Protestants, why are you not Catholic?

[Kliska]

Then what do you say to the person who says that he has done exactly what you have done, and has concluded that the Bible teaches that women ought not wear pants?

When you tell him that he is “erroneous” he will tell you, “Well, I prayed about it and studied the verses and the Holy Spirit told me that no women should wear pants.”

You cannot deny him what you reserve for yourself: the right to read and come to his own conclusions about what the Bible says.

Why do you keep insisting that I’m denying him anything? I say, thank you for the discussion, if they were nice, I may shake their hand, say “good luck with that,” and then move on. You do remember the verses about shaking the dust off your feet? BTW, I’ve had that discussion with my closest friend in High School; their church teaches that they can’t wear pants if they are female. In fact, she blatantly told me I was going to Hell. So, we had a conversation, which resulted in her running upstairs, puking, and calling her mom to come get her.

Am I offended she told me that? Nope. She thought she was doing me a favor out of love. What upset her so much? The right interpretation of scripture that I presented from the scriptures, and I have a suspicion she knew it. I did what I’m called to do; give an apologetic for the hope that is in me, and then we let it go. I trust the Spirit to deal with it.

Then that makes you into your own pope.

No, it doesn’t. The Pope claims to be the head of all Christendom. He claims to speak infallibly under certain conditions. He claims to be Vicar of Christ, amongst other things. No, I’m definitely no pope. And on that everyone can agree.

Or it prevents you from telling another person that he is erroneous.

No, it doesn’t. We’ve been beating this dead horse long enough. I tell people they are wrong quite a bit.

 

[PRmerger]

From reading the “fights” on this board, I think there would be quite a few Catholics and Orthodox that would disagree with you.

Ok. I happen to believe that the disagreements on doctrine are semantical differences.

From the research I’ve done, I would disagree with you too, esp. over the role of the bishop of Rome. That singular issue actually has an impact on all others, doesn’t it?

Indeed. When one becomes her own pope, one can refuse to view the Epistles of Paul as theopneustos, and everyone else who is her own pope cannot argue against that.

 

[Anne88]

Well, ok.

But if you ask me to pray for you, then I am mediating for you to God. I am stepping in the middle (that’s what mediation means–being in the middle, media).

So if you don’t have a problem with me mediating for you, without it usurping the One Mediatorship of Christ, then you ought to not have a problem with Mary mediating for us.

And at this point in the discussion with Protestants, the objection will then go to, “Well, we don’t really know that the dead can hear us.”

So we get to the understanding that there isn’t anything wrong with asking for the saints’ intercessions, but the objection becomes that we can’t know that they can hear us.

For no one can really object to asking for anyone’s intercession.

Because most protestant religions agree with the Catholic church that when you die, you don’t really die but go to heaven or hell or purgatory or wherever they believe people go when they die: for them to answer your statements here is hard.

For me, because the Bible teaches that when we die, we “sleep” in the ground until the resurrection at the 2nd Coming of Christ. I have no problem asking people around me to pray for me, and I have no problem NOT asking Mary or the saints to pray for me, because Mary and the saints, as pious and esteemed as they were, are dead, they are sleeping in the grave waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ. So for me to pray to Mary or the saints would be spiritualism.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecc 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Even Thessalonians 4:13-18 Talk about the dead being asleep… actually dead… and waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ

Therefore, the dead know nothing and can do nothing. They can’t help me. Only Jesus can help me and it is to God alone through Jesus alone that I confess, praise, give thanks and make petitions.

To answer the question, Why am I not a Catholic?
I am not a Catholic, because I believe in God, and His Word the Bible, and I wish to follow Him as revealed in the Bible completely, in everything, which I could not do if I were a Catholic.

I do believe that Catholics are sincere and that they believe in God as well. Not saying that you don’t, just giving my reasons.

 

[PRmerger]

Again, I repeat; Where are you getting your numbers from?

Math. And logic.

I happen to live in a large metropolitan area. There is a church on every corner. And each church disagrees with the next one on areas of doctrine.

Just in my own area there are tens of thousands of different denominations.

And, if one follows your paradigm where you have to answer to no one but yourself and your personal interpretation, you are a denomination of 1–and in fact, you say you belong to no denomination.

So if I extrapolate from you to all the others who follow your paradigm, then the actual number of denominations is in the millions.

So I think I was being quite conservative in my estimation of tens of thousands.

Incidentally, I have asked this question a multitude of times to folks who get upset about the obscenity of the tens of thousands of Christian denominations: what is the correct number? Give me your source, and I will examine it and consider using your number.

So far, no one has ever even attempted to respond.

Please make sure your source is able to include every one of these churches:

 

[Kliska]

Indeed. When one becomes her own pope, one can refuse to view the Epistles of Paul as theopneustos, and everyone else who is her own pope cannot argue against that.

You really are messing up your argument, as it doesn’t flow logically. If a child says that 2 and 2 equal 5, you correct it. If someone says that tithing is mandatory for the NT church, you correct it. It is then up to them to either believe the truth or not, and we will be personally held accountable for all we believe and teach. “They told me to do it/believe it” is not a proper defense.

If a protestant tells me they believe something simply because their pastor told them, I don’t really respect that. If a RC tells me the believe something simply because their magisterium told them… well, I don’t really respect that either. It is up to each of us to test all things and hold fast to that which is true and to study to show ourselves approved.

 

[PRmerger]

Because most protestant religions agree with the Catholic church that when you die, you don’t really die but go to heaven or hell or purgatory or wherever they believe people go when they die: for them to answer your statements here is hard.

Indeed.

For me, because the Bible teaches that when we die, we “sleep” in the ground until the resurrection at the 2nd Coming of Christ. I have no problem asking people around me to pray for me, and I have no problem NOT asking Mary or the saints to pray for me, because Mary and the saints, as pious and esteemed as they were, are dead, they are sleeping in the grave waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ. So for me to pray to Mary or the saints would be spiritualism.

How do you respond to the Transfiguration, in which Elijah and Moses are clearly not asleep in the ground, but rather conversing with Jesus?

 

[PRmerger]

You really are messing up your argument, as it doesn’t flow logically. If a child says that 2 and 2 equal 5, you correct it. If someone says that tithing is mandatory for the NT church, you correct it. It is then up to them to either believe the truth or not, and we will be personally held accountable for all we believe and teach. “They told me to do it/believe it” is not a proper defense.

If a protestant tells me they believe something simply because their pastor told them, I don’t really respect that. If a RC tells me the believe something simply because their magisterium told them… well, I don’t really respect that either. It is up to each of us to test all things and hold fast to that which is true and to study to show ourselves approved.

Except that your position is that each and every person gets to decide for herself what the math fact says. So she reads, and studies and then says, “I did what you told me to do, and I have determined that 2 + 2 = 5”.

You can only say, “I guess you did do what I do. We just came up with different answers, and now we’re stuck with not knowing which one of us is right.”

 

[Kliska]

Math. And logic.

I taught college level logic classes for years, you’ve done many things here that are not proper. You commit the everyone knows fallacy, the proof surrogate fallacy, and failure to cite a proper source. You also misplace the burden of proof. You made the claim in the positive/assertive sense, it is up to you to back it up.

 

[Kliska]

Except that your position is that each and every person gets to decide for herself what the math fact says. So she reads, and studies and then says, “I did what you told me to do, and I have determined that 2 + 2 = 5”.

You can only say, “I guess you did do what I do. We just came up with different answers, and now we’re stuck with not knowing which one of us is right.”

PR you are completely discounting both my answer, there is absolute truth, and more importantly the Holy Spirit. Good luck with that.

 

[PRmerger]

If a RC tells me the believe something simply because their magisterium told them… well, I don’t really respect that either.

Except that you have done just that, Kliska. You have taken the magisterium’s word that there are 27 books that belong in the NT.

Otherwise, you would have given us your independent studies that you have done, for each of those 27 books (one of which doesn’t even mention Jesus, once,)

AND!

given us your criteria for discerning how you concluded, independently, that they are inspired

AND!

given us your independent studies for the other 400 books which were also considered for the NT by the bishops of the CC.

I have asked for this on multiple occasions, but, of yet, have not received confirmation of your independent studies.

I await this, as well as the source for the correct number of Christian denominations, which I may then use, if I determine that it is valid and reliable.

I want to make sure, though, that your source has this church included in it:

http://greatergreater.com/images/200909/211103.jpg

 

[PRmerger]

I taught college level logic classes for years, you’ve done many things here that are not proper. You commit the everyone knows fallacy, the proof surrogate fallacy, and failure to cite a proper source. You also misplace the burden of proof. You made the claim in the positive/assertive sense, it is up to you to back it up.

I will entertain your number as soon as you give it to me, and your source.

 

[Steveabrous]

Math. And logic.

I happen to live in a large metropolitan area. There is a church on every corner. And each church disagrees with the next one on areas of doctrine.

Just in my own area there are tens of thousands of different denominations.

And, if one follows your paradigm where you have to answer to no one but yourself and your personal interpretation, you are a denomination of 1–and in fact, you say you belong to no denomination.

So if I extrapolate from you to all the others who follow your paradigm, then the actual number of denominations is in the millions.

So I think I was being quite conservative in my estimation of tens of thousands.

Incidentally, I have asked this question a multitude of times to folks who get upset about the obscenity of the tens of thousands of Christian denominations: what is the correct number? Give me your source, and I will examine it and consider using your number.

So far, no one has ever even attempted to respond.

Please make sure your source is able to include every one of these churches:

http://gothamist.com/attachments/nyc_daveh/storefrontchurch_4.jpg

You are wasting your time trying to reason with klista. I’ve already been down this road with Him/her on another thread.

I think this post says it all:

I’ve had that discussion with my closest friend in High School; their church teaches that they can’t wear pants if they are female. In fact, she blatantly told me I was going to Hell. So, we had a conversation, which resulted in her running upstairs, puking, and calling her mom to come get her.

Am I offended she told me that? Nope. She thought she was doing me a favor out of love. What upset her so much?*** The right interpretation of scripture that I presented from the scriptures***, and I have a suspicion she knew it. I did what I’m called to do; give an apologetic for the hope that is in me, and then we let it go. I trust the Spirit to deal with it.

Klista’s interpretation is correct and everyone else’s is wrong. Pointing out that other people think and do the same thing, yet come to different conclusions is useless.

 

[Anne88]

How do you respond to the Transfiguration, in which Elijah and Moses are clearly not asleep in the ground, but rather conversing with Jesus?

The Bible clearly teaches that Elijah was taken to heaven in a fiery chariot (2 Kings 2:11) and that God resurrected Moses (Jude 1:9) Elijah was taken to heaven as a representation of those who will never die, but be taken to heaven by God at the 2nd coming, and Moses as a representation of those who will be resurrected at the 2nd coming. The Bible never says to pray to them or to ask them for intercession. Their role is to be witnesses/representations of the two types of saved people who will be in heaven.

Jesus wasn’t praying to them either, he was, as you say, conversing. They were encouraging Him I’m sure, in His task of saving us, and it was a witness to the disciples to encourage them that Jesus was really the Son of God.

The Bible also mentions others who were resurrected at the same time that Jesus died on the cross (Matt 27:53)

These who were resurrected at the time when Jesus died, we are not given their names, this is specifically so that we would not be tempted to pray to them or worship them in anyway. They were resurrected for a purpose - to witness about Jesus, and it is very possible that they ascended to heaven as well - maybe when Jesus ascended, although the Bible doesn’t say so. So whether they ascended with Jesus or stayed and died again to wait, doesn’t affect to whom I pray to.

 

[adrift]

Because most protestant religions agree with the Catholic church that when you die, you don’t really die but go to heaven or hell or purgatory or wherever they believe people go when they die: for them to answer your statements here is hard.

For me, because the Bible teaches that when we die, we “sleep” in the ground until the resurrection at the 2nd Coming of Christ. I have no problem asking people around me to pray for me, and I have no problem NOT asking Mary or the saints to pray for me, because Mary and the saints, as pious and esteemed as they were, are dead, they are sleeping in the grave waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ. So for me to pray to Mary or the saints would be spiritualism.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecc 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Even Thessalonians 4:13-18 Talk about the dead being asleep… actually dead… and waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ

Therefore, the dead know nothing and can do nothing. They can’t help me. Only Jesus can help me and it is to God alone through Jesus alone that I confess, praise, give thanks and make petitions.

Why is it Scripture speaks of death as sleep (Acts 7:59-60)? A Seventh-day Adventist friend tells me this means we become unconscious at death and don’t “wake up” until the resurrection of the dead.

Answer

Your Adventist friend is mistaken. The Bible speaks of death as sleep because the body looks as if it’s asleep when we die, not because the soul becomes unconscious.

In the first passage you listed, Acts 7:59-60, Stephen, before “falling asleep” in death, cries out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” That this doesn’t support “soul sleep” is clear from Jesus’ similar remark on the cross (Lk 23:46), which didn’t preclude his telling the Good Thief who died with him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Lk 23:43).

If, as the Adventists believe, human beings don’t possess an immaterial spirit which continues after the death of the body, then Stephen’s outcry (as well as Christ’s) is meaningless–there would be no spirit of Stephen for the Lord to receive.

The Bible doesn’t teach the concept of “soul sleep.” Jesus’ parable of Lazarus and the rich man, for example, demonstrates that after death both the righteous and the unrighteous are aware of their fates (Lk 16:19-31).

The apostle Paul also teaches conscious existence after death. He speaks of his desire to depart this life and to go on to be with Christ (Phil 1:23). In 2 Corinthians 12:3-4, Paul tells of his being caught up to paradise and of his uncertainty whether this occurred “in the body or out of the body”–certainly an odd way of speaking if he didn’t believe in an immaterial soul or if he believed in “soul sleep.”

 

[PRmerger]

The Bible clearly teaches that Elijah was taken to heaven in a fiery chariot (2 Kings 2:11) and that God resurrected Moses (Jude 1:9) Elijah was taken to heaven as a representation of those who will never die, but be taken to heaven by God at the 2nd coming, and Moses as a representation of those who will be resurrected at the 2nd coming.

Ok. But Moses died.

[BIBLEDRB]Deuteronomy 34:5[/BIBLEDRB]

So there *are *exceptions to those who die–not all fall asleep in the ground, right?

The Bible never says to pray to them or to ask them for intercession.

So is your position that if it’s not in the Bible then we ought not do this?

 

[Kliska]

Except that you have done just that, Kliska. You have taken the magisterium’s word that there are 27 books that belong in the NT.

No, PR, I haven’t. Do you know why the magisterium accepted the book of Hebrews even though it was contended? I do, because I’ve studied the book, the manuscripts that were available at the time, the ECF’s, biblical scholars, etc… You either believe that or you don’t. You apparently accept it because of the magisterium’s final decision, not me.

I await this, as well as the source for the correct number of Christian denominations, which I may then use, if I determine that it is valid and reliable.

PR, go study the logical idea of burden of proof. You made an assertive claim, the burden is on you.

 

[adrift]

For me, because the Bible teaches that when we die, we “sleep” in the ground until the resurrection at the 2nd Coming of Christ. I have no problem asking people around me to pray for me, and I have no problem NOT asking Mary or the saints to pray for me, because Mary and the saints, as pious and esteemed as they were, are dead, they are sleeping in the grave waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ. So for me to pray to Mary or the saints would be spiritualism.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecc 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Even Thessalonians 4:13-18 Talk about the dead being asleep… actually dead… and waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ

Some groups, such as Christadelphians, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Seventh-Day Adventists, claim that we are not conscious between the time of our death and our resurrection but that our souls either cease to exist or are asleep. They cite verses that picture death as a sleep (e.g. Dan 12:2, 1 Cor 15:51). How can we refute this?

Answer

These verses use what is known as phenomenological language, the language of appearances. Phenomenological language occurs when we describe something as it looks, irrespective of how it is. The classic example of phenomenological language is talk of the sun rising and setting. The sun appears to rise and set , but this motion is actually due to the rotation of the earth rather than to motion of the sun around the earth.

Verses that speak of the dead sleeping use phenomenological language. For example, Daniel 12:2 states, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” This image is of people getting up much as a sleeper rises in the morning. The sleep being discussed is phenomenological sleep, not literal sleep (Daniel is not talking about living people who sleep on the ground). Because dead people look like they are sleeping, especially when lying on their deathbeds (and notice that people often die on beds, enhancing the sleep analogy), the Bible often uses “sleep” as a euphemism for “death.” In fact, this euphemism is common today.

There are two versions of the “soul sleep” theory.

The Jehovah’s Witness claims that the soul ceases to exist at death and then is re-created by God at the resurrection. If their theory were true and there were no soul which survives death, it is difficult to see why the re-created “you” is not just a copy of you. It may have all your memories, but it is hard to see why it is not just a copy. If God had created this copy while you still existed, the fact it is a copy rather than the real you would be obvious.

If it is a copy, that causes problems of justice. Because you ceased to exist, you–the real you–were never punished for your sins or rewarded for your good deeds; you simply ceased to exist. Similarly, the copy of you which was created on the Last Day is then punished or rewarded for things it never did.

Once one has distinguished between the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ view and the view that claims that our souls simply sleep between death and resurrection, one can go on to refute these ideas by using the Bible. The following verses apply to both versions of the doctrine.

In Revelation 6:9-10, John writes, “When he [Christ] opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?’”

Here John sees the disembodied souls of early Christian martyrs. The fact they are disembodied is known because they have been slain. Thus disembodied souls exist. The fact they are conscious is known because they cry out to God for vengeance. Unconscious people can’t do that. Thus conscious, disembodied souls exist.

In Revelation 20:4 John sees these souls again: “Then I saw . . . the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God and who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Here again we have disembodied souls (they had been beheaded). John sees them coming to life to reign with Christ–hence they are in a pre-resurrection state. Some scholars argue that this is a spiritual resurrection rather than a physical one. Even if that were so, it would only strengthen the case for conscious, disembodied souls because, after having been beheaded, they would be reigning with Christ in heaven in a disembodied state.

 

[PRmerger]

No, PR, I haven’t. Do you know why the magisterium accepted the book of Hebrews even though it was contended? I do, because I’ve studied the book, the manuscripts that were available at the time, the ECF’s, biblical scholars, etc…

And what did you use to determine that it was theopneustos?

And are you saying you did this for the other 26 books in the NT?

 

[PRmerger]

PR, go study the logical idea of burden of proof. You made an assertive claim, the burden is on you.

Ok.

I rescind that statistic.

What is the correct number?

Please cite your source.

 

[PRmerger]

Ok.

I rescind that statistic.

What is the correct number?

Please cite your source.

And please make sure that it includes this church, as well as counts you, as you are a denomination unto yourself.