Protestants -- why aren't you Orthodox?

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VociMike said:
They aren’t Catholic, they don’t teach many of the “errors” you charge Catholicism with, and they trace themselves back to Pentecost. So why are you not Orthodox?
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Because they don’t have Left Behind books, man centered “worship” songs or overhead projectors. Nor do they have wonderbread and thimbles full of grapejuice once a month. 😉

Mel
 
VociMike said:
Then let me just ask the question, does the Orthodox Church teach grave error?

If it does, what errors are those?

If it doesn’t, then it is both without error and it traces itself back to Pentecost, so why would you not want to join it?
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When I left the Episcopal Church I did look very briefly at the Orthodox Church. From what I saw, many of the objections that I have to Catholic doctrine would also be a hurdle if I were to convert to Orthodoxy. Among these are the role of scripture vs. tradition, faith/works, the BVM as being without sin, issues relating to the communion of saints, etc. I suppose Papal supremacy and infallability cease to be problems but, in exchange, I’d pick up the dispute regarding the filioque. From a cultural standpoint, the Orthodox Church would be quite different from what I am used to coming out of the Methodist and Episcopal traditions. Not that this difference would be determinative or insurmountable though.

You want to know the real reason why I stopped looking at Orthodoxy? I have nothing against the Orthodox Church per se. Still, ultimately I was convinced that if I ever found myself becoming comfortable with the Orthodox teachings on most of the issues referenced above, I might as well just convert to Catholicism. In other words, converting to the Catholic Church would be easier personally and the culture shock would be less.
 
UBERROGO said:
Orthodox Jew or Orthodox Catholics? I dont know of any other Orthodox (muslims?) so your comment that Orthodox arent catholics leaves me bewildered to say the least.
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Orthodox Christians (eg the Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox churches) are not Catholic - they split with Rome in about the 1050s and are certainly not under Papal authority.
 
VociMike said:
They aren’t Catholic, they don’t teach many of the “errors” you charge Catholicism with, and they trace themselves back to Pentecost. So why are you not Orthodox?
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My serious answer:

This is the very short version. But basically it comes down to “you shall know them by their fruit”. My experience with Orthodoxy is that the converts are wonderful Christians but the fruits of the Orhtodox churches in general for many centuries now, as in charity and Evangelism and offering something non-insulated to the world, compared to the Catholic church and Evangelical Protestants is sorely lacking. I think the Orthodox Church has done very little outside of it’s own parishes. There are many exceptions to this of course. And I do believe Orthodoxy to be truly Christian and a great tradition, but her seperation from western Christendom has hampered her mission for centuries. The converse is not true. That is completely anecdotal, but there it is.
 
VociMike said:
They aren’t Catholic, they don’t teach many of the “errors” you charge Catholicism with, and they trace themselves back to Pentecost. So why are you not Orthodox?
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  1. Because I don’t think the only Christians in Heaven wear beards and funny clothes and speak in archaic laguages.
  2. Because Eastern Orthodoxy is rotten with Pelagianism.
  3. Because I’m an orthodox Episcopalian.
 
LilyM said:
Orthodox Christians (eg the Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox churches) are not Catholic - they split with Rome in about the 1050s and are certainly not under Papal authority.
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Interesting opinion.
 
UBERROGO said:
They tell me that the RCC protested them so I guess that makes you protestants also.-ha!
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They do contend to be wronged.

If you want to call Catholics protesters, that is fine.

Its your right to reinvent history of course.
 
rr1213 said:
Edwin, good to see you making the rounds here again.
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The semester’s over!
If you don’t mind saying, what do you mean by Orthodoxy having an Eucharistic ecclesiology that works fine in an Anglican context?
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One ecclesiological school of thought within Orthodoxy, particularly popular among the Russians, holds that the Church exists most fundamentally at the local level, in the community led by a local bishop and gathered around the Eucharistic table. The universal/Catholic Church is fully present in each local Eucharistic community.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
One ecclesiological school of thought within Orthodoxy, particularly popular among the Russians, holds that the Church exists most fundamentally at the local level, in the community led by a local bishop and gathered around the Eucharistic table. The universal/Catholic Church is fully present in each local Eucharistic community.

Edwin
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Ah, I see how that could be adopted to the Anglican model.
 
I’ve brought up a similar question before,without receiving an answer. The two most ancient churches in the world, Catholic and Orthodox, were for a millineum the only Church in existance. Each developed separately from one another, but both have nearly identical teachings and structures. Both claim apostolic succession, and each have seven sacraments, infant baptism, priests, bishops, etc. Doesn’t this bother Protestants?

It seems that Protestants do indeed claim the entire Christian world was wrong up until the 16th century and needed to be reinvented. Wouldn’t this also necessarily mean that the “gates of hell” successfully prevailed against Christ’s Church from the very beginning?
 
For what it’s worth, I think that Catholics make much too much about the “gates of hell” promise. You take it to mean that never–not once–at any time whatsoever–will hell and hell’s ruler prevail over the Church. I think that most Protestants see this as meaning that death will not prevail because Christ has delivered us from death and hell. Also, even though our eventual victory through Christ is guaranteed, it does not mean that there shall never be setbacks. If the Catholic attitude towards this biblical passage were applied in the secular world, say the historical context of the second world war, you might phrase the promise as “the Nazis shall never prevail over the Allies”. And they didn’t…but it does not mean that the Allies never lost a battle or scrimmage…
 
rr1213 said:
For what it’s worth, I think that Catholics make much too much about the “gates of hell” promise. You take it to mean that never–not once–at any time whatsoever–will hell and hell’s ruler prevail over the Church. I think that most Protestants see this as meaning that death will not prevail because Christ has delivered us from death and hell. Also, even though our eventual victory through Christ is guaranteed, it does not mean that there shall never be setbacks. If the Catholic attitude towards this biblical passage were applied in the secular world, say the historical context of the second world war, you might phrase the promise as “the Nazis shall never prevail over the Allies”. And they didn’t…but it does not mean that the Allies never lost a battle or scrimmage…
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So what IS the Church then, if it was not the Church that existed for 1500 years. Is it simply the Body of believers? If so, what are the common beliefs that bind them together? How were those beliefs determined if not by an established authority?
 
I’ve seen a lot of fundamentalist literature that implies exact that point…that it’s obvious the “gates of hell” prevailed over the Catholic Church so it can’t be the one, true Church…:rolleyes:

I think the main reason people stay away from the Orthodox churches in general is b/c they don’t evangelize as much. It’s something you have to be born into or marry into…

Interestingly enough, the local Greek Orthodox church here where I live is headed by a Lutheren convert priest. He drives around with a bumpersticker saying “The Orthodox Church-since 33 AD.”

But we have two Orthodox churches:

A Greek Orthodox gosaintgeorge.org/

and an Antiochian one stnicholasorthodox.org/
 
Maybe the young men that want to be priests are uncomfortable with the idea that one day they will end up with a long beard if they climb the ladder beyond parish priest if they go Orthodox. I dunno, just hit me. But of course, the trade off is if they can get married before they commit thats always a consideration to factor in. And the money saved on razors.
 
I am a Catholic, but the thing that I have noticed about Orthodox Christians (I know a few) is that they belong to “nationality parishes”. I know Greek and Russian Orthodox people. Everybody in their parish is either Greek or Russian. They still do services in those languages. It’s more like the Catholic Church used to be back in the 19th and early 20th century. So I wouldn’t think of going to a Orthodox Church because I am not part of the ethnic group that attends them. Whereas, Catholic and Protestant Churches in my area for the most part do not have any ethnic affliation (a few exceptions like Italian, Polish, German, or Korean parishes). The majority of Catholic and Protestant Churches have a mixture of many ethnic groups and don’t actually have “Russian” or “Greek” or “Serbian” in the name of the Church.
 
rr1213 said:
There are not many Catholics in Alabama. In contrast, take a look at the Churches available in Boston. I would expect to see plenty of Catholic parishes there. Y’all are predominately a regional faith in this country, although I expect that will change over time especially with the influx of Catholic Latinos.
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So many Catholic Churches in Boston. So few good ones. Trust me I grew up in the Ahchdiaseez.
 
Contarini said:
I’m not the kind of Protestant you have in mind (I don’t think Catholicism has any more errors than any brand of Protestantism–fewer than most and maybe fewer than any), but this is a serious issue for me, so I’ll answer it.

I’m not Orthodox because I find Orthodox ecclesiology unconvincing. Orthodoxy either sets itself up as a less plausible alternative to Catholicism, or embraces a “Eucharistic ecclesiology” that from my perspective works fine in a Protestant (especially Anglican) context.

I tend to believe that the Orthodox are (to use traditional Protestant language) the “purest” brand of Christianity out there on the whole (with the huge exception of church-state relations–another reason to prefer Catholicism). But I can’t believe that they are the One True Church. I’d love to see Protestantism look more like Orthodoxy (which would make us look more like Catholicism as well, of course). But I doubt I’ll ever convert to it. (I’d be happy to be part of a corporate reunion with the Orthodox–or for that matter with Rome!)

Edwin
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Well said, Edwin. I agree completely. Now go post this on the hill where the crow used to fly. I dare ya. 😉
 
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