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St.Eric
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Mere BELIEF in Christ profits you NOTHING. For even the “devils BELIEVE and tremble at his name.” What the devils DON’T do is BELIEVE in him AND DO/FOLLOW his COMMANDMENTS.
Protestants: Why don't you follow his command? "Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood"
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JoeyWarren
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I’ll second that. But he will claim that the Translators of the KJV were filled with the Holy Ghost and therefore just as Infallible as the the original writers during the writings on both account?
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St.Eric
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It is digested and nourishes the Soul. what good is a steak or a salad if it is temporary and is digested? Hmm, it provides life for the physical body. What good is the Flesh of Christ if it temporary and digested? Hmm, it provides life for the Soul, the spirtual body. It is the WORD that became FLESH and that FLESH is SPIRITUAL LIFE indeed.
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ruzz
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After I posted that, I knew this would cause this thread to go off track. I was commenting on John 6 and now we are debating early church fathers. You added early church fathers and I gave my reasons why I don’t use them. Some people get very upset when you don’t recognize early church fathers as 1st generation experts. This is no exception.And the reformers got it right? Their theology is not flawed?
These Church Fathers you so easily dismiss must be bothersome to you because they corroborate Catholic and Orthodox teaching and interpretation of the Scriptures. And as I quoted to you earlier, St Ignatius was a disciple of St John the Apostle. Do you really believe that St John taught this incorrectly to Ignatius?The teaching of the Real Presence is clear and continuous from the beginning.
Oh well, you’ll believe what you must.
Peace,
Mickey
The first reformers were Catholics and believed in the Eucharist. I think Lutherans today still do. So I don’t take their word for it either.
Ok, I’ll indulge in a little tangent away from John 6 and what Jesus commanded in order to defend my statements.
RE: Ignatius.
For my job, I have have needed to train many people in my day. They in turn have had to train people. From experience, the further from the source, the more distorted the training becomes. Even direct trainees have misunderstood BIG TIME and gotten what I tought them wrong. Therefore, Ignatius is not immune from this phenomenon. He could have VERY easily gotten it wrong and perpetuated it from thereon.
That is why I use the words in red whenever possible. Apostles second. After that, it goes steadily downhill in my credibility book.
Now, back to John 6. According to Jesus literal words, after eating Him, we should never be hungry again. Or is that a metaphor?
Why didn’t anyone ask for some of this “flesh” He was offering? If I thought it would give me eternal life, I would be begging for Jesus for some.
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ruzz
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I agree. You are correct.
The original Greek is the only “unflawed” word. Any translation is a compromise. A good reason for Christians to become versed in Greek. Unfortunately, I have a long way to go.
Do you read from the Greek?
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ruzz
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Wrong
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JoeyWarren
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Wrong? I would have assumed you to be one of those KJVO types. Well if you are not, accept my apologies.
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ruzz
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Good answer. Thank you.
Unfortunately, after 30 years of eating the Eucharist, my soul still wasn’t nourished. But that was me.
That leads to another question. How often do you have to eat to remain nourished. Once a day, 3 times a day, once a week. How often did the early Christians eat?
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Shiann
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I think it would benefit you to review what Catholics actually believe happens during the Miracle of Transubstantiation. We do not eat flesh in the cannabalistic sense when we consume the Eucharist… it is a SUBSTANCE change. I won’t derail the topic more than to offer you a link to a previous thread on Transubstantiation.
Jesus stated:
64 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life.
He was speaking to that which you are questioning here. The flesh of his dead body would profit nothing (cannibalism). It is His risen Body which nurishes. And that is what we consume at the Eucharist. Catholics don’t consume the Body and Blood he offered at the Last Supper- but the Body and Blood that was Sacrificed on the Cross and that which was RISEN! The Divine Humanity of God!
Spiritually speaking absolutely.
Oh I see, you are one of those… hmmm well. I would point you in the direction of the first portion of John 6 where Jesus fed 5000…
Exactly. He provides that spiritual nurishment for our Salvation through the Eucharist.
They freely choose to reject what Jesus was telling them. The fact that they are not clawing their way to Jesus offers some insight as to the incredulity they were experiencing at His words. They wouldn’t believe His words.
Simply:
52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread
that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.
Mark 9
22 And Jesus saith to him: If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
I fear that I could spend a good amount of time with you on this subject. I also fear that my words would fall short. There are people who have explained this more succinctly and beautifully than I ever could. I encourage you to read at least, the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding this.
In short though, there is a Sacramental gift of Grace that extends onto those who consume the Eucharist in Faith. With that Grace we are brought closer to God and more open to His presence in our lives.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.
He’s implementing a change right here. He’s asking the Jews of the time to throw down Jewish Tradition and open their hearts to the New Testament… Jesus… and follow Him.
That my friend, is change.
God be with you.
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ruzz
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No apology needed. I’m sure there are posters who have said similar things who are KJVO.
BTW, what is a KJVO?
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JoeyWarren
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Do you realize that statement is in essence “VERY CATHOLIC”
Patrick Madrid once said during a Debate on Sola Scriptura that:
You are the first Protestant I have heard say that about looking to the Red Letters first. God has got you pointed in the right direction at least.
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Shiann
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Eat AND Believe.
Eucharist and FAITH. These two go hand in hand. We have free will- how can God work in your life if your Faith in Him is hampered as not to doubt He can offer you Grace through His Living Sacrifice?
The more you partake of the Eucharist- the more Grace is bestowed. Everyday is wonderful. But the Church does not decide how often one needs to consume the Eucharist.
We must keep holy the Sabbath by attending Sunday Mass.
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JoeyWarren
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King James Version Only? But I am sure you already knew that?
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JoeyWarren
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If I had a church nearby, I would spend nearly every lunch consuming Christ.
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Shiann
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Me too
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ruzz
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If going to Red letters first is Catholic, then I have even more respect for Catholics. However, many Catholics that I know (repeat I know), first look to the modern day leaders such as the pope to see what they think. But that is yet another topic and we’ve spun this one all over the place.
Yes, Christ’s words hold the most value.You are the first Protestant I have heard say that about looking to the Red Letters first. God has got you pointed in the right direction at least.
For the record, I’m not a protestant. I’m not protesting the church. I’m defending why I “don’t obey Christ’s commandment”. I think I do obey. The question is if the Eucharist is a commandment.
Thank you for your sincere responses. I will look at some of the links provided to obtain a clearer understanding of transubstantiation.
No, I really never heard of KJVO. Learn something every day. I really wish I were fluent in Greek and Hebrew.
God Bless - Have a great weekend.
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St.Eric
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Well, in the words of St. Paul:
1 Corinth 11:26-30
26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. 30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.
This may answer the reason you were not nourished.
The second question- how often? As often as you are able to faithfully receive! Anyone who discerns the body and blood would want to do no less. I received this morning at 6AM. Glory be to God!
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St.Eric
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No, unfortunatley I am not bright enough to do so. I have to use a translation and the Magisterium to show me the way.
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Klm
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Okay, I was a protestant, Assemblies of God, to be exact. We taught (that’s the clerical “we” I studied to be a youth pastor) that Holy Communion was symbolic. Jesus also called himself a gate - and he never clarified the teaching. (See John 10). Was he a literal piece of wood? Was he saying he was? No. Okay. I think the biggest problem for protestants in accepting the literal teaching on the Eucharist is semantics. I had a hard time with it until I read one of Scot Hahn’s books. (I forget which one now). In it he talks of the Real Presence. Protestants think Catholics teach that the host and wine become the body and blood of Christ in such a literal way that it looks like flesh and blood, tastes like flesh and blood, etc. And when a lot of Catholics talk about the Eucharist, forgive me, but that’s what it sounds like. Protestants don’t understand that. The Real Presence is a concept they can understand phrased in a language they can comprehend. Trust me, Catholics speak a whole different language than protestants do and if you don’t know the terms, and what we mean by them, it’s easy to misunderstand. It’s much like walking into a Spanish mass when you only know “no habla espanol.”
The Real Presence is something they can understand, and a lot would agree with. The host and wine still look like bread and wine. Still taste like them. But just as we are changed when we begin a relationship with Christ, so the elements of Holy Communion change. You can’t see the change, but it’s there and real. When dealing with protestants, remember, it’s important to speak their language because they don’t understand yours.
The Real Presence is something they can understand, and a lot would agree with. The host and wine still look like bread and wine. Still taste like them. But just as we are changed when we begin a relationship with Christ, so the elements of Holy Communion change. You can’t see the change, but it’s there and real. When dealing with protestants, remember, it’s important to speak their language because they don’t understand yours.
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JSmitty2005
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As Catholics, we worship the Eucharist as the same Body and Blood of Christ that became incarnate in the womb of the BVM and died on Calvary for our sins. Just because the Eucharist doesn’t look like that doesn’t make it untrue. Similarly, Jesus didn’t look like God when He walked this earth but He certainly was.
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