E
Eden
Guest
It was after Christ.
This article is about the myth of Jabneh and the Old Testament Canon:
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp
- Status
This article is about the myth of Jabneh and the Old Testament Canon:
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp
M
mozart-250
Guest
Wait a minute here…
The Septuagint is a Greek translation isn’t it.
Why would Jesus and the apostles use a Greek translation when another translation is readily available in their native language. That makes absolutely no sense.
O
O.S.Luke
Guest
It’s fun to watch Catholics fight over the Scriptures as much as it is to watch Protestants. Any Catholics know the different between Protocanonical and Deuterocanonical?
BTW… The first edition of the King James Version of the Bible included all of the deuterocanonical books.
Hebrew canon, Septuagint, Old Latin, Vulgate, Eastern Orthodox, Synod of the Greek Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate… my seminary education was worth the house I could have bought instead after all…
O+
–
“Will you not awaken from your foolish philosophy, dispel your futile reasonings, adopt a mind appropriate to your years, philosophize according to the truth of what is beneficial, and have compassion on your old age by honoring my humane advice? For consider this: if there is some power watching over this religion of yours, it will excuse you from any transgression that arises out of compulsion.” - 4 Macc. 5.11-13
BTW… The first edition of the King James Version of the Bible included all of the deuterocanonical books.
Hebrew canon, Septuagint, Old Latin, Vulgate, Eastern Orthodox, Synod of the Greek Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate… my seminary education was worth the house I could have bought instead after all…
O+
–
“Will you not awaken from your foolish philosophy, dispel your futile reasonings, adopt a mind appropriate to your years, philosophize according to the truth of what is beneficial, and have compassion on your old age by honoring my humane advice? For consider this: if there is some power watching over this religion of yours, it will excuse you from any transgression that arises out of compulsion.” - 4 Macc. 5.11-13
P
Pixie_Dust
Guest
Greek was the common written language at the time. If you could read and write at all, you could read and write Greek. They spoke Aramaic, but they read Greek. It’s not unusual. I know a Marine who married a Japanese woman he met while stationed in Okinawa. She told me they spoke Japanese, but read and wrote Chinese.
M
mozart-250
Guest
You mean they all spoke Hebrew but read Greek? That sounds messed up but whatever. It sounds incredulous to believe that Peter, being a common fisherman, was bilingual. I took a year of French and German in college and have forgotten them both. But maybe if I google this I can find somebody that doesn’t have an agenda that can confirm your claims.
I would have to ask what is the purpose of having a Hebrew Masoretic text if everyone read Greek.
FWIW using google I read an article that claimed “jot” and “tittle” that Christ refered to were components of the Hebrew language. Of course this article also had an agenda and I have no way of independently verifying their claims either.
Sheesh, for a newbie in this stuff I’m learning alot. Probably too much.
M
mozart-250
Guest
Interesting read.
I sort of agree that Jabneh is not the smoking gun here. Still absent any evidence to the contrary, my natural inclination would be that it would be ratifying existing practice, not inventing something new out of thin air.
That is sort of the logic you guys use with the assumption of Mary that became dogma 1950 or so.
Now we have the Septuagint that is written in Greek that has one set of books. And we have the Masoretic text written in Hebrew that has another set of books.
If I had to make an educated guess as to which one Jesus used, I would guess the Masoretic text only because it was written in the language He was raised and fluent in (and the same could be said about His disciples). But then it would be great if I could find an authority that does not have an agenda that could confirm this.
P
Pixie_Dust
Guest
Who’s fighting?
Yes, and I also know that Hebrews, James, 2 Peter and Revelation are deuterocanonical NT books. Revelation almost didn’t make the canon at all, so many people were opposed to it.
And publishers only excluded them later on to save money on ink and paper. There was even a law passed (after Luther, Calvin and company started their own denominations) forbidding anyone to print a Bible without the deuterocanon. They weren’t officially removed from the Protestant canon until 1885-ish.
Have a regard to preserve unity, than which nothing is better. Bear with all, even as the Lord does with thee. Support all in love, as also thou doest. Give thyself to prayer without ceasing. ~Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp
P
Pixie_Dust
Guest
He would need to know Greek ESPECIALLY if he was a fisherman doing business with Greeks! He would know Aramaic because that was his “mother tongue.” I promise you I have NO agenda. I’m a little hurt by your accusation, frankly. You asked a question, I answered it, based on the studying that I have done over the last three years. I had to know the answers to the same questions you are asking before I would stick a toe in the Tiber. If someone had told me 2 years ago that I’d be anticipating my Catholic confirmation next month, I’d probably still be laughing.
Well, you know, in those days they didn’t have to learn how to operate a computer or a cell phone. They didn’t sit around watching much TV
or worrying about the thugs in school. It sounds messed up to your 21st Century brain, sure. If you hear two or three languages from birth or at least a young age you can become fluent quickly. A year in college is probably the worst time to attempt to learn a new language. Next time a foreign missionary comes to your church with his 4 hour slide show, ask him how hard it was for him to learn the language in his country vs how hard it was for his children. Young brains learn new languages better. It is a fact. If those Jewish boys who would grow up to “turn the world upside down” spent their early years hearing Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic spoken regularly, I imagine they’d have a pretty good handle on the languages. 
B
BrandenRush
Guest
The apocrypha that you are referring to IS included in our Bibles although we do not teach church practices from those books. The reasons are because those books do not parallel to the remainder of scripture like the rest of the books do. The apocrypha also contains many chronological errors which makes it unreliable as a source of truth. It wasn’t until the Reformation that the books were identified as such and then the proper actions were finally able to be taken without the almighty wrath of Rome oppressing it.In the late 4th century by the Councils of Carthage and Hippo, the Canon of the Bible was decided. The books were:
*
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth, 4 books of Kings, 2 books of Chronicles, Job, Psalter of David, 5 books of Solomon, 12 books of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, 2 books of Esdras, 2 books of Maccabees, and in the New Testament: 4 books of Gospels, 1 book of Acts of the Apostles, 13 letters of the Apostle Paul, 1 of him to the Hebrews, 2 of Peter, 3 of John, 1 of James, 1 of Jude, and the Apocalypse of John.*
Why do you, the Protestant Christians, have an altered Bible? What are the reasons? Did the Holy Spirit come upon the Reformers and tell them to dispel certain books?
If you believe the Bible is inspired, why not have the whole Bible?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_of_the_Bible
Discuss!
In Pax Christi
Andrew
BTW, I used Wikipedia, because I know that if I posted a Catholic site with the same information, I would be given labels, and accusations would be made…it just wouldn’t be a pretty sight.
H
Harpazo
Guest
Wow, that wasn’t littered with anti-catholicism at all…When the canon was completed, it was done. Finito. For someone to have the audacity, and basically proclaim that they are above the Holy Spirit and remove certain books, is beyond me!
What sect of Protestantism do you belong to where you have the deuterocanonicals in your Bible? Just curious. I never knew there were any that recognized it.
In Pax Christi
Andrew
B
BrandenRush
Guest
Ya know, some of you Catholics love to call others ignorant of your faith but yet you are ignorant of other faiths yourself. This is very hypocritical and doesn’t lend itself to decent dialogue at all. I am Anglican and an ex-Catholic.
H
Harpazo
Guest
I’m not sure how you deduced a conclusion such as that, but you are inclined to believe whatever you wish. For an ex-Catholic, you seem to be pretty bitter towards the Church…
Note, I was referring to Luther in my post, not yourself in regards to the removal of Scripture. Why you are making generalizations about Catholics isn’t fair to say the least. We are all learning, everyday. That’s the beauty of being a Catholic.
In Pax Christi
Andrew
B
BrandenRush
Guest
You have to make those kinds of generalizations because two Catholics sitting in the same pew every Sunday will disagree with each other on several issues in the church. I know because I have experienced it many times over.I’m not sure how you deduced a conclusion such as that, but you are inclined to believe whatever you wish. For an ex-Catholic, you seem to be pretty bitter towards the Church…
Note, I was referring to Luther in my post, not yourself in regards to the removal of Scripture. Why you are making generalizations about Catholics isn’t fair to say the least. We are all learning, everyday. That’s the beauty of being a Catholic.
In Pax Christi
Andrew
H
Harpazo
Guest
Just because people disagree doesn’t make something false. That’s rather odd logic. Christ didn’t agree with the Pharisees. Does that make Christianity false? The Catholic in the pew who is in full line with Rome, is the one that is correct. It’s all black and white, no gray area.
Don’t assume, because you know what happens when you assume. You seem like a smart man, so why would you make gross generalizations?
Anyways…back on topic…
We know the canon to be concrete from the beginning. Why should anyone change that. Didn’t St. Augustine say there is no excuse for schism? How ironic it is that Luther was an Augustinian…
In Pax Christi
Andrew
B
BrandenRush
Guest
Wait just a minute, doesn’t catholic teaching require the faithful to be in concurrence on matters of faith such as the resurrection and the assumption? I think that you are trying to pull a fast one here.
H
Harpazo
Guest
Of course the faithful are obliged to believe what the Magisterium says, that doesn’t mean they always will. The Holy See can’t force people to believe anything. It’s called faith, and we choose to believe. You are aware that we do have free will, right? If that weren’t the case there would be no Anglican church.
Note also, you aren’t obligated to post in this topic, yet you do anyways. Why you are so bitter, I don’t know. I’ll pray for you in my rosary tonight.
In Pax Christi
Andrew
- Status