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Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary
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RobbyS
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RIP.
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RobbyS
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The NT was addressed to an audience that had more personal knowledge of the persons and events than we can ever have. It relates the names of the brothers of the Lord to women other than Mary, the mother of the Lord. Not even tradition tells us about the relationship of these women to Jesus. I know about the finding of Biblical scholars, but it seems to me more likely that most already existed in some form or another by 60 AD.
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wheels10
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GaryTaylor
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My Condolences, my prayers are with you!
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david_ruiz
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Sorry rinnie-no de-rail, it is the rail. Condolences to you and her family.
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RobbyS
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I notion that Joseph was also a virgin seems to me to be like some marian devotions a step too far, so far that it loses contact what is essential. One can imagine all kinds of things about Joseph. The Bible tells us so little that we can make up all kinds of stories about him. But what we do know is that he was a man–an ordinary man–who found himself confronted by the totally inexplicable and after some hesitation, accepted it all as God’s will. How could he ever again look at Mary as just another woman? How could he ever again regard Jesus as just another child? I take that back. Jesus probably behaved like any other boy, since he was a boy, except he never crossed the lines that all other boys did. Not all children are alike. Some are gifted in ways that makes our mouths hang open. And this was the supremely gifted boy. Time and again Joseph must have been brought back to the realization that he had a mission, a mission to guard this treasure–and his mother. And do nothing to give away the secret. He had to defer to this child, and to the child’s mother, as a servant must defer to the heir and the heir’s mother, but not seem to do so. As I said, one can imagine many things.
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tqualey
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Hi, RobbyS,
I think this was a very insightful post!
Joseph had a truly unique role - and one that all husbands/fathers can look to for strength and support.
God bless
I think this was a very insightful post!
Joseph had a truly unique role - and one that all husbands/fathers can look to for strength and support.God bless
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Cat_Herder
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Ugh.
[BIBLEDRB]1 Tim 2:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]
The reason why some people don’t have the Truth is not because God doesn’t want to give it to them, but because they don’t want to accept it!
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GaryTaylor
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Wisdom
1:13 For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.
1:14 For he created all things, that they might have their being: and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor the kingdom of death upon the earth (For righteousness is immortal
1:13 For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.
1:14 For he created all things, that they might have their being: and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor the kingdom of death upon the earth (For righteousness is immortal
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tqualey
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Hi, GaryTaylor,
Sunday’s First Reading and Gospel were especially appropraite to this thread, in my opinion. Not only do we see the Power of God, but also His compassion in the miracles identified in Mark 5.
God bless
Sunday’s First Reading and Gospel were especially appropraite to this thread, in my opinion. Not only do we see the Power of God, but also His compassion in the miracles identified in Mark 5.
God bless
Wisdom
1:13 For God made not death: neither hath he pleasure in the destruction of the living.
1:14 For he created all things, that they might have their being: and the generations of the world were healthful; and there is no poison of destruction in them, nor the kingdom of death upon the earth (For righteousness is immortal
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GaryTaylor
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Ha, observant Tom, thats what made immediately think of it.
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david_ruiz
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Umm please follow thread. We were talking if the certain promises of Holy Spirit were for apostles and not lay people. But thank-you for your scriptures , for do they apply to all followers /disciples of Christ.
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david_ruiz
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brumano
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Mt.1v20 c2v13,14,19,20,and 21 support your view on the most chaste espousal of St Joseph and Mary; in all these verses the angel in the dream tells him what to do with the child and his mother not your wife and the boy or anything like that.
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tqualey
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Hi, David Ruiz,
I see you are back to just giving us your opinion without benefit of any reference.
Well, let’s look at the easy stuff first: St. Jerome had nothing to do with this - he lived well before the Protestant revolt. I think you will find that 30,000+ is supportable: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations - but, you will have to back up your claim to 50,000…or were you just shooting yourself in the foot again?
When the Old Testament (first part of the Bible) was origianally written - it was not written in Greek - in fact, Greek as a language did not exist at that time. The language of the OT was primarily Hebrew, with some Aramai(Ezra 4:8-6:18, 7:12-26; Daniel chapters 2-7, and one verse in Jeremiah) Here is a link: sa-hebroots.com/ISBE%20-%20Languages%20of%20the%20Old%20Testament.pdfk So, are you implying that the OT was not inspired because it was not in Greek?
If by ‘done deal’ you mean that the Canon of Scripture is closed - you’re right. But, the ‘dictating’ comes from personal interpretation of Scripture which is specifically condemned in 2Peter 1:20-21
**Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
**
The R-D commentary on this is of interest and I would recommend that you read this for yourself. Here is the link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/2_Peter_1
And, truly, your insistance on ‘personal interpretations’ as the only way things can be had because we are dealing with persons is to drive literalism straight into the ground as all meaning is pounded out. It is the Holy Spirit that is inspiring these ‘persons’ who are united to the Church and speaking with the authority of the Holy Spirit. Now the various and contradictory demonstrations of confusion we see today - the latest being how God now approves of homosexual behavior.
Now you can speak for Luther? Calivn, too? The Rosary was a developed prayer at least 300 years before Luther born Here is a link: erosary.com/rosary/about/history.htm I think it is a fair statement that when young Martin was in training with the Augustinian monks, he prayed the Rosary.
In brief, you have again merely presented what honestly appears to be not only a biased opinion but one not well illuminated by history or fact or even scholarship. You really need to try harder for what you are presenting simply seems to be the result of deficient Catechesis.
God bless
I see you are back to just giving us your opinion without benefit of any reference.
Well, let’s look at the easy stuff first: St. Jerome had nothing to do with this - he lived well before the Protestant revolt. I think you will find that 30,000+ is supportable: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations - but, you will have to back up your claim to 50,000…or were you just shooting yourself in the foot again?
When the Old Testament (first part of the Bible) was origianally written - it was not written in Greek - in fact, Greek as a language did not exist at that time. The language of the OT was primarily Hebrew, with some Aramai(Ezra 4:8-6:18, 7:12-26; Daniel chapters 2-7, and one verse in Jeremiah) Here is a link: sa-hebroots.com/ISBE%20-%20Languages%20of%20the%20Old%20Testament.pdfk So, are you implying that the OT was not inspired because it was not in Greek?
If by ‘done deal’ you mean that the Canon of Scripture is closed - you’re right. But, the ‘dictating’ comes from personal interpretation of Scripture which is specifically condemned in 2Peter 1:20-21
**Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
**
The R-D commentary on this is of interest and I would recommend that you read this for yourself. Here is the link: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/2_Peter_1
And, truly, your insistance on ‘personal interpretations’ as the only way things can be had because we are dealing with persons is to drive literalism straight into the ground as all meaning is pounded out. It is the Holy Spirit that is inspiring these ‘persons’ who are united to the Church and speaking with the authority of the Holy Spirit. Now the various and contradictory demonstrations of confusion we see today - the latest being how God now approves of homosexual behavior.
Now you can speak for Luther? Calivn, too? The Rosary was a developed prayer at least 300 years before Luther born Here is a link: erosary.com/rosary/about/history.htm I think it is a fair statement that when young Martin was in training with the Augustinian monks, he prayed the Rosary.
In brief, you have again merely presented what honestly appears to be not only a biased opinion but one not well illuminated by history or fact or even scholarship. You really need to try harder for what you are presenting simply seems to be the result of deficient Catechesis.
God bless
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brumano
Guest
I think there’s one fundamental problem with the way you view the revealation of Mary, you suppose a theory that really is abstract and that is that God did as He could have done in being born, not as He actually did in being born of Mary Ever Virgin. God could of course have done everything including the protestant view, an infinite number of ways but there is only one way that He has done as He was pleased to do. So it is His doing, and His will that is not really for us to decide beyond a certain point of faithful reasoning, but to accept. That’s really what Catholicism is all about, not endless questioning but acceptance of the answers: Lkc1v34. How shall this be since I know no man? Lkc1v37! Lkc1v38 Behold the handmaid of the Lord be it done unto me according to thy word.
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david_ruiz
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david_ruiz
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Thank-you . May I respond on two levels ? First an opposing view is not a question ,it is a view. I have come to an acceptance of the truth as I believe the Lord has shown me. We both "accept our positions as truthful. There is no “endless questioning”. Secondly , if one is brought up and taught a prevailing truth , I see no dishonor for making it your own , and not just because it was taught you, or bequeathed to you at say infant baptism . Indeed that is part of the rationale behind Confirmation, to accept something you must deny the opposite .You must have at least looked at the question. I believe the Lord honors honest asking/questioning of spoon fed beliefs, that is putting opposing views when first heard , before Him. So to recap , no, we no longer question these particular issues , but also that it is not wrong to ask to be fully persuaded personally on any given matter.
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tqualey
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Hi, David Ruiz,
Just a couple items … more housekeeping then anything else…
There may be “5-6” Protestant denominiations … just like there may be 5-6 elements in the Periodic Table. 5-6 is just a start. You may want to drive by some strip malls and look at the store-front churches claiming to be ‘whole gospel’ and ‘spirit filled’ and lead by Pastor ‘X’ and his wife. Then we get to the ‘independent’ and ‘non-denominational’ mega churches. Seriously David - you hve no way to back up 5-6 … and laugh if you want at Wiki - you have not provided anything to back up your claim. By the way, your browser isn’t broken is it?
The truth of the matter is that mainly because of Sola Scriptura (Luther’s contribution to the revolt) combined with private interpretation (you did read that section from 2Peter, eh?) we have everyone and his brother claiming to be inspired and arguing that their interpretation is correct - after all the Holy Spirit told them it was…
Now, multiply that single kind of error by … 30,000 and you will find all the division in Protestantism you would ever want to find. Doctrinally, this is simply chaos - and you will note that in Matt 16, Christ did not tell Peter that ‘churches’ would be built on him - Christ used the singular for a reason.
In John 6 Christ used the concept of eating ‘Real Food’ over and over again - this is no analogy. Really, Dave, the Jews who wanted to kill Christ at least undeerstood what He was talking about - really eating His Flesh - and they walked away and rejected His Word and you claim to be doing now.
By the way, speaking of Luther - I seriously recommend you read this item form Luther himself on Mary: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=788. I think you will be quite surprised … and actually want to retract your previous statements…
Now that is just a suggestion, after reading it, however, I think you will find it quite different then how you portrayed Luther.
God bless
Just a couple items … more housekeeping then anything else…
There may be “5-6” Protestant denominiations … just like there may be 5-6 elements in the Periodic Table. 5-6 is just a start. You may want to drive by some strip malls and look at the store-front churches claiming to be ‘whole gospel’ and ‘spirit filled’ and lead by Pastor ‘X’ and his wife. Then we get to the ‘independent’ and ‘non-denominational’ mega churches. Seriously David - you hve no way to back up 5-6 … and laugh if you want at Wiki - you have not provided anything to back up your claim. By the way, your browser isn’t broken is it?
The truth of the matter is that mainly because of Sola Scriptura (Luther’s contribution to the revolt) combined with private interpretation (you did read that section from 2Peter, eh?) we have everyone and his brother claiming to be inspired and arguing that their interpretation is correct - after all the Holy Spirit told them it was…
Now, multiply that single kind of error by … 30,000 and you will find all the division in Protestantism you would ever want to find. Doctrinally, this is simply chaos - and you will note that in Matt 16, Christ did not tell Peter that ‘churches’ would be built on him - Christ used the singular for a reason.In John 6 Christ used the concept of eating ‘Real Food’ over and over again - this is no analogy. Really, Dave, the Jews who wanted to kill Christ at least undeerstood what He was talking about - really eating His Flesh - and they walked away and rejected His Word and you claim to be doing now.
By the way, speaking of Luther - I seriously recommend you read this item form Luther himself on Mary: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=788. I think you will be quite surprised … and actually want to retract your previous statements…
Now that is just a suggestion, after reading it, however, I think you will find it quite different then how you portrayed Luther.God bless
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