Protestants, why are you not Catholic?

[drblank1]

Well let look again:

Your question reminds me of the marriage at Cana. Jesus’ first miracle was at the request of His mother even though He said it was not His time. I can’t help believe that Jesus was telling us something about the influence of His mother.
Are you disagreeing that it was Jesus first miracle is that what is far reaching?When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”

4 (And) Jesus said to her, “Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.”
Are you disagreeing that Jesus didn’t say that His hour had not come. Is that what you think is far reaching?
5

His mother said to the servers, “Do whatever he tells you.”

6

5 Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washings, each holding twenty to thirty gallons.

7

Jesus told them, “Fill the jars with water.” So they filled them to the brim.

are you saying it was far reaching that Jesus did as His mother asked?

Far reaching or is it that you do not have an answer and a throw away line was the best you could do?

I thought you were relating this scripture in support of the Catholic Marian doctine which if you were, is far reaching. There were many who asked Jesus to do miracles and he complied. If not, then I apologize for my assumption. I wasn’t going to touch Marian doctine for the purposes of this thread. Although it is another prime reason why I am not Catholic, I’m not going there. I think that would be a thread in itself.

 

[drblank1]

. Then it is good then to have your wife pray for you, assuming she is alive.

If your don’t include your wife, then Lord help you.

 

[drblank1]

Spiritualism is a belief that spirits of the dead communicate with the living usually through a medium. This does go against scripture. Praying for one another does not. Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee.

Jesus communicated with the dead. He talked to Moses as witnessed by Peter, John and James.

The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth:

The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14).

These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4:

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

There is a lot here. But a couple of notes:

1. Just because there are no wizards and mediums doesn’t mean the practice of contacting spirits is acceptable. And just because the church deems it OK because they are spirits alive in the Lord, again, not acceptable.
2. God sent Moses and Elijah(who was raptured in the OT). Jesus did not pray to them but verbally spoke with them. Not at anytime does Jesus or the Apostles direct us to pray to anyone but God/Jesus. Catholocism has relegated prayer as a form of communcation to justify prayer to others outside of God or Jesus. But prayer is a form of worship. Plus, let’s say it is acceptable to pray to the saints or Mary. From a Biblical perspective, it is certainly optional since we are not directed to pray to them. Why would I want to do that in the first place? I would just chose to pray to Jesus. Who has God’s ear more and who is God more apt to listen to? Again, I’d rather talk to the CEO than my line supervisor.
3. First and most importantly, this is a John’s vision of one incident during the tribulation. Second, these are the 24 elders in heaven. The identity of these elders are not revealed and they are not called saints. Third, these are prayers OF the saints that arose FROM the earth to God, many of which have remained without answer for thousands of years and will find their fulfillment in the events to come (Rev. 19:1-2+).

In all God’s love my friend.

 

[adrift]

And your assumption is that is the Catholic church. My belief is that it is the universal church.

Only one Church existed that Church still exist. Many denominations came later for instance the Church of the Nazarene an evangelical Christian denomination that emerged from the 19th-century

 

[drblank1]

Only one Church existed that Church still exist. Many denominations came later for instance the Church of the Nazarene an evangelical Christian denomination that emerged from the 19th-century

And I view the Catholic church as a denomination of the universal (or catholic) church.

 

[drblank1]

I do want to say I am impressed with the Catholics on this forum who know the Bible. In my area, Catholics are not encouraged to read and study the Bible. Having these kinds of friendly debates with my Catholics friends never amounted to much. They can never defend their postion because of their lack of Biblical study. You should be commended for your knowledge of the Word of God.

 

[drblank1]

From a Catholic perspective only.

 

[adrift]

I thought you were relating this scripture in support of the Catholic Marian doctine which if you were, is far reaching. There were many who asked Jesus to do miracles and he complied. If not, then I apologize for my assumption. I wasn’t going to touch Marian doctine for the purposes of this thread. Although it is another prime reason why I am not Catholic, I’m not going there. I think that would be a thread in itself.

I was answering your question, a question I highlighted, about why you wouldn’t just go to Jesus. What you ignore is that Jesus said it was not His time. I don’t recall Him telling anyone else that and then performing a miracle only His mother.

 

[Porknpie]

And your assumption is that is the Catholic church. My belief is that it is the universal church.

Not just an assumption, an historical fact. St Ignatius was a disciple of St John

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. **Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” **Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

The Catholic Mass is described by St Ignatius and Justin Martyr a few years later. The Universal Church was the Catholic Church with the belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

 

[Amo_a_Jesus]

Again… someone criticizing Catholics with the same argument, Pray for the Saints… what would be you argument if a told you that I rarely pray to any Saint, I do love, respect and Honor the Most Blessing women, the Mother Of Jesus, Mary, saints are the best example for the love of Jesus and God, they give EVERYTHING to follow and love him, did you by any chance ever read a saint live? did you think they were invented from the Church?

The head of my Catholic Church is Jesus Christ, I don’t have any other savior, from his blood I was save.

It is true that some Catholics don’t read the Bible like we should, but not for the purpose to prove someone is wrong, the Bible was not made for Prove a Doctrine is the Word Of God,
If a Catholic don’t read the Bible, doesn’t mean the Church is bad or wrong.

If you think we are wrong Pray for us, that is the best Christian attitude

 

[drblank1]

Not just an assumption, an historical fact. St Ignatius was a disciple of St John

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. **Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” **Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

The Catholic Mass is described by St Ignatius and Justin Martyr a few years later. The Universal Church was the Catholic Church with the belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, This is My blood; and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

You are opening another can of worms. Let’s try not to get sidetracked with it, but you know as well as I that the 15 epistles of Ignatius are widely disputed and have many reasons to at the very least question their authenticity or authority.

But back to the subject, you cannot deny that the Holy Spirit is working in other denominations as well. What concerns me is the Catholic church says to believe everything that is taught by the church without question. My church tells us to test what is taught against prayer and study of the Word of God. 2 Peter specifically teaches all believers to stand close guard against heresy (and I’m not accusing the Catholic of heresy) and you test what the leaders of your church are teaching through prayer and study of God’s Word (a concept the Catholic church does not condone).

 

[drblank1]

Again… someone criticizing Catholics with the same argument, Pray for the Saints… what would be you argument if a told you that I rarely pray to any Saint, I do love, respect and Honor the Most Blessing women, the Mother Of Jesus, Mary, saints are the best example for the love of Jesus and God, they give EVERYTHING to follow and love him, did you by any chance ever read a saint live? did you think they were invented from the Church?

The head of my Catholic Church is Jesus Christ, I don’t have any other savior, from his blood I was save.

It is true that some Catholics don’t read the Bible like we should, but not for the purpose to prove someone is wrong, the Bible was not made for Prove a Doctrine is the Word Of God,
If a Catholic don’t read the Bible, doesn’t mean the Church is bad or wrong.

If you think we are wrong Pray for us, that is the best Christian attitude

I think this was a response to me. Please be clear, I am not criticizing anyone for praying to Mary or the saints. I am only expressing why I would not practice that tradition. I believe that if my faith is wholy based on God’s Word, then I cannot go wrong. There are Catholic traditions, that for me, I find in conflict with the Bible and that is why I will am not and will not be a Catholic. My wife, she is a devout Catholic and I love her and believe she is a Christian. For my son, my wife and I both expressed and taught our beliefs and he is Catholic but doesn’t observe most Catholic traditions not Biblically based. But I believe he is a child of God because of his faith in Jesus Christ.

Trust me, there are plenty of Protestant that don’t read and study the Bible on a daily basis as they should.

And every week, my church does pray for a different denomination. Not because they are different from us, but because they are our bothers and sisters in Jesus Christ and we want them to maximize the Great Commision.

 

[drblank1]

Thank you and I’m glad. Sometimes if you don’t quality beforehand, the accusation will arise.

 

[josie_L]

And your assumption is that is the Catholic church. My belief is that it is the universal church.

The word catholic does mean universal or “throughout the whole”, if you would like a better understanding, here’s St. Vincent of Lerins of 5th century (a Church father):

"I have continually given the greatest pains and diligence to inquiring, from the greatest possible number of men outstanding in holiness and in doctrine, how I can secure a type of fixed and, as it were, general, guiding principle for distinguishing the true Catholic Faith from the degraded falsehoods of heresy.

"And the answer that I receive is always to this effect: That if I wish, or indeed if anyone wishes, to detect the deceits of heretics that arise and to avoid their snares and to keep healthy and sound in a robust faith, we ought, with the Lord’s help, to fortify our faith in a twofold manner, first, that is, by the authority of God’s Law, then, by the tradition of the Catholic Church.

"Here, it may be, someone will ask: ‘Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and is in itself abundantly sufficient, what need is there to join to it the interpretation of the Church?’ The answer is that because of the profundity itself of Scripture, all men do not place the same interpretation upon it. The statements of the same writer are explained by different men in different ways, so much so that it seems almost possible to extract from it as many opinions as there are men. Novatian expounds in one way, Sabellius in another, Donatus in another, Arius, Eunomius and Macedonius in another, Photinus, Apollinaris and Priscillian in another, Jovinian, Pelagius and Caelestius in another, and latterly Nestorius in another. Therefore, because of the intricacies of error, which is so multiform, there is great need for the laying down of a rule for the exposition of Prophets and Apostles in accordance with the standard of the interpretation of the Catholic Church.

"Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly ‘Catholic,’ as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality, antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself, we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, Bishops and Doctors alike.

"What then will the Catholic Christian do, if a small part of the Church has cut itself off from the communion of the universal Faith? The answer is sure. He will prefer the healthiness of the whole body to the morbid and corrupt limb.

 

[drblank1]

The word catholic does mean universal or “throughout the whole”, if you would like a better understanding, here’s St. Vincent of Lerins of 5th century (a Church father):

cath·o·lic (/ˈkaTH(ə)lik)
adjective: catholic; adjective: Catholic1. including a wide variety of things; all-embracing.
synonyms: universal, diverse, diversified, wide, broad, broad-based, eclectic, liberal, latitudinarian; Morecomprehensive, all-encompassing, all-embracing, all-inclusive “her musical tastes are quite catholic”

antonyms: narrow
2. of the Roman Catholic faith.

“What then will the Catholic Christian do, if a small part of the Church has cut itself off from the communion of the universal Faith? The answer is sure. He will prefer the healthiness of the whole body to the morbid and corrupt limb.”

And I agree with this statement that those religions that call themselves “Christian” but do not hold true to the core faith that is new Covenant, are cut-off and morbid. But as I state again, my church, the Nazarene is part of the Christ’s catholic church and is indeed, inspired of the Holy Spirit. I see the Holy Spirit work in our church weekly as I am sure He does in the Catholic church as well.

 

[Amo_a_Jesus]

drblank, the prayer of the saints is one of the most common topic to attack or criticized the Catholic church, I don’t doubt that you are a great guy, like you my wife is attending another church, sometimes we have discussions, with the point where is that in the Bible you guys seems to be the winners, I mean it is really easy to say show me where is that in the Bible if I don’t see it is your church is wrong, again I Believe and I can be wrong, that the Bible were give to us to live as Christians, to listen the Word of God, to apply those teachings to our personal life, example, be a good day, good friend, etc… Respect and Honor God and everything we do, do it in the name of Jesus, there is not place on the bible where it say, you will get the word of God and you will open churches, if go to that, that is maybe so many times that church may have, that is not in the Bible. maybe lights, ministries, child care for the kids, cafeteria, Library, school, you can name it. so again If the Bible is the only rule of faith which your church is the real one, why we have Calvary chapel, Church by glades, Lakewood church, first Methodist, christian fellowship, community Christian, etc etc etc…

 

[Isaiah45_9]

And your assumption is that is the Catholic church. My belief is that it is the universal church.

You understand the irony in this post!

Catholic = Universal.

This is not an invisible Church and not in heaven either. This is a place where St. Paul might be delayed in getting to. This is a physical place, an address.

There is no assumption, It is the Catholic Church. Again, we have all the documentation to show our leaders to Christ and then to Peter.

It is your burden of proof to show otherwise.

 

[josie_L]

cath·o·lic (/ˈkaTH(ə)lik)
adjective: catholic; adjective: Catholic1. including a wide variety of things; all-embracing.
synonyms: universal, diverse, diversified, wide, broad, broad-based, eclectic, liberal, latitudinarian; Morecomprehensive, all-encompassing, all-embracing, all-inclusive “her musical tastes are quite catholic”

antonyms: narrow
2. of the Roman Catholic faith.

We will have to agree to disagree then.

We will agree to disagree on what the defination of catholic truly mean.

The word “catholic” was defined by the Church way before any dictionary came into use, in other words, if you want a true definition of the meaning then you’re going to have to rely on the Church fathers.

p.s. I am of the latin rite, therefore, Roman Catholic, but there were/are other rites which comprise the Catholic Church, i.e., Byzantine rite, therefore, Eastern Catholic . . .etc., the Roman Catholic Church is part of the Catholic (universal) Church. Those who have left the CC are regarded as such:

"What then will the Catholic Christian do, if a small part of the Church has cut itself off from the communion of the universal Faith? The answer is sure. He will prefer the healthiness of the whole body to the morbid and corrupt limb.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I think this was a response to me. Please be clear, I am not criticizing anyone for praying to Mary or the saints. I am only expressing why I would not practice that tradition. I believe that if my faith is wholy based on God’s Word, then I cannot go wrong. There are Catholic traditions, that for me, I find in conflict with the Bible and that is why I will am not and will not be a Catholic. My wife, she is a devout Catholic and I love her and believe she is a Christian. For my son, my wife and I both expressed and taught our beliefs and he is Catholic but doesn’t observe most Catholic traditions not Biblically based. But I believe he is a child of God because of his faith in Jesus Christ.

Trust me, there are plenty of Protestant that don’t read and study the Bible on a daily basis as they should.

And every week, my church does pray for a different denomination. Not because they are different from us, but because they are our bothers and sisters in Jesus Christ and we want them to maximize the Great Commision.

My friend, Biblically based traditions are something that did not exist prior to the 1,500’s. And they are in direct contradiction of the Bible itself.

 

[Porknpie]

You are opening another can of worms. Let’s try not to get sidetracked with it, but you know as well as I that the 15 epistles of Ignatius are widely disputed and have many reasons to at the very least question their authenticity or authority. Dr., are you really a Dr? If so of what type?

Dr., if not St. Ignatius, I can quote many other Early Church Fathers who refer to the Catholic Church, singular. Its consistent with Scripture itself whereby Jesus Christ established A Church, built upon St. Peter and promises to send the Holy Spirit to lead this Church to all Truth. Here’s a short article on St. Ignatius. That later Church Fathers quote him gives credence to his testimony.

But back to the subject, you cannot deny that the Holy Spirit is working in other denominations as well.