Protestants, why are you not Catholic?

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classical_hero said:
Mary is highly favoured since God chose her for a role that is reserved for one woman alone, but she is still just like every other women, just that God chose her to carry the Son of God on earth.
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Just as the OT Ark of the Covenant was just like any other box, except that it was made as a Throne of God.
 
Kliska said:
This is indeed absurd, good thing that is not anywhere close to what I said.

Is the church the body of Christ or not? Let me answer for both of us; yes, the church is the body of Christ. Read the passage again. Paul was mad because of the **divisions **taking place when it was supposed to be a gathering of the Body. They were splitting the body of Christ and their manner of partaking was reprehensible. Note that they are eating and drinking damnation onto themselves **because they were not discerning the body; that is they were not discerning the Body of Christ; the church.
**
This is not even interpretation, it’s just reading what Paul actually said.
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And so what does that mean for the vast divisions between Protestants and Catholics?

What does that mean for denominationalism?

Until 1050, There was one church, with one Eucharist and one baptism, and one doctrine. There were no sanctioned divisions among them.

Only after 1500’s did we have the explosion of divisions.

What does that mean today ? Seems Paul does speak harshly about that as you pointed out.

It seems like you are left with…

Either Catholicism/Orthodoxy is true…or my small little church/denomination is the true body of Christ.

If the latter, I’d ask for evidence.
 
Jon_S said:
I also wonder how it is if someone eats bread while drunk, is guilty of the body and blood of The Lord.
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It seems like Kliska, et. al., passed right by this gem.

Taken in context, St. Paul is clearly NOT talking about the Body of Christ as the Church; or, if he is, he is ALSO talking about the Real Presence:

1Co 11:18 For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it,
19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.
20 When you meet together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat.
21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another is drunk.
22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.
23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged.

I doubt that one could become ill and die for not recognizing the Body as Kliska has postulated.
🤷
 
Jon_S said:
And so what does that mean for the vast divisions between Protestants and Catholics?
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You could have communion with me fully, as long as you profess Christ. Respectfully, my peeps aren’t the one dividing anything.
FathersKnowBest said:
It seems like Kliska, et. al., passed right by this gem.

Taken in context, St. Paul is clearly NOT talking about the Body of Christ as the Church; or, if he is, he is ALSO talking about the Real Presence:

1Co 11:18 For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it,
19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.
20 When you meet together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat.
21 For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another is drunk.
22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.
23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged.

I doubt that one could become ill and die for not recognizing the Body as Kliska has postulated.
🤷
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That’s what Paul is saying, however, it IS about the Body the Church. They are partaking in an unworthy manner by rejecting the Body of Christ and abusing their brothers and sisters in Christ, thereby not showing the sign of unity that Jesus says the world will know His disciples; love. The ironic thing is this was supposed to be an “agape” feast.

The Greek word for judgment here is a temporary judgment, not a permanent one.
 
Kliska said:
You could have communion with me fully, as long as you profess Christ. Respectfully, my peeps aren’t the one dividing anything.

That’s what Paul is saying, however, it IS about the Body the Church. They are partaking in an unworthy manner by rejecting the Body of Christ and abusing their brothers and sisters in Christ, thereby not showing the sign of unity that Jesus says the world will know His disciples; love. The ironic thing is this was supposed to be an “agape” feast.

The Greek word for judgment here is a temporary judgment, not a permanent one.
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You’re ignoring the pertinent phrase here. I highlighted it in red, and made it bold.
What more could I do? 🤷
 
Kliska said:
You could have communion with me fully, as long as you profess Christ. Respectfully, my peeps aren’t the one dividing anything.
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Perhaps not with communion.

But you do (and you ought to!) divide when it comes to the Westboro Baptist Church. You divide and say: you are incorrect in what you profess regarding God hating anyone.

And you do (and you ought to!) divide when it comes to the anti-Pauline folks (folks who have decided after reading the Scriptures and praying to the Holy Spirit that the Pauline epistles are satanic) when you say: your decision is erroneous.

So it’s not quite correct to say that your “peeps aren’t the one dividing anything.”
 
PRmerger said:
Perhaps not with communion.

But you do (and you ought to!) divide when it comes to the Westboro Baptist Church. You divide and say: you are incorrect in what you profess regarding God hating anyone.

And you do (and you ought to!) divide when it comes to the anti-Pauline folks (folks who have decided after reading the Scriptures and praying to the Holy Spirit that the Pauline epistles are satanic) when you say: your decision is erroneous.

So it’s not quite correct to say that your “peeps aren’t the one dividing anything.”
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Wrong, I’m saying they are not a part of the body of Christ as a supposed “church.” They show they are not Christian by their lack of love, amongst other things. They don’t share God as a Father, hence, I would not commune with them. Again there are 2 kinds of humans; believers and non. That is the dividing line. If you came to worship with me, we could fully worship with no division on my side because you can commune with me as part of the body of Christ.

Have a good evening PR, as I said, when people start using the Westboro’s to try to prove a point, for any reason, I’m done.
 
Kliska said:
Wrong, I’m saying they are not a part of the body of Christ as a supposed “church.” They show they are not Christian by their lack of love, amongst other things. They don’t share God as a Father, hence, I would not commune with them. Again there are 2 kinds of humans; believers and non. That is the dividing line. If you came to worship with me, we could fully worship with no division on my side because you can commune with me as part of the body of Christ.
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Well, once again, you seem to reserve for yourself what you deny to others.

You get to decide to divide. But when others (here, read the CC) do it, it’s wrong in your estimation.
 
Kliska said:
Wrong, I’m saying they are not a part of the body of Christ as a supposed “church.” They show they are not Christian by their lack of love, amongst other things. They don’t share God as a Father, hence, I would not commune with them. Again there are 2 kinds of humans; believers and non. That is the dividing line. If you came to worship with me, we could fully worship with no division on my side because you can commune with me as part of the body of Christ.

Have a good evening PR, as I said, when people start using the Westboro’s to try to prove a point, for any reason, I’m done.
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But why are you saying they are not part of the body of Christ, and by what authority? They claim to be preaching the Word of God, and frequently cite the OT to justify their actions. And as I pointed out on the other thread (the one where you also bowed out of the discussion), the WBC subscribes to articles of confession rooted in the Reformed tradition.
 
Kliska said:
You could have communion with me fully, as long as you profess Christ. Respectfully, my peeps aren’t the one dividing anything.

That’s what Paul is saying, however, it IS about the Body the Church. They are partaking in an unworthy manner by rejecting the Body of Christ and abusing their brothers and sisters in Christ, thereby not showing the sign of unity that Jesus says the world will know His disciples; love. The ironic thing is this was supposed to be an “agape” feast.

The Greek word for judgment here is a temporary judgment, not a permanent one.
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Glad to know I could go to your church and start leading bible studies and professing Catholic Doctrine preferably from the pulpit but at least as an outspoken lay person and still be welcome at your communion table and amongst your peers in your church.

My lifetime as a Protestant was not at all like that, but if your church is truly like that, then good.
 
Jon_S said:
I like to phrase things that way because it is a general attack on Catholics that we have man made traditions.

In fact only Catholics and Orthodox can claim our traditions originate in Christ and the Apostles because only we have the historical pedigree to do so.

It is the entirety of Protestantism that rests on man made traditions. Whether it be Luther, Cslvin, Zuigli, Wesley, Hrnry VIII, or Marc Driscoll or Joel Olsteen. They are all founded on men and their traditions.
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Well, not to nit pick, but, that is exactly how Protestants view the Roman Catholic and to some degree the Orthodox Church. Man made traditions that are not on par with Sacred Scripture. Now, I don’t know if this has been discussed (I’m sure it has) that the idea of Sola Scriptura is that the Bible, along with the Holy Spirit, are the final authority on matters of faith and doctrine. You have noticed I’m sure that most of the Protestants here do not agree with many of the Traditions of the RCC. Why do you suppose that is? Could it really be as easy as the Traditions are man made and not scriptural? Think of this: The so-called “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” as Rome maintains that it is, has suffered two major splits (The Great Schism and the Protestant Reformation) and it seems that there are even splinter groups that peel away from the RCC. Maybe, it’s time to look into that. So, instead of focusing on the imaginary number of 30-50,000 so called “protestant denominations”, (or the 200+ Catholic denominations) maybe you should focus on the log in your own eye. That might help in healing and lead to unity. But, that’s just my :twocents:
 
batman1973 said:
Well, not to nit pick, but, that is exactly how Protestants view the Roman Catholic and to some degree the Orthodox Church. Man made traditions that are not on par with Sacred Scripture. Now, I don’t know if this has been discussed (I’m sure it has) that the idea of Sola Scriptura is that the Bible, along with the Holy Spirit, are the final authority on matters of faith and doctrine. You have noticed I’m sure that most of the Protestants here do not agree with many of the Traditions of the RCC. Why do you suppose that is? Could it really be as easy as the Traditions are man made and not scriptural? Think of this: The so-called “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” as Rome maintains that it is, has suffered two major splits (The Great Schism and the Protestant Reformation) and it seems that there are even splinter groups that peel away from the RCC. Maybe, it’s time to look into that. So, instead of focusing on the imaginary number of 30-50,000 so called “protestant denominations”, (or the 200+ Catholic denominations) maybe you should focus on the log in your own eye. That might help in healing and lead to unity. But, that’s just my :twocents:
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Why do I suppose that people break away from the Catholic church?

One Word.

Authority

No one likes to submit to authority, of which Catholic Christianity demands.

This is why Protestantism is so popular. You get to be your own Authority. Just you your Bible and “supposedly” the Holy Spirit telling you what is right.

I guess the Holy Spirit must be schizophrenic or something seeing as it tells different people who are prayerfully seeking so many different things.

There is no historical support for Protestantism.

There is practical evidence against it.

There is countless scriptural evidence against it.

And most importantly, a religion invented 1500 years after Christ, founded on the backs of men such as Luther, has no more validity or foundation than the Mormons claims on Joseph Smith.

At least the Mormons recognize the need for authority and the church hence their “Great Apostasy” theory.
 
Jon_S said:
Why do I suppose that people break away from the Catholic church?

One Word.

Authority

No one likes to submit to authority, of which Catholic Christianity demands.

This is why Protestantism is so popular. You get to be your own Authority. Just you your Bible and “supposedly” the Holy Spirit telling you what is right.

I guess the Holy Spirit must be schizophrenic or something seeing as it tells different people who are prayerfully seeking so many different things.

There is no historical support for Protestantism.

There is practical evidence against it.

There is countless scriptural evidence against it.

And most importantly, a religion invented 1500 years after Christ, founded on the backs of men such as Luther, has no more validity or foundation than the Mormons claims on Joseph Smith.

At least the Mormons recognize the need for authority and the church hence their “Great Apostasy” theory.
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Wow. There’s so much wrong here. First of all, we Protestants submit to the authority of Jesus Christ, based upon his WORD, the Holy Bible, not some organization that claims to be the Church founded by Jesus. There is plenty of scriptural evidences. You and other Roman Catholic posters have not fully read what Kliska, Pocohombre and others have posted. You have been blinded by Roman Catholic dogma that you can’t see the truth when it stares at you.
 
Jon_S said:
Why do I suppose that people break away from the Catholic church?

One Word.

Authority

No one likes to submit to authority, of which Catholic Christianity demands.

This is why Protestantism is so popular. You get to be your own Authority. Just you your Bible and “supposedly” the Holy Spirit telling you what is right.
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Do you have any evidence that this is the official reason?
Jon_S said:
I guess the Holy Spirit must be schizophrenic or something seeing as it tells different people who are prayerfully seeking so many different things.
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I’m not judging you, but just be more careful with your use of sarcasm as it relates to the Holy Spirit. I get really nervous about speaking in any dishonorable way when it comes to the Holy Spirit, even if I’m not speaking literally.

Sorry, it just makes me cringe a little.
 
dronald said:
Do you have any evidence that this is the official reason?

I’m not judging you, but just be more careful with your use of sarcasm as it relates to the Holy Spirit. I get really nervous about speaking in any dishonorable way when it comes to the Holy Spirit, even if I’m not speaking literally.

Sorry, it just makes me cringe a little.
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Hey dronald,

Been a while, hope all is well.

I only have experience as my evidence for the authority issue, well that and the fact that the Refirmation cry was a move from church authority to individual authority.

I get what you say about the HS. I hope everyone saw it as sarcasm.

I just don’t see what other conclusion one can come to in Protestantism? Or Christianity in general if the Holy Spirit Works that way.

Practically just look at it.

I pray and seek for Gods guidance and become Catholic from Evangelical.

You do the same and remain evangelical.

So and so does it and becomes Methodist

And yet another does it and starts their own church.

It leaves 3 conclusions.

The Holy Spirit tells everyone different things

Your own individual church is the right one(because it’s the one you picked) and everyone else is wrong and without the Holy Spirit.

Or

The Holy Spirit doesn’t work like you say he works.

The Catholic position makes total sense.

The Holy Spirit protects the church from teaching error in numerous ways. It protects the original message given the church. Thus the Holy Spirit guides the church in its entirety.

Individually, the Holy Spirit, tugs on people’s hearts and points them to God and His church. Perhaps it was this tugging that led you to this forum.

🙂
 
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