Protestants: Why Abandon Biblical Worship?

[Matariel]

Worship begins in heaven. The Holy Scriptures record numerous instances of the drama of the heavenly liturgy taking place before the very throne of God. It may be that for the person familiar with Scripture, some of these are so apparent they are overlooked. The concept of heavenly worship begins with God’s revelation to the children of Israel about the building of the Tabernacle, and the manner of worship to take place within it. This revelation formed the basis for the Old Testament worship of the Jews. Worship on earth was to reflect worship in heaven.

Worship in the Old Testament

In Isaiah, Chapter 6, the prophet writes of being caught up to heaven and experiencing celestial worship. He tells us there were seraphim praising God, singing “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of Hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory” (verse 3). He records that one of the seraphim flew to him with a coal taken from the altar, and touched his mouth, taking away his sin. This was understood by the early fathers of the Church as being a type (or model) of the Eucharist. It was after this experience that Isaiah was commissioned by God to prophesy to His people. He ties this transporting vision into earthly time: the year King Uzziah died, about 731 B.C. (Isaiah 6:1). Even the Prophet Daniel reports that his vision was from being before the throne of the Ancient of Days, where He was served and ministered to (7:9-14).
In Revelation 4 and 5, the Apostle John was likewise caught up to heaven, and in that book we have the revelation of what he saw and of what he was told. He witnessed the heavenly liturgical worship before the throne of God. He records the presence of twenty-four elders before the throne bowing down before the Lord. Angelic creatures are praising God saying, **“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, Who was and Who is and Who is to come” (verse 8). In fact, he sees tens of thousands of angels worshiping the Lamb who was slain (5:11-12), and “every created thing which is in the heaven and on earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them” **worshiping the Lamb (5:13). Talk about heavenly liturgy!

The inescapable context in all of these accounts is that of worship: worship of God by all of His creatures. And it is with this basic understanding that Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, and Orthodoxy approach worship: it is the privilege and the responsibility of each person to bless God, that is, to praise and give thanks to the Holy Trinity for mercy and creation. Whether one agrees or fully understands it, the Bible testifies** that there is worship in Heaven.**

By extension then, it is only natural that Christian worship should be in keeping with the nature of worship in Heaven. The constant struggle both in Israel and in Christendom has been to avoid affirming the methods which mankind proposes as the means to approach and worship God, and to accept that revelation which God Himself has given, and to act on it. That is true theologically, and it is true liturgically as well. Worship is based on revelation. The early Christian Church used the Old Testament revelation as its starting point, and fulfilled it with the new and final revelation in Jesus Christ.

Worship in the New Testament

The summary New Testament passage on heavenly worship is Hebrews 8:1-6. Here Jesus Christ is described as the High Priest, seated at the right hand of God, Who has accomplished salvation and reconciliation through His mediation. Verse 2 says that this High Priest has another role also. He is the Liturgist (the word is leitourgos) of the sanctuary. Jesus Christ Himself is the Liturgist, and this liturgy takes place in the “sanctuary of the true tabernacle” which is in Heaven before the throne of God. Verses 4 and 5 **say that worship on earth is patterned after that in Heaven. This is described in verse 6 as the “more excellent liturgy” which He has obtained because He is the mediator of “a better covenant”. The teaching is quite clear — liturgical worship is not optional. Rather, it is normative for Christians.**BACK TO TOP

Worship on Earth — As It Is in Heaven

Worship on earth, then, is to be an extension, a reflection, of that in the Kingdom. It is to be a window to heaven. Christian believers cannot decide that this or that is unnecessary and disposable** because it is not contemporary or is not in vogue. **The obligation is to follow and to serve God, to accept His Word of revelation. This is the guardianship of Tradition in the life of the Church; to remain true to the faith as revealed, as it was in the beginning.

From the New Testament one can make three summary observations about the nature of the Kingdom of God. First,** it is a present spiritual reality** (Rom. 14:17), as **well as the realm or dimension into which followers of Jesus have entered **(Col. 1:13). Second, it is the reign or rule of God which has been established in Jesus Christ in the Church, and will be consummated when He returns (Matt. 8:11, 11:27). Third, it is the inheritance which will be bestowed upon God’s people when Christ comes in glory (Matt. 25:34).

Fr. Thomas Hopko describes it well when he says, "

The two comings of Christ are held together in Christian thought, action, and prayer at all times. They cannot be separated. When they are, it is the end of the Christian faith, life and worship. The first coming without the second is a meaningless tragedy. The second coming without the first is an absurd impossibility. Jesus is born to bring God’s Kingdom. He dies to prove His kingship. He rises to establish His reign. He comes again in glory to share it with His people. In the Kingdom of God there are no subjects. All rule with the risen Messiah. He came, and is coming, for this purpose alone."

Believers in Jesus Christ live both in this world, and in the Kingdom of God. They experience the Kingdom in their midst through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Thus Jesus said, “I will build My church” (Matt. 16:18). His Kingdom is Life, and it is what life on earth is about. Belief in Jesus Christ brings believers into the Kingdom of God through Baptism and makes them its citizens. At the same time, they are made members of His body, the Church, to be a holy nation unto Him. The Mass focused on the Eucharist as the mystery and sacrament of that Kingdom is indeed a living continuity with the beliefs and practices of early Christianity.

The Ascent to Heaven

Both of these truths, that of worship as “heaven on earth” and of the Church as the presence of the Kingdom of God, are crucial to understand Early Christian liturgical worship in its fullness. Worship is an entrance into the dimension of the Kingdom. The Eucharist which is the focus of the Liturgy, is a sacramental thing — that is, a thing of grace, a thing of the Kingdom which involves “the idea of transformation, which refers to the ultimate event of Christ’s death and resurrection, and is always a sacrament of the Kingdom.” [2] For the Christian, the Eucharist is not a mere remembrance, a symbolic acting out of an historical event in the life of Jesus Christ. Christians take the Lord and Savior at His word when He said, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life…” (John 5:53-54). In communion believers receive bread and wine that has become the Body and Blood of Christ by the work of the Holy Spirit, by the grace of God.

The destination of the Liturgy is known from the outset — the first words said by the priest are “Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages.” The believer’s destination is the Kingdom of God, to worship Him in spirit and in truth; to join the saints and the Host of Heaven in worship.

In light of liturgical, sacramental worship being the God-sanctioned worship of Israel (See the Old Testament) in the early Church (See Justin Martyr, Didache, Irenaeus, Clement, etc…) in Heaven (See Revelation, Isaiah, etc…) and in all the ancient Apostolic Churches (Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Jacobite, Armenian)…

Why is it that many evangelical and Protestant denominations have ousted liturgical, sacramental worship?

Why do some prefer commercialized, trivialized flashy services and seek to “relevantize” the Gospel of Christ, which is unchangeable?

In light of the overwhelming use of traditional, liturgical, sacramental worship by Israel, the historic and early Church, and the liturgical worship in Heaven, what is the justification for some modern Protestant communities to throw this out and do it their own way?

 

[reteeks21]

Worship begins in heaven. The Holy Scriptures record numerous instances of the drama of the heavenly liturgy taking place before the very throne of God. It may be that for the person familiar with Scripture, some of these are so apparent they are overlooked. The concept of heavenly worship begins with God’s revelation to the children of Israel about the building of the Tabernacle, and the manner of worship to take place within it. This revelation formed the basis for the Old Testament worship of the Jews. Worship on earth was to reflect worship in heaven.

Worship in the Old Testament

In Isaiah, Chapter 6, the prophet writes of being caught up to heaven and experiencing celestial worship. He tells us there were seraphim praising God, singing “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of Hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory” (verse 3). He records that one of the seraphim flew to him with a coal taken from the altar, and touched his mouth, taking away his sin. This was understood by the early fathers of the Church as being a type (or model) of the Eucharist. It was after this experience that Isaiah was commissioned by God to prophesy to His people. He ties this transporting vision into earthly time: the year King Uzziah died, about 731 B.C. (Isaiah 6:1). Even the Prophet Daniel reports that his vision was from being before the throne of the Ancient of Days, where He was served and ministered to (7:9-14).
In Revelation 4 and 5, the Apostle John was likewise caught up to heaven, and in that book we have the revelation of what he saw and of what he was told. He witnessed the heavenly liturgical worship before the throne of God. He records the presence of twenty-four elders before the throne bowing down before the Lord. Angelic creatures are praising God saying, **“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, Who was and Who is and Who is to come” (verse 8). In fact, he sees tens of thousands of angels worshiping the Lamb who was slain (5:11-12), and “every created thing which is in the heaven and on earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them” **worshiping the Lamb (5:13). Talk about heavenly liturgy!

The inescapable context in all of these accounts is that of worship: worship of God by all of His creatures. And it is with this basic understanding that Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, and Orthodoxy approach worship: it is the privilege and the responsibility of each person to bless God, that is, to praise and give thanks to the Holy Trinity for mercy and creation. Whether one agrees or fully understands it, the Bible testifies** that there is worship in Heaven.**

By extension then, it is only natural that Christian worship should be in keeping with the nature of worship in Heaven. The constant struggle both in Israel and in Christendom has been to avoid affirming the methods which mankind proposes as the means to approach and worship God, and to accept that revelation which God Himself has given, and to act on it. That is true theologically, and it is true liturgically as well. Worship is based on revelation. The early Christian Church used the Old Testament revelation as its starting point, and fulfilled it with the new and final revelation in Jesus Christ.

Worship in the New Testament

The summary New Testament passage on heavenly worship is Hebrews 8:1-6. Here Jesus Christ is described as the High Priest, seated at the right hand of God, Who has accomplished salvation and reconciliation through His mediation. Verse 2 says that this High Priest has another role also. He is the Liturgist (the word is leitourgos) of the sanctuary. Jesus Christ Himself is the Liturgist, and this liturgy takes place in the “sanctuary of the true tabernacle” which is in Heaven before the throne of God. Verses 4 and 5 **say that worship on earth is patterned after that in Heaven. This is described in verse 6 as the “more excellent liturgy” which He has obtained because He is the mediator of “a better covenant”. The teaching is quite clear — liturgical worship is not optional. Rather, it is normative for Christians.**BACK TO TOP

Worship on Earth — As It Is in Heaven

Worship on earth, then, is to be an extension, a reflection, of that in the Kingdom. It is to be a window to heaven. Christian believers cannot decide that this or that is unnecessary and disposable** because it is not contemporary or is not in vogue. **The obligation is to follow and to serve God, to accept His Word of revelation. This is the guardianship of Tradition in the life of the Church; to remain true to the faith as revealed, as it was in the beginning.

From the New Testament one can make three summary observations about the nature of the Kingdom of God. First,** it is a present spiritual reality** (Rom. 14:17), as **well as the realm or dimension into which followers of Jesus have entered **(Col. 1:13). Second, it is the reign or rule of God which has been established in Jesus Christ in the Church, and will be consummated when He returns (Matt. 8:11, 11:27). Third, it is the inheritance which will be bestowed upon God’s people when Christ comes in glory (Matt. 25:34).

Fr. Thomas Hopko describes it well when he says, "

Believers in Jesus Christ live both in this world, and in the Kingdom of God. They experience the Kingdom in their midst through the work of the Holy Spirit.

Thus Jesus said, “I will build My church” (Matt. 16:18). His Kingdom is Life, and it is what life on earth is about. Belief in Jesus Christ brings believers into the Kingdom of God through Baptism and makes them its citizens. At the same time, they are made members of His body, the Church, to be a holy nation unto Him. The Mass focused on the Eucharist as the mystery and sacrament of that Kingdom is indeed a living continuity with the beliefs and practices of early Christianity.

The Ascent to Heaven

Both of these truths, that of worship as “heaven on earth” and of the Church as the presence of the Kingdom of God, are crucial to understand Early Christian liturgical worship in its fullness. Worship is an entrance into the dimension of the Kingdom. The Eucharist which is the focus of the Liturgy, is a sacramental thing — that is, a thing of grace, a thing of the Kingdom which involves “the idea of transformation, which refers to the ultimate event of Christ’s death and resurrection, and is always a sacrament of the Kingdom.” [2] For the Christian, the Eucharist is not a mere remembrance, a symbolic acting out of an historical event in the life of Jesus Christ. Christians take the Lord and Savior at His word when He said, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life…” (John 5:53-54). In communion believers receive bread and wine that has become the Body and Blood of Christ by the work of the Holy Spirit, by the grace of God.

The destination of the Liturgy is known from the outset — the first words said by the priest are “Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages.” The believer’s destination is the Kingdom of God, to worship Him in spirit and in truth; to join the saints and the Host of Heaven in worship.

In light of liturgical, sacramental worship being the God-sanctioned worship of Israel (See the Old Testament) in the early Church (See Justin Martyr, Didache, Irenaeus, Clement, etc…) in Heaven (See Revelation, Isaiah, etc…) and in all the ancient Apostolic Churches (Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Jacobite, Armenian)…

Why is it that many evangelical and Protestant denominations have ousted liturgical, sacramental worship?

Why do some prefer commercialized, trivialized flashy services and seek to “relevantize” the Gospel of Christ, which is unchangeable?

In light of the overwhelming use of traditional, liturgical, sacramental worship by Israel, the historic and early Church, and the liturgical worship in Heaven, what is the justification for some modern Protestant communities to throw this out and do it their own way?

Two things:
1.) I also find it sad that many of us protestants don’t partake in the sacraments and liturgy in our churches. Much of that has to do with the “this is the way we do it” mentality. I have also seen that thinking with some catholics i.e, my own family. My grandparents were very “traditionalist” in many ways (ex: mass should be in Latin only), but my cousins don’t see it that way. While both sets are of different opinions, they are no less committed to their faith as the other.
2.) The idea of services that you see in some protestants churches is based on numerous reasons, all of which I can’t attempt to name here, but I can name a couple. In the Old Testament folk like David danced and sang before the Lord, and God didn’t have a problem with that. In the New Testament you have examples of believers gathering together where they are singing hymns, and then in other instances it is noted that gathered to sing hymns of praise. What form those hymns took I won’t pretend to be intelligent enough to guess at. To some this may not be a good explanation, but nonetheless it is a brief attempt at sharing some of our beliefs and practices.

 

[bpbasilphx]

In the Old Testament folk like David danced and sang before the Lord, and God didn’t have a problem with that.

Remember that David didn’t have very much on. Those who “wanna dance like David danced” don’t really want to when you point out this one Biblical fact.

In the New Testament you have examples of believers gathering together where they are singing hymns, and then in other instances it is noted that gathered to sing hymns of praise. What form those hymns took I won’t pretend to be intelligent enough to guess at…

**As a long time Church musician with a master’s degree, I’m quite willing to answer your questions.

They would have been of the type sung to this day in Byzantine and Chaldean Churches–rhythmical unrhymed prose.**

 

[reteeks21]

In the Old Testament folk like David danced and sang before the Lord, and God didn’t have a problem with that.

Remember that David didn’t have very much on. Those who “wanna dance like David danced” don’t really want to when you point out this one Biblical fact.

In the New Testament you have examples of believers gathering together where they are singing hymns, and then in other instances it is noted that gathered to sing hymns of praise. What form those hymns took I won’t pretend to be intelligent enough to guess at…

**As a long time Church musician with a master’s degree, I’m quite willing to answer your questions.

They would have been of the type sung to this day in Byzantine and Chaldean Churches–rhythmical unrhymed prose.**

You got me. Despite simply trying to just offer up an explanation, and possibly a different way of looking at things, I’ve once again been made aware of how wrong I am. Thanks.

 

[Rightlydivide]

What exactly, visible, do you mean by liturgical? What would that by defintion have to include? Specifically, using only verses if you will.

 

[Matariel]

What exactly, visible, do you mean by liturgical? What would that by defintion have to include? Specifically, using only verses if you will.

For one, I do not have to agree to use only verses, as that would concede that I believe in the falsity of Sola Scriptura, which I used to believe in. I will consider all pertinent evidence, not just Scriptural evidence.

Well, the ancient Jews used set rites and rituals as laid out in the books of Numbers, Deuteronomy, and so forth, and set readings (such as in the calendars of the Apostolic Churches) were read on certain times. Incense and litanies, and use of the Psalms in worship were also present, as they are today in the Mass and Divine Liturgy. I suggest you also read the Wikipedia article on Jewish Services too.

References from the Didache, Irenaeus, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement, and especially the early Christian apologist Justin Martyr with his discription of the elaborate ritual of the Eucharist show the early Christian view of the liturgy.

And then, finally, read the discription of Heavenly worship in the Bible. Much prostration, incense, the golden Altar, repetative hymn, singing, golden candlestands, and the Eucharist under the form of the Lamb that was slain. Every Mass and Divine liturgy sings the Thrice-Holy Hymn along with the heavenly host.

You should re-read the OP. You didn’t aswer or explain any of it.

 

[Matariel]

You got me. Despite simply trying to just offer up an explanation, and possibly a different way of looking at things, I’ve once again been made aware of how wrong I am. Thanks.

Charity please! Dialogue goes both ways, and this is a discussion. All he was doing is offering a rebuttal, charitably.

And also, David dancing is not a public communal service of worship. It was a spur of the moment kind of thing, I think.

 

[Rightlydivide]

For one, I do not have to agree to use only verses, as that would concede that I believe in the falsity of Sola Scriptura, which I used to believe in. I will consider all pertinent evidence, not just Scriptural evidence.

Well, the ancient Jews used set rites and rituals as laid out in the books of Numbers, Deuteronomy, and so forth, and set readings (such as in the calendars of the Apostolic Churches) were read on certain times. Incense and litanies, and use of the Psalms in worship were also present, as they are today in the Mass and Divine Liturgy. I suggest you also read the Wikipedia article on Jewish Services too.

References from the Didache, Irenaeus, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement, and especially the early Christian apologist Justin Martyr with his discription of the elaborate ritual of the Eucharist show the early Christian view of the liturgy.

And then, finally, read the discription of Heavenly worship in the Bible. Much prostration, incense, the golden Altar, repetative hymn, singing, golden candlestands, and the Eucharist under the form of the Lamb that was slain. Every Mass and Divine liturgy sings the Thrice-Holy Hymn along with the heavenly host.

You should re-read the OP. You didn’t aswer or explain any of it.

The Didache? Liturgical worship? The only time Didache and liturgical are used together is accompanied by words like “lack of” or “simple”
Justyn Martyr? ELABORATE RITUAL? You cannot be serious; except I think you are! What he describes is quite simple without even having to look:
They read the scriptures as long as time permitted; who know how long.
The president of the congregation spoke.
They took the Eucharist.
No elaboration whatsoever. Ok now, let me go and find it so we can see if I am right:

“And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.”

I even forgot something ACCORDING TO HIS ability. That is not set liturgy. Its extemporaneous.

Ignatius describes worship? Share that one with me please.

The earliest synagogue worship was quite simple. We are not talking about the Temple. Do not confuse the two.
You see what you want to see.

Use of the Psalms. You mean reading them and putting them to music? Are you contending that does not occur?

Much prostation? Do tell. What do you call getting on your knees and praying to God?
Singing. Ok.
As far as the Eucharist in Revelation; tell me specifically what you mean please

 

[Matariel]

The Didache? Liturgical worship? The only time Didache and liturgical are used together is accompanied by words like “lack of” or “simple”

Huh? I guess people just look at it the way they want to. “Simple” doesn’t contradict “liturgical”. Amish have liturgical worship, and it’s as plain as plain gets.

Justyn Martyr? ELABORATE RITUAL? You cannot be serious; except I think you are! What he describes is quite simple without even having to look:
They read the scriptures as long as time permitted; who know how long.
The president of the congregation spoke.
They took the Eucharist.
No elaboration whatsoever. Ok now, let me go and find it so we can see if I am right:

Interestingly, this is the same as the order of Mass even today, and the Divine liturgy.

Pliny was governor of the Roman province of Bithynia, and in the year 112 AD wrote to the Emperor asking for advice on what to do about troublesome Christians.

**It was the practice of these Christians ‘…to sing antiphonally a song to Christ as a god, and to bind themselves on oath… to commit no theft, murder, adultery, not to break their word, not to deny possession of something entrusted to them… and then reassemble to share a common meal together…’ **

From this we may deduce that the early Christian Church used song and the Ten Commandments within their times of worship together. From approximately forty years later comes an account from the Christian Justin Martyr. He describes the format of an early gathering of Christians. He also describes the liturgical vessels and chalices, and gowns worn by those participating in the liturgy. I’m looking it up now.

There are readings from the Word, followed by a sermon. The people would then stand for prayer, after which would be the sharing of the kiss of peace. Bread and wine were shared, and prayers said by the president. Justin uses the term ‘Eucharist’ (meaning ‘thanksgiving’) to describe the sharing of sacrament and prayer. This would be firmiliar to any Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican.

There are some lovely prayers that have survived from the fledgling Church. In the Didache comes this prayer.

“Just as the bread broken was scattered on the hills, then was gathered and became one, so let your Church be gathered from all the ends of the earth into your kingdom, for yours is the glory and power through all ages.”

As we pass into the third century and beyond we find descriptions for various acts of worship. Hippolytus gives us a liturgy for the Eucharist to be used during the consecration of a bishop, which is similar in style to our modern forms of liturgy, with familiar responses such as ‘The Lord be with you’, ‘And with your Spirit’.

Although Justin Martyr’s description of a Christian gathering contains echoes of our more familiar ‘service of word and sacrament’ there is very little known about the ‘service of the word’ (sometimes known as the synaxis) in New Testament times. Later evidence suggests influence from the synagogues, in the form of readings and responsive prayers.

The Eucharist

And this food is called among us Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Weekly worship of the Christians

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration

Hm. The emboldened part sounds a lot like the modern Mass to me! Including the Real Presence, wow!

I even forgot something ACCORDING TO HIS ability. That is not set liturgy. Its extemporaneous.

“According to his ability”. Hm. That doesn’t mean the service is extemporaneous.

Ignatius describes worship? Share that one with me please.

Let me look it up. I may have confused him with another Father.

The earliest synagogue worship was quite simple. We are not talking about the Temple. Do not confuse the two.
You see what you want to see.

No, we are talking of both, as Christian worship evolved from both synagogue and Temple worship. Tell me; have you ever been to a synagogue service? Liturgical, actually, though simple. The two are not contradictory.

You cannot just say, “we are not talking about the Temple” just because it doesn’t jive with your pastro-centric, extemporaneous commercialized worship. No hard feelings, but that’s a little sneaky.

Use of the Psalms. You mean reading them and putting them to music? Are you contending that does not occur?

I used to be a Protestant, and they were always read to make a sermon point or something, not really treated as music or poetry like in the ancient Churches.

Much prostation? Do tell. What do you call getting on your knees and praying to God?

This is discribed in the liturgy in Heaven, as discribed in Revelation.

Singing. Ok.
As far as the Eucharist in Revelation; tell me specifically what you mean please

You wouldn’t interpret it that way, as you believe in the Real Absence.

 

[Matariel]

From an Orthodox site:

Jews at the time of Jesus Christ had already had a history of worship almost 1500 years long. Their history was full of interaction with God Who called them to be His people, and Who had revealed to them specific instructions as to the offerings and sacrifices which were part of the way in which He was to be worshiped. The Bible is clear that God revealed to Israel how to worship, and it was patterned after things in heaven. These specific forms or liturgies of worship were first seen in the Tabernacle of the early Israelites, and were consummated in the Temple worship which took place later in Jerusalem. The worship of God in the Temple in Jerusalem was the first and most prominent focus of Jewish worship, which included the form and frequency of prayer and sacrifice.
For Judaism there had always been a constant cycle of prayers, blessings and meals: daily, weekly, monthly and annually. These constituted the second focus of worship for the Jews. In its most regular form it included practices in the daily hours of prayers and the annual High Feast Days. The High Feast Days included the sacrificial offerings of the Temple and contained Jewish messianic expectation. These meals included the “breaking of bread” and the “blessing of the cup”, and contained parallels with both the temple sacrifice and the messianic feast.

There was a “meal liturgy” for the prayers of the meals, and in principle they were required for every meal. However, it took on the greatest importance in family meals and especially the meals of the Holy Days. The entire structure of the Last Supper as recorded by St. Luke mirrors the meal liturgy as practiced within Judaism at the time. These meal prayers and their structure contributed directly in the formation of the early Christian celebration of the Lord’s Supper.

The third and later focus of worship was that of the synagogue. For the average Israelite, the Temple was a place of worship only on certain days of the year, and it was most specifically a place of sacrifice. During the Babylonian captivity, worship in the Temple was impossible. A new form of worship came into being, a form focused patterned on temple worship, but without the sacrificial element which took place only in the Temple, and with a strong didactic element of teaching and remembering. These two elements of Jewish worship — synagogue and temple — together formed the very basic components of the form or order of the liturgy for the early Christian Church.

Besides the structure or order of worship that came from Judaism into Christianity, one can also find the cycles of liturgy — the daily, weekly and yearly cycles of worship-coming from the Old Testament as well. Acts 2:46 says that “day by day, continuing steadfastly with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread at home, they took their food with gladness and singleness of heart”. On a daily basis the Apostles continued their Jewish worship practices in the temple, and on a daily basis broke the bread of communion. This regularity of time is further confirmed in Acts 3:1 where Peter and John were going to the temple because it was the hour of prayer. Not only did they continue in Jewish worship practice, but they kept the liturgical cycle of daily prayers at set hours of the day as well as the major feast days.

Christian worship, then, was a Christ-centered pattern that continued and preserved the traditional structure of synagogue worship and the meaning of temple worship that the Lord had established in Israel. This basic structure included the Old and New Testament practices of liturgy, baptism, and Paschal feast that became the Eucharist, and certain of the feast days.

The continuity of temple and synagogue worship practices characterized the Church in its earliest days, and the synagogue form became the basic order or worship for the Christian Church. This structure was set very early during the New Testament era while the Church was still seen as essentially a Jewish sect, a messianic sect believing in Jesus Christ. The setting of this order or form of worship took place even prior to the admission of Gentiles into the Church, and before the spread of the Gospel outside of Judea. Therefore, by the time the Gentile missions began in about 38 A.D. (and later enhanced by Paul’s missionary activity), this order was established and accepted as the form of Christian worship. Into the basic synagogue form were blended other elements from the temple as well as some uniquely Christian elements.
Regarding the Temple, it is important to realize two things about its worship. First, the primary type of activity was sacrifice. The cadence in the spiritual lives of most Old Testament Jews was the celebration of the Holy Feast days — and their corresponding offerings. And what determined the manner in which these sacrifices would take place? God had given the instructions in Exodus and Leviticus which describe in detail the manner in which worship is to be offered to God. Secondly, worship in the temple — and in fact all Christian worship — was and is to reflect worship in Heaven.

The Scriptures provide glimpses of heavenly worship. There are reports of it in Isaiah 6, Daniel 7, and Revelations 4 and 5. It was upon this heavenly worship that the worship of God on earth was patterned. Exodus 25 through 27 provides detailed information about the nature of temple worship, including the physical structure of the temple and its dimensions, instructions for the Ark to be built, the internal decor of the Tabernacle, details of the priests’ vestments, the use of incense, the presence of an altar, the daily offerings, the use of anointing oil, and the use of images.

Exodus 25:17 begins the command of God regarding the making of the Ark of the Covenant. It includes the command to make two cherubim of gold, between which God said that He would “meet with thee and I will commune with thee from above the mercy-seat, from between the two cherubim”. The mercy seat, or Ark of the Covenant, was understood as “the empty throne where nothing was to be seen; on this throne God was present — the sole object of worship in Israel… God spoke from between the cherubim — invisibly present on His throne — to Moses, Aaron, Samuel … to His people. Here the blood of atonement had been sprinkled each year.”

The original Ark, which disappeared in the exile, had held the Tablets of the Law. It was understood both as the place of sacrifice and the place from which God spoke — the place of communion. This is one reason that in Eastern Orthodox Churches there are representations of two cherubim behind the altar on which the bread and wine are consecrated to become the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ who was sacrificed for mankind. And between and before them is the altar at which the communion takes place in the Eucharist. Further, on the altar stands a candleholder with seven candles, in the manner of the Jewish Menorah, the light of which is the sign of the presence of God.

Hebrews Chapter 8 describes the role of Jesus Christ as the heavenly High Priest in contrast with the Old Testament priesthood. And what is the word used to describe what the High Priest is doing? It is liturgy. The passage properly reads from the first verse of the chapter as follows: “We have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a liturgist (leitourgos) in the sanctuary and true tabernacle which is set up not by man but by the Lord.” (8:1,2). The worship of heaven, the liturgy, has been established forever by God Himself. Hebrews then goes on to demonstrate that what is done on earth should be patterned after that in Heaven — both in the Old and New Covenants. Literally, “now Jesus has been given a liturgical work (liturgist) which is superior to theirs, just as the covenant which He arranged between God and His people is a better one…” (8:6).

According to the Bible there is worship in Heaven, and it is to be our pattern. The original Greek word in every early manuscript is leitourgos. It means liturgy. It is easy to understand why the early Christians continued in their synagogue and temple practices. Worship had been revealed to them by God. Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of all that God had promised in the Old Testament; in Him all the hopes of Israel were fulfilled. It was only natural that in worshiping God through Jesus Christ, believers would continue to do so as they had been told, in the manner God revealed to them.

 

[reteeks21]

Charity please! Dialogue goes both ways, and this is a discussion. All he was doing is offering a rebuttal, charitably.

And also, David dancing is not a public communal service of worship. It was a spur of the moment kind of thing, I think.

And worship can’t be spur of the moment, or does it have to be done in a specific sort of way.