protestants. why are you the odd one out?

[JRKH]

Firstmode,
You have provided a great deal of data and quotes from individual church fathers.
Allow me to present the other side of this.

Councils approving the Canon:
**Council of Rome **(382)
Local church council under the authority of Pope Damasus, (366-384) gave a complete list of canonical books of the OT and NT which is identical with the list later approved by the Council of Trent.
Council of Hippo (393)
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)
Council of Carthage (397)
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)
Pope Innocent I, Bishop of Rome, 401-417 (405)
Responded to a request by Exuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, with a list of canonical books of Scripture; this list was the same as later approved by the Council of Trent.
Council of Carthage (419)
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)
The Council of Nicea (787)
The Council of Nicea II in 787 ratified the same canon as authoritative for the Eastern Churches.
Council of Florence, an ecumenical council (1441)
Complete list of OT and NT canon was drawn up; this list later adopted by the Fathers of the Council of Trent

Please note that, with the exception of one instance above, every one of these references are councils consisting of bishops of The Church acting on behalf of the faithful and under the prayerful guidance of the Holy Spirit. None of these councils approved a different canon, even though they could have. These councils, and their unanimity in their determination, represent, to my mind, a much more reliable and authoritative source than the writings of individuals.
It is also important to recognize that individuals who had issues with the books as approved, such as Jerome and others, submitted in humility their own personal opinions to that of the Will of the Holy Spirit expressed in Church Councils

Regardless of the opinions expressed by the various bishops, the facts remain that the 73 book canon was the one approved by the "Unified, Spirit guided Church at the end of the 4th century and reafirmed many times, by council during the 1000 years before the protestant reformation.

As A final thought on this matter consider this. It is the position of those who accept the 66 book canon that those who approved and used the 73 book canon “got it wrong” - that these people were “in error”. If such error is a possiblility then so is error in the sources you cite. In fact I submit that there is even more room for error in the writings of individuals than there is in the combined and prayerful deliberations of a Christian Church council.

I will say again that, I believe in a Spirit Guided Church, that is, a church comprised of Holy and “Spirit Guided” people. When each of these men discerns on their own, some error is possible. When a large enough group of them get together, not for personal gain, but for the good of The Church, then the chance of error decreases for their debates and communications help each to come to a fuller understanding of the desires of the Holy Spirit within the Church.
this is true, if the men who come together are truly interested in unity. If they are not, that is is pride takes over, then schism occurs. Something seen many times in the Protestant community - even from the early days.

Peace
James

 

[Truthseeker77]

ok here goes. jude1:9, is one. and jude 1:14-15 actually he quoted from 2 books, that we no longer have with us today. one is the assumption of moses, that would be 1:9. the second is 1:14-15 and a direct quote from the book of enoch. of which we have discovered fragments of. the quotes from Jesus i will get back to you on so i can make sure my references are correct. by the way. are you comparing Jude to satan? Peace

Thanks for the references…

First off, no, I was not comparing Jude to satan. I realize I didn’t make my point clear, I apologize (should have taken more care to do so). My point in saying that is Satan uses the Bible verses to manipulate. Careful how you match up quotes with quoters. With that said, the assumption of Moses providing an account of the dispute between Michael the Archangel and the devil about the body of Moses does not prove that Jude quoted from it. We must look to the books we have now. There is a reason that God did not let some survive. Also, we must compare any other book than the (canonical) Word of God to see if it contradicts in any way. If it does, it must not be taken as God breathed.

You are right on verses 14-15, saying that a quote from the book of Enoch was written. Does this mean Jude considers them on the same level as scripture? No. Look at verses 14 and 15 again, "Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” …
…Now look at Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

God tells us that not all that have prophesied will enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Enoch may have prophesied on occasion but again, there is a reason his writings did not become canonical.

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut, thank you.

 

[benidict]

Thanks for the references…

First off, no, I was not comparing Jude to satan. I realize I didn’t make my point clear, I apologize (should have taken more care to do so). My point in saying that is Satan uses the Bible verses to manipulate. Careful how you match up quotes with quoters. With that said, the assumption of Moses providing an account of the dispute between Michael the Archangel and the devil about the body of Moses does not prove that Jude quoted from it. We must look to the books we have now. There is a reason that God did not let some survive. Also, we must compare any other book than the (canonical) Word of God to see if it contradicts in any way. If it does, it must not be taken as God breathed.

You are right on verses 14-15, saying that a quote from the book of Enoch was written. Does this mean Jude considers them on the same level as scripture? No. Look at verses 14 and 15 again, "Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” …
…Now look at Matthew 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

God tells us that not all that have prophesied will enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Enoch may have prophesied on occasion but again, there is a reason his writings did not become canonical.

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut, thank you.

hi truthseeker. very good. im glad i mis interpreted you. we could go alot further on this, but it would be time consuming and tedius. and serve no good purpose. i think on this point we can agree to just disagree. its all good. your insights and (name removed by moderator)ut is always welcome. Peace to you and yours.