two of my bibles either, I’ll have to check some more but I have to ask what edition kjv your getting these convictions of yours from, and who published it. Your post sent up a red flare about 25 pages ago about Job being called perfect by God, it’s just not compatible with the rest of Job. Jb.7,11 thru 21 Job speaks brazenly to God, he does not restrain his tongue, 11v6,and13thru15, Job is allowing his family to live unrighteously and one or more of his children has cursed God. Jb.13v26 or as some Bibles say ~the sin of my youth, I could go on but should we really have to, there isn’t even a single protestant that’s going to agree with you that Job was perfect in the judgement of God.

Let’s look at a very interesting question that pertains to the subject of this thresd that is in Job. Read 14esp.v4. Now 25v4. The answer to this is in fact yes, such a man was born but He could only have been born from a perfectly clean woman; if not, by Job, Jesus was not perfect either.

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;9460469:

You contradict the Lord’s words about Job.You say faultlees,perfect means with sin ???

no I said faultless does not mean perfect. Where was original sin the fault of Job? I never said that. But Job was born into original sin from Adam and Eve.

 

[rinnie]

Brother Rinnie , I am sure we both have sinned, yet we prevail in and with faith and will prevail by his grace. to the end. If it is to the end ,we too will have prevailed ,will we have not ? And over sin and death and the gates of hell.

Well to begin with I am a Sister But yep, I agree we both sinned. But what does us sinning have to do with the Blessed Mother never sinning.

She is made perfect by God at the moment of her conception. I wasn’t, Job wasn’t neither were you.

St John who lived and took care of the Mother also taught this. So now you have a Apostles of God, a testimony witnessing this, what more do you want david?

 

[rinnie]

Brother Rinnie , I am sure we both have sinned, yet we prevail in and with faith and will prevail by his grace. to the end. If it is to the end ,we too will have prevailed ,will we have not ? And over sin and death and the gates of hell.

Brother david what does us prevailing in faith have to do with the Blessed Mother prevailing over sin though?

Have you prevailed over sin? I have not. I was born into original sin, and prevail not over actual sin, actually prevail in it at times I am ashamed to say.

 

[kellerk]

. That is funny, some here have correctly and kindly said I am quite consistently stubborn.

it’s true!!! I can vouch for that! I feel for you David, taking on all these objections in stride, and always remaining respectful…thank you for that. I have been in your shoes and it’s not a comfortable position to be in.

 

[kellerk]

The Holy Scripture was written in Greek ,where there is a word for cousins and for brother .The Lord chose “brother”, not “cousin”. The inspired word was written in Greek, not Aramaic. Scripture was not mistaken when written .

I’m not sure but i believe this has been covered…wasn’t it stated that they decided to translate using the same styles as was used in the Aramaic language, which was the language used by our Lord. That clearly explains why the Greek words weren’t replaced because they could not be sure what they actually meant in Aramaic…please correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[adrift]

I’m not sure but i believe this has been covered…wasn’t it stated that they decided to translate using the same styles as was used in the Aramaic language, which was the language used by our Lord. That clearly explains why the Greek words weren’t replaced because they could not be sure what they actually meant in Aramaic…please correct me if I’m wrong.

I think you are right.

 

[david_ruiz]

Well to begin with I am a Sister But yep, I agree we both sinned. But what does us sinning have to do with the Blessed Mother never sinning.

She is made perfect by God at the moment of her conception. I wasn’t, Job wasn’t neither were you.

St John who lived and took care of the Mother also taught this. So now you have a Apostles of God, a testimony witnessing this, what more do you want david?

Sorry sister. Anyways , we were talking about prevailing against the devil meaning not sinning ever. It is said Mary prevailed. It is said she could not prevail and sin.Fine , if it is because you believe it(her sinlessness)already .Otherwise I put forth she , like we, can prevail without being sinless. Another words ,my views on Mary are in harmony with revelations and the woman prevailing ,if you believe it to be Mary .Revelations in itself does not tell me she had to be sinless

 

[david_ruiz]

I’m not sure but i believe this has been covered…wasn’t it stated that they decided to translate using the same styles as was used in the Aramaic language, which was the language used by our Lord. That clearly explains why the Greek words weren’t replaced because they could not be sure what they actually meant in Aramaic…please correct me if I’m wrong.

I wouldn’t put it exactly like that-the idea that one is "not sure’ when writing by the inspiration of the holy Ghost . Nicea is correct that "brother " can mean brother ,or relative or kinsmen . The meaning ,which one is meant, must be discerned from the context. If Jesus is addressing a Jewish village he might say brethren,meaning kinsmen. If one says Jesus brethren it may mean extended family or immediate .If one says his mother and brethren,being more specific already with “mother” it may mean actual brothers .It must be remembered kinsmen and cousin can always be used also .For instance we know Jesus and John were cousins because it pretty much says so-Mary and Elizabeth were cousins.Elizabeth had “neighbors” and "kindred’. The aramaic which had more limited vocabulary in this area ,still can be accurate by the context.I do not believe they didn’t know which was being inferred when the term “brethren” was used… I would think one reading scripture would render brethren for for brothers apart from any doctrines on Mary .It is only when these doctrines are considered does one put them in a different context .Another words ,does Marion doctrine interpret “brethren” or should “brethren” form Marion doctrine .If one already believes Mary to be ever virgin then of course one must render brethren not to mean siblings.

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;9460642:

I don’t have the word perfect in two of my bibles either, I’ll have to check some more but I have to ask what edition kjv your getting these convictions of yours from, and who published it. Your post sent up a red flare about 25 pages ago about Job being called perfect by God, it’s just not compatible with the rest of Job. Jb.7,11 thru 21 Job speaks brazenly to God, he does not restrain his tongue, 11v6,and13thru15, Job is allowing his family to live unrighteously and one or more of his children has cursed God. Jb.13v26 or as some Bibles say ~the sin of my youth, I could go on but should we really have to, there isn’t even a single protestant that’s going to agree with you that Job was perfect in the judgement of God.

Let’s look at a very interesting question that pertains to the subject of this thresd that is in Job. Read 14esp.v4. Now 25v4. The answer to this is in fact yes, such a man was born but He could only have been born from a perfectly clean woman; if not, by Job, Jesus was not perfect either.

I only repeated scripture on Job being perfect .I have not talked about what that means ,as you have wonderfully started. All these scriptures must be put together ,in harmony .Just as you have done it to show that Job was "perfect’ or faultless yet a fallen (sinner)human.putting many scriptures in harmony. Just as you do it with Job ,one can do it with Mary .She is perfect ,even though she is a fallen (sinner) human.

 

[RobbyS]

I wouldn’t put it exactly like that-the idea that one is "not sure’ when writing by the inspiration of the holy Ghost . Nicea is correct that "brother " can mean brother ,or relative or kinsmen . The meaning ,which one is meant, must be discerned from the context. If Jesus is addressing a Jewish village he might say brethren,meaning kinsmen. If one says Jesus brethren it may mean extended family or immediate .If one says his mother and brethren,being more specific already with “mother” it may mean actual brothers .It must be remembered kinsmen and cousin can always be used also .For instance we know Jesus and John were cousins because it pretty much says so-Mary and Elizabeth were cousins.Elizabeth had “neighbors” and "kindred’. The aramaic which had more limited vocabulary in this area ,still can be accurate by the context.I do not believe they didn’t know which was being inferred when the term “brethren” was used… I would think one reading scripture would render brethren for for brothers apart from any doctrines on Mary .It is only when these doctrines are considered does one put them in a different context .Another words ,does Marion doctrine interpret “brethren” or should “brethren” form Marion doctrine .If one already believes Mary to be ever virgin then of course one must render brethren not to mean siblings.

One can understand the Protestant desire to relate all doctrine to Scripture. This because The New Testament is a historical document, and doctrines such as the immaculate conception can seem very derivative. With regard to the question of the “brothers and siisters” of Jesus, the New Testament is ambiguous.perhaps because its immediate audience knew precisely what he meant, but we cannot find this out just from the text. Every man who is called a brother can be connected with another woman. Name are just tossed off without really identifying them. So the written word is unclear. At some point we have to resort to some source outside the Scripture.

 

[rinnie]

brumano;9462508:

I only repeated scripture on Job being perfect .I have not talked about what that means ,as you have wonderfully started. All these scriptures must be put together ,in harmony .Just as you have done it to show that Job was "perfect’ or faultless yet a fallen (sinner)human.putting many scriptures in harmony. Just as you do it with Job ,one can do it with Mary .She is perfect ,even though she is a fallen (sinner) human.

Funny how protestants love to show the scripture that ALL have sinned. Especially when you feel it works to condemn the Mother of Christ.

And then take a scripture about Job and say he was perfect

I don’t get it, you will stick up for Job, which by the way of disagree with, because that is not what my scripture says, but yet the scripture for the Blessed Mother is quite clear stating alll generations will call me Blessed.

Well the Catholic Church sure will! Protestants can say she is not Blessed and a sinner, but never the CC.

If the Blessed Mother is perfect as you claim yet fallen in human nature, you would have to say the same about Jesus Christ. If she could not be saved then how do you explain Jesus did not inherit the fallen nature also. Jesus was human and divine you know.

So how was his human nature not fallen if his Mothers was?

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;9460469:

You contradict the Lord’s words about Job.You say faultlees,perfect means with sin ???

How? Baby;s are born with original sin and faultless and born with sin, How is that in conflict with the word of God.

The CC teaches you cannot have Actual sin until the age of reason. So are you saying yes they can? That a newborn infant born into this world for lets say 5 seconds can actually commit actual sin? How?

 

[rinnie]

rinnie;9460899:

Ok ,but he definitely was at enmity with the devil,as was Eve and Mary.So “faultness”, avoiding evil, are not the same as sinless ? What is your definition of “faultness” ? Since when does faultless mean imperfect ??? Are you sure there are no Catholic bibles translating Job as being perfect ?

You continue to say this, But you refuse to explain how Eve was faultless. Can you explain this, How was she faultless?

The devil told her to eat from the tree, she said God told me not to. The devil said do it. How can it be anyones fault other then Eves for turning AGAINST God and turning to the devil and going to his side? Are you sayiing Eve did not know NOT to eat? Or are you saying the devil shoved it down her throat?

Then you say there was emnity between them? How she did what he asked, she did not disobey the devil. she was on his side.

Then the Blessed Mother was the opposite, She wanted NOTHING to do with the devil. He knew he could not even tempt her because of her Love for God, He could not even get near her, because she was so close to God.

So lets begin with Eve she told the devil, God said if I ate I would die. Death of the soul david. that iwhat SIN IS.

Now show me where the Blessed Mother died, show me where she sinned and had death of the soul? And please show me where EVE was faultless. How do you come up with that?

Because I am dying to know this. Because if Eve is faultless in her sin, we are all off the hook.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pablope,

St. Catherine is an excellent example of what zeal combined with humble obedience can accomplish. She lived over 100 years before Luther was born - she faced a more internally divided (multiple popes) Church then Luther ever experienced - and she prayed to God to be an instrument for unity - and her prayers are answered. Had Luther followed her example - with the Grace of God we would be calling him ‘St. Martin Luther’ today! But, zeal, political power and recognition and a hubris that rivaled that of Ancient Greek heros - simply consumed him. The man spun out of control - and, sadly, caused others to follow him over the edge.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rinnie,

It looks to me like Dave’s lack of appropriate responses to these basic questions is taking on a life of its own. In my view, the only conclusion that can be drawn is that he can not suppport the statements he has made.

Eve was created without sin - and with free will. She, though sinless, freely chose to disobey God - and is guilty of the First Sin - followed moments later by her husband who, although also created sinless - and will an equally free will - chose to disobey God … and then demonstrated real strength of character by blaming his wife!

Mary was conceived sinless - and with a free will - and she chose to love and honor God. The Blessed Virgin set the example for true obedience to God - and she is there to help us all - who ask for her help - follow in this example. The words that she gave to the stewards at the wedding in Cana, “Do whatever He tells you” are just as true for us to follow today.

God bless

david ruiz;9461783:

You continue to say this, But you refuse to explain how Eve was faultless. Can you explain this, How was she faultless?

The devil told her to eat from the tree, she said God told me not to. The devil said do it. How can it be anyones fault other then Eves for turning AGAINST God and turning to the devil and going to his side? Are you sayiing Eve did not know NOT to eat? Or are you saying the devil shoved it down her throat?

Then you say there was emnity between them? How she did what he asked, she did not disobey the devil. she was on his side.

Then the Blessed Mother was the opposite, She wanted NOTHING to do with the devil. He knew he could not even tempt her because of her Love for God, He could not even get near her, because she was so close to God.

So lets begin with Eve she told the devil, God said if I ate I would die. Death of the soul david. that iwhat SIN IS.

Now show me where the Blessed Mother died, show me where she sinned and had death of the soul? And please show me where EVE was faultless. How do you come up with that?

Because I am dying to know this. Because if Eve is faultless in her sin, we are all off the hook.