Protestants: Why a Symbolic Eucharist?

[Metaron]

I second what Gabriel of 12 stated. You should show proofs of your position, instead of feebly attempting to disprove the Church’s and Gabriel of 12’s position.

 

[cascherman]

I’m grasping at straws? Post anything you want from the ECF concerning “true presence, real presence, spiritual food,” and the other titles and theories bandied around. There never was “unanimous consent” until the church said “it’s transubstantiation, end of discussion.”

How would I prove a unanimous consent? You want a quote from every early Christian supporting real presence? That, I feel, is the only thing that would satisfy you when it comes down to unanimous consent. The prominent early Christians at the time all speak of Christ’s true body and blood, yet you beg for an infallible article from the Pope on true body and blood, and I think you won’t find one because it wasn’t threatened just like the words of the bishop of Rome were not threatened as false like they are now. Unless you can find me ONE quote explicitly stating that communion was a symbol ONLY.
sandusky;3355042:

What drives you nuts, IMHO, is that others can read the scripture, the ECFs, and church history, and arrive at a different conclusion than you. Deal with it.

First off, I hated it when I read the ECFs as a protestant and had this feeling in my stomach like I’ve been wrong this whole time (and holy cow! my wife was right). I begged for a refuting explanation as to why so many early Christians spouted Catholic ideas.

 

[SyCarl]

In the Bread of Life discourse in John 6 Jesus says a number of things.

“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.” (John 6:51 NASB)

"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:54 NASB)

These are unequivocal promises that anyone who eats His flesh and drinks His blood will have eternal life. There are no qualifications put on the promises; no requirements of faith or belief are given and no requirement is made that one partake in a worthy manner. If transubstantiation is true, then according to these promises all one would have to do to have eternal life is go to a Catholic Mass and partake of the Eucharist. It would not matter that this was done illicitly or without any faith at all; the requirements of the promises would be met.

Jesus says more about eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. (John 6:53 NASB)

Here another unequivocal statement is made telling us that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Unless we do so, nothing else can help us because no exceptions are given to the requirement. Taken together, if interpreted literally, these passages would mean that we could receive eternal life if and only if we eat Jesus’ flesh and drink His blood.

Earlier in John 6 Jesus makes other unequivocal promises.

“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40 NASB)

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. (John 6:47 NASB)

In these promises Jesus tells us that if we believe in Him we will have eternal life. Paul also talks about the Lord’s Supper.

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:27-32 NASB)

In this passage Paul tells us that we must partake in a worthy manner yet Jesus puts no such requirement in his statement. If Jesus’ statements about eating His flesh and drinking His blood are taken literally then those statements contradict what both Jesus and Paul say elsewhere. However, Scripture cannot contradict itself so Jesus must not be speaking literally of eating His flesh and drinking His blood. What then does Jesus mean?

It can be seen that He makes two very similar statements, “everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." and "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. “ It is apparent that Jesus is speaking figuratively and that eating His flesh and drinking His blood is equivalent to believing in Him. Is such figurative speaking consistent with Jesus’ other teaching?

It can be seen that throughout John’s Gospel Jesus does frequently speak figuratively. In fact, He says so Himself.

"These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; an hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father. (John 16:25 NASB)

 

[SyCarl]

Another characteristic of Jesus’ teaching in John’s gospel is the repeated use of the phrase “I am the”.

1. The bread of life.

Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. (John 6:35 NASB)

1. The light of the world

Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, “I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.” (John 8:12 NASB)

1. The door of the sheep

So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. (John 10:7 NASB)

1. The good shepherd

"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. (John 10:11 NASB)

1. The resurrection and the life

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26 NASB)

1. The way, the truth and the life

Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. (John 14:6 NASB)

1. The true vine

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. (John 15:1 NASB)

It is clear that many of these statements are figurative since Jesus is not literally a door or a vine. The statement “I am the bread of life” fits into the pattern that Jesus established of speaking about Himself figuratively.

It is claimed that Jesus knew his listeners believed He was speaking literally and that, if He had not been, He would have corrected them. However, in John, there are several places where the hearers misunderstand Jesus yet He does not correct them.

1. The Jews in the temple

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. (John 2:19-21 NASB)

The Gospel writer explains but Jesus does not.

1. Nicodemus

Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” (John 3:3-4 NASB)

Nicodemus does not understand even after Jesus talks to him more.

1. The Samaritan woman

Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” She *said to Him, "Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water? (John 4:10-11 NASB)

1. The Jews in the temple

Therefore Jesus said, "For a little while longer I am with you, then I go to Him who sent Me. “You will seek Me, and will not find Me; and where I am, you cannot come.” The Jews then said to one another, "Where does this man intend to go that we will not find Him? He is not intending to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks, is He? (John 7:33-35 NASB)

1. The Jews in the temple

Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.” So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” (John 8:21-22 NASB)

However, Jesus does ask his disciples about their understanding.

But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. (John 6:61-63 NASB)

Jesus asks them what they would think of His statement if they saw Him ascending to Heaven. If He is in Heaven then His disciples could not physically eat His flesh or drink His blood. He then tells them His words are spirit and the Apostles understand with Peter replying:

Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. “We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” (John 6:68-69 NASB)

That Peter answers this way is important in the context of the passage as a whole. Jesus has just been talking about being the bread of life and about the necessity of them eating Him. However, Peter does not refer to bread; he refers to words and belief, understanding the equivalence of eating and believing in the discourse.

 

[SyCarl]

Finally with respect to John 6, it should be recognized that Jesus tells us:

Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. (John 6:35 NASB)

Earlier in John, Jesus tells us what He gives us that we would never thirst.

Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” (John 4:13-14 NASB)

It is not blood or wine that cause us never to thirst; it is the living water.

Is a non-literal reading of the bread of life discourse consistent other Scriptural passages dealing with the Lord’s Supper? Each of the three synoptic Gospels describes the institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper.

While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.” (Matthew 26:26-29 NASB)

While they were eating, He took some bread, and after a blessing He broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is My body.” And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. “Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” (Mark 14:22-25 NASB)

When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him. And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.” And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. (Luke 22:14-20 NASB)

In Matthew’s account Jesus still refers to the wine “as fruit of the vine” even after the words of consecration. This would be consistent with a non-literal interpretation as, in this statement, He is specifically referring to what is in the cup they had all shared as still being wine.

In both Mark’s and Luke’s account the cup is passed around and the Apostles drink from it prior to Jesus speaking the words of consecration. Thus they are also consistent with a non-literal reading since the drinking was done prior to anything that would have changed the substance of the wine.

 

[SyCarl]

Outside of the Gospels the major reference to the Lord’s Supper is by Paul in 1 Corinthians 11.

Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you. For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you will not come together for judgment. The remaining matters I will arrange when I come. (1 Corinthians 11:20-34 NASB)

Here Paul uses words of consecration similar to those found in the Gospel accounts. He then goes on to elaborate about the manner of eating. In his discussion, whenever he refers to what is eaten, Paul refers to it as bread and the cup. He does use “the body and the blood of the Lord” when referring to those who eat the bread and drink the cup unworthily. However, he does not apply these words to what is actually eaten and drunk; he still refers to those as the bread and the cup. What then does Paul mean when he says we shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord? Paul speaks of judging several times in the verses following the comment about being guilty if we eat and drink unworthily. He tells us that we must examine ourselves since we drink judgment to ourselves if we do not judge the body rightly. It is apparent here that he is talking about us judging our own condition when he refers to judging the body rightly, coming as it does right after the direction to examine ourselves. It is followed by a statement again referring to the judging of our own condition. It does not mean failure to recognize the bread as being the Lord’s body. This is also clear from the fact that when Paul describes the effects of eating unworthily he refers to our relationship with one another, not the nature of the elements. Paul is basically telling us that we must be right with one another when we partake of the Supper. If we are not then we denigrate the Lord’s sacrifice which we are remembering. It is similar to crucifying the Lord again as found in Hebrews.

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB)

Finally, while the Jewish dietary laws do not apply anymore, the Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem did impose restrictions on what could be eaten.

“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.” (Acts 15:28-29 NASB)

Would we have been told not to eat blood is this was contrary to Jesus’ direction with respect to the Eucharist?

 

[VARC]

Your forgetting the most important passage about the eucharist.
Our Lord said “This is my body” He did not say that “bread is my body” in some kind of parable. He held the bread and said “this”. So your response is “yeah he said that but he really didn’t mean that”. What a firm foundation you stand upon.

 

[Metaron]

Your forgetting the most important passage about the eucharist.
Our Lord said “This is my body” He did not say that “bread is my body” in some kind of parable. He held the bread and said “this”. So your response is “yeah he said that but he really didn’t mean that”. What a firm foundation you stand upon.

Exactly, He said, “This **IS **My Body.”

Not:

“This symbolises of My Body.”
“This is a metaphor of My Body.”

But, “This [meaning the Bread He was holding] is My Body.”

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hey to those who believe in the bread and grape juice to be a symbol of Jesus body and blood.

Have you heard what paul asks the Corinthians 10:16…The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a particiapation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 11:27,29 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord… For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgement on himself.

Where do you see paul talking symbolically, or drinking grape juice? concerning the body and blood of Jesus Christ? Do you think symbolism can bring Judgment on a soul, or does it have to be the real body and blood of Jesus present in the species of bread and cup of blessing, if taken unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord?

verse 30, that is why many of you are sick and dying. Wow, how can one get sick or die from symbolism of bread and grape juice?

How do symbolic bread and grape juice believers translate St. Pauls message here about what he calls the body and blood of the Lord?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Heres a question that symbolic believers dont ask often, how does the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus?

Tennis anyone??

 

[Metaron]

Hey to those who believe in the bread and grape juice to be a symbol of Jesus body and blood.

Have you heard what paul asks the Corinthians 10:16…The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a particiapation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Exactly, Gabe.

How can one participate in something that isn’t there? (i.e, Christ’s Body and Blood.)

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Heres a question that symbolic believers dont ask often, how does the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus?

Tennis anyone??

The priest makes Jesus go into the food.



:angel1:

 

[justasking4]

Heres a question that symbolic believers dont ask often, how does the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus?

Tennis anyone??

It doesn’t “become” anything but what it is.

 

[Metaron]

It doesn’t “become” anything but what it is.

So ordinary bread now has the power to damn anyone that partakes of it unworthily???

Sorry, that’s ludicrous.

 

[justasking4]

Metaron;3358219]
Originally Posted by justasking4
It doesn’t “become” anything but what it is.

Metaron
So ordinary bread now has the power to damn anyone that partakes of it unworthily???

Sorry, that’s ludicrous.

The bread in and of itself can do nothing. It has no power to do anything.

 

[Metaron]

The bread in and of itself can do nothing. It has no power to do anything.

So St.Paul just made up that part about profaning the BODY and BLOOD of the Lord? And partaking of the ‘bread’ unworthily?

 

[reform3703]

And where do you get the idea that your “bolded” part of the quotation was about Holy Communion?
That is not what I read here. When Augustine said “sacrifice”, he MEANT “sacrifice”, and not the Communion.

I like your thinking. As Lutherans, we believe that the body and blood of Christ is present anyway. I don’t think this applies so much to us. However, in regards to other protestants, they worship God and they do not defy his laws. Jesus did say “This do in rememberance of me.” So, I don;t think they are doing anything contrary to scripture. They are honoring and rememberng Christ’s sacrifice. Both Catholics and Lutherans simply take communion a step further by honoring transsubstantiation (Catholics) or consubstantiation (Lutherans). That is my understanding as a Missouri Synod Lutheran.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The priest makes Jesus go into the food.



:angel1:

FOA, I dont know whether to laugh or cry from your statement?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

So St.Paul just made up that part about profaning the BODY and BLOOD of the Lord? And partaking of the ‘bread’ unworthily?

Great responses Metaron, makes alot of common sense, what did you do to justasking4?

 

[sandusky]

Your forgetting the most important passage about the eucharist.
Our Lord said “This is my body” He did not say that “bread is my body” in some kind of parable. He held the bread and said “this”. So your response is “yeah he said that but he really didn’t mean that”. What a firm foundation you stand upon.

A metaphor is a declaration that one thing is (or represents) another; or, comparison by representation.

Met´-a-phor. Greek, metaphora, a transference, or carrying over or across. From meta, beyond or over, and pherein, to carry.

The figure is a “Representation” or “Transference.” It is recognized by some form of the verb,
***to be.***I am the door

I am the vine; you are the branches

This is my body…this is my blood

All flesh is grass

My flesh is true food

My blood is true drink

We are the sheep of His pasture

The Lord God is a Sun and Shield

His truth is a shield and buckler

You are the salt of the earthAnd so on.