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mrs_abbott
Guest
There’s even stories around about consecrated hosts getting smashed and then bleeding. Those stories aren’t linked to any credible source to be used as solid proof, for the scientific types.
Protestants: Why don't you follow his command? "Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood"
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JSmitty2005
Guest
There are even stories about consecrated Hosts being lost in castles and whatnot for hundreds of years and when they’re found, they haven’t decayed one bit whereas unleavened bread typically would.
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Eden
Guest
The New Covenant which Jesus brought us means that He created annointed new leaders - the apostles and their successors with Peter as the rock. The Old Testament shows the early structure of authority of the priesthood before the Savior came:
Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.
Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.
Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally “anointed” priests in “ordination” to minister in the priests’ “office.”
Numbers 16:40 - shows God’s intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.
Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God’s intention that, through the “laying on of hands,” one is commissioned and has authority.
Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.
Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.
Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die.
Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a “protestant” rebellion against God’s chosen Moses in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood, and Korah and his followers perished. (This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents today.) Sirach 7:29-30 - with all your soul fear the Lord and honor His priests, love your Maker and do not forsake His ministers. God is not threatened by the authority He gives His children! God, as our Loving Father, invites us to participate in His plan of salvation with His Son Jesus. Without authority in the Church, there is error, chaos and confusion.
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Eden
Guest
Please investigate the Eucharistic miracles on this site:
www.therealpresence.org
Sienna, Italy – August 17, 1730
Consecrated Hosts remain perfectly preserved for over 250 years. Rigorous scientific experiments have not been able to explain this phenomena.
Amsterdam, Holland 1345
Eucharist thrown into fire overnight miraculously is unscathed.
therealpresence.org/eucharst/images/euch723s.gif
Blanot, France – March 31, 1331
The Eucharist falls out of a woman’s mouth onto an altar rail cloth. The priest tries to recover the Host but all that remains is a large spot of blood the same size and dimensions as the wafer.
Bolsena-Orvieta, Italy
Again, a priest has difficulties believing in the Real Presence, and blood begins seeping out of the Host upon consecration. Because of this miracle, Pope Urban IV commissioned the feast of Corpus Christi, which is still celebrated today.
therealpresence.org/eucharst/images/euchmn2s.gif
Lanciano, Italy – 8th century A.D.
A priest has doubts about the Real Presence; however, when he consecrates the Host it transforms into flesh and blood. This miracle has undergone extensive scientific examination and can only be explained as a miracle. The flesh is actually cardiac tissue which contains arterioles, veins, and nerve fibers. The blood type as in all other approved Eucharistic miracles is type AB! Histological micrographs are shown.
Physician Tells of Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano - (Zenit)
“Dr. Edoardo Linoli says he held real cardiac tissue in his hands, when some years ago he analyzed the relics of the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, Italy.”
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mrs_abbott
Guest
Oops, I guess I should have clarified. I meant that it’s not really incorporated into our religion. I never hear priests talk about that kind of stuff.
Thanks for the information, though. It’ll provide me with some interesting reading.
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ruzz
Guest
And what if a failable man makes a mistake that cannot be reversed? What if this occured 1900 years ago?
I am not bound to any minister’s interpretation.
I can CLAIM to have the gift of infailablity, but that’s not the same as having it.
When did Christ claim the apostles (and their sucessors) would be infailable?
When did the concept of infailablity begin?
-Pax Vobiscum
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JSmitty2005
Guest
Please don’t base your view of Catholicism on what you hear priests talk about.Oops, I guess I should have clarified. I meant that it’s not really incorporated into our religion. I never hear priests talk about that kind of stuff.
Thanks for the information, though. It’ll provide me with some interesting reading.
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
What if fallible men compiled the Bible? Then you wouldn’t even know whether or not the verses you are quoting are really the Word of God.
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Eden
Guest
What if? But as a Catholic, I believe the Holy Spirit has protected the Church from teaching error on faith and morals for 2,000 years.
Yes. But you and your ministers do not even claim it. So, you accept that your teachings might be in error. It doesn’t worry you that your understanding or your minister’s teaching on your salvation may be in error?
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Eden
Guest
From the beginning. It seems you are asking about when the infallibility of the Church was defined. Infallibility of the Church in scriptures:
The Church is Infallible and Supernatural
Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 - this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)
Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the “Way” prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.
Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.
Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.
Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.
Matt. 28:20 - Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus’ presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.
Mark 8:33 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to down play Peter’s authority. This does not make sense. In this verse, Jesus rebukes Peter to show the import of His Messianic role as the Savior of humanity. Moreover, at this point, Peter was not yet the Pope with the keys, and Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his teaching. Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding.
Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ’s infallible authority.
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Eden
Guest
Luke 22:32 - Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus’ prayer for Peter’s faith is perfectly efficacious, and** this allows Peter to teach the faith without error (which means infallibly).**
John 11:51-52 - some non-Catholics argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus’ death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.
1 & 2 Peter - for example, Peter denied Christ, he was rebuked by his greatest bishop (Paul), and yet he wrote two infallible encyclicals. Further, if Peter could teach infallibly by writing, why could he not also teach infallibly by preaching? And why couldn’t his successors so teach as well?
Gen. to Deut.; Psalms; Paul - Moses and maybe Paul were murderers and David was an adulterer and murderer, but they also wrote infallibly. God uses us sinful human beings because when they respond to His grace and change their lives, we give God greater glory and His presence is made more manifest in our sinful world.
John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.
John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.
John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn’t bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church’s infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God’s Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.
John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will “guide” the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.
1 Cor. 2:13 – Paul explains that what the ministers teach is taught, not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit. The ministers are led to interpret and understand the spiritual truths God gives them over time.
Eph. 4:13,15 – Paul indicates that attaining to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood is a process. We are to grow up in every way into Christ. Doctrine (which means “teaching”) develops as we understand God’s Revelation.
Acts 15:27-28 - the apostles know that their teaching is being guided by the Holy Spirit. He protects the Church from deception.
Gal. 2:11-14 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to diminish Peter’s evident authority over the Church. This is misguided. In this verse, Paul does not oppose Peter’s teaching, but his failure to live by it. Infallibility (teaching without error) does not mean impeccability (living without sinning). Peter was the one who taught infallibly on the Gentile’s salvation in Acts 10,11. With this rebuke, Paul is really saying “Peter, you are our leader, you teach infallibly, and yet your conduct is inconsistent with these facts. You of all people!” The verse really underscores, and not diminishes, the importance of Peter’s leadership in the Church.
Eph. 3:10 - the wisdom of God is known, even to the intellectually superior angels, through the Church (not the Scriptures). This is an incredible verse, for it tells us that God’s infinite wisdom comes to us through the Church. For that to happen, the Church must be protected from teaching error on faith and morals (or she wouldn’t be endowed with the wisdom of God).
Eph. 3:9 - this, in fact, is a mystery hidden for all ages - that God manifests His wisdom through one infallible Church for all people.
Eph. 3:20 - God’s glory is manifested in the Church by the power of the Spirit that works within the Church’s leaders. As a Father, God exalts His children to roles of leadership within the body of Christ.
Eph. 5:23-27, Col. 1:18 - Christ is the head of the Church, His Bride, for which He died to make it Holy and without blemish. There is only one Church, just as Christ only has one Bride.
John 11:51-52 - some non-Catholics argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus’ death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.
1 & 2 Peter - for example, Peter denied Christ, he was rebuked by his greatest bishop (Paul), and yet he wrote two infallible encyclicals. Further, if Peter could teach infallibly by writing, why could he not also teach infallibly by preaching? And why couldn’t his successors so teach as well?
Gen. to Deut.; Psalms; Paul - Moses and maybe Paul were murderers and David was an adulterer and murderer, but they also wrote infallibly. God uses us sinful human beings because when they respond to His grace and change their lives, we give God greater glory and His presence is made more manifest in our sinful world.
John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.
John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.
John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn’t bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church’s infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God’s Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.
John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will “guide” the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.
1 Cor. 2:13 – Paul explains that what the ministers teach is taught, not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit. The ministers are led to interpret and understand the spiritual truths God gives them over time.
Eph. 4:13,15 – Paul indicates that attaining to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood is a process. We are to grow up in every way into Christ. Doctrine (which means “teaching”) develops as we understand God’s Revelation.
Acts 15:27-28 - the apostles know that their teaching is being guided by the Holy Spirit. He protects the Church from deception.
Gal. 2:11-14 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to diminish Peter’s evident authority over the Church. This is misguided. In this verse, Paul does not oppose Peter’s teaching, but his failure to live by it. Infallibility (teaching without error) does not mean impeccability (living without sinning). Peter was the one who taught infallibly on the Gentile’s salvation in Acts 10,11. With this rebuke, Paul is really saying “Peter, you are our leader, you teach infallibly, and yet your conduct is inconsistent with these facts. You of all people!” The verse really underscores, and not diminishes, the importance of Peter’s leadership in the Church.
Eph. 3:10 - the wisdom of God is known, even to the intellectually superior angels, through the Church (not the Scriptures). This is an incredible verse, for it tells us that God’s infinite wisdom comes to us through the Church. For that to happen, the Church must be protected from teaching error on faith and morals (or she wouldn’t be endowed with the wisdom of God).
Eph. 3:9 - this, in fact, is a mystery hidden for all ages - that God manifests His wisdom through one infallible Church for all people.
Eph. 3:20 - God’s glory is manifested in the Church by the power of the Spirit that works within the Church’s leaders. As a Father, God exalts His children to roles of leadership within the body of Christ.
Eph. 5:23-27, Col. 1:18 - Christ is the head of the Church, His Bride, for which He died to make it Holy and without blemish. There is only one Church, just as Christ only has one Bride.
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Eden
Guest
Eph. 5:32- Paul calls the Church a “mystery.” This means that the significance of the Church as the kingdom of God in our midst cannot be understood by reason alone. Understanding the Church also requires faith. “Church” does not mean a building of believers. That is not a mystery. Non-Catholics often view church as mere community, but not the supernatural mystery of Christ physically present among us.
1 Thess. 5:21 - Paul commands us to test everything. But we must have something against which to test. This requires one infallible guide that is available to us, and this guide is the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have never changed.
1 Tim. 3:15 - Paul says the apostolic Church (not Scripture) is the pillar and foundation of the truth. But for the Church to be the pinnacle and foundation of truth, she must be protected from teaching error, or infallible. She also must be the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have not changed for 2,000 years. God loves us so much that He gave us a Church that infallibly teaches the truth so that we have the fullness of the means of salvation in His only begotten Son.
1 John 4:6 – John writes that whoever knows God “listens to us” (the bishops and successors to the apostles). Then John writes “This is the way we discern truth and error. John does not say “reading the Bible is the way we discern truth and error.” But if listening to mere human beings helps us discern truth and error, God would have had to endow his chosen leaders with the special gift of infallibility, so that they would be prevented from teaching error.
Matt. to Rev. - we must also note that not all Christian doctrines are explicit in Scripture (for example, the dogma of the Blessed Trinity). However, infallibility is strongly inferred from the foregoing passages. Non-Catholic Christians should ask themselves why they accept the Church’s teaching on the three persons of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ in one divine person, and the New Testament canon of Scripture (all defined by the Catholic Church), but not other teachings regarding the Eucharist, Mary, the saints, and purgatory?
1 Thess. 5:21 - Paul commands us to test everything. But we must have something against which to test. This requires one infallible guide that is available to us, and this guide is the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have never changed.
1 Tim. 3:15 - Paul says the apostolic Church (not Scripture) is the pillar and foundation of the truth. But for the Church to be the pinnacle and foundation of truth, she must be protected from teaching error, or infallible. She also must be the Catholic Church, whose teachings on faith and morals have not changed for 2,000 years. God loves us so much that He gave us a Church that infallibly teaches the truth so that we have the fullness of the means of salvation in His only begotten Son.
1 John 4:6 – John writes that whoever knows God “listens to us” (the bishops and successors to the apostles). Then John writes “This is the way we discern truth and error. John does not say “reading the Bible is the way we discern truth and error.” But if listening to mere human beings helps us discern truth and error, God would have had to endow his chosen leaders with the special gift of infallibility, so that they would be prevented from teaching error.
Matt. to Rev. - we must also note that not all Christian doctrines are explicit in Scripture (for example, the dogma of the Blessed Trinity). However, infallibility is strongly inferred from the foregoing passages. Non-Catholic Christians should ask themselves why they accept the Church’s teaching on the three persons of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ in one divine person, and the New Testament canon of Scripture (all defined by the Catholic Church), but not other teachings regarding the Eucharist, Mary, the saints, and purgatory?
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ruzz
Guest
Good point.
I have to believe that God protected His word. I see no evidence that He didn’t. However, I DO often wonder what may have been omitted or destroyed because it was “herecy” and taught symbolic body of Christ which conflicted with Rome at the time. I’m thinking God protected what was important.
BTW, did you find out who was the single authority, the man who interpretted scripture for the Jews? The equivelent of “the pope”
What was his name?
-Pax vobiscum
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Eden
Guest
Ruzz, my post #302 was to answer your question about the Old Testament and popes. In the Old Testament you see the perpetual priesthood and the unbroken succession. Those who were annointed to the priesthood would also interpret scripture, I assume.
But I also pointed out that Christ annointed a new priesthood through the apostles and their successors and He chose Peter as the rock. This is God’s model of the New Covenant.
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ruzz
Guest
Yes. You believe that. I respect your beliefs. But I don’t believe it true.
Is Eating Jesus a requirement for salvation?
Because I am not bound by tradition, I can pray for the Holy Spirit to bring clarity to scripture. It worked. Scripture does not seem to be coded. With zero central authority, a billion of us have pretty much come to the same conclusion on so much of scripture. So I don’t think I’m wrong. It seems pretty obvious to me.
Your leaders say I’m wrong and I should listen to them because they are infailable. I can’t abandon what God speaks to my heart about His word to follow something contradictory to what my heart tells me. For the same reason I don’t follow Islam simply because THEYclaim to be the true authority.
Without derailing this thread totally into an “Authority of The Church” thread (which is completely another thread and not of interest to me here) It’s a huge topic best served in it’s own thread. I’ll just say, I have serious serious issues with an organization that claims its leader to be infailable and maintains doctrines that to me are so clearly flawed.
I do not wish to insult your beliefs or debate them. I wish to address the title of this thread. We feel we ARE obeying Christ. Because a Roman bishop procaimed something 1900 years go is not enough for me. The flesh benefits nothing.
-Pax vobiscum
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
There was no single man. The papacy was instituted by Christ. However, there has always been an authoritative magisterial body. To be honest with you, I don’t know my O.T. that well, but I would have to say that it was Moses and the priests of Israel that carried this out, including the Pharisees and whatnot.
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ruzz
Guest
Yes you attemped to address my question and came the closest to doing so. My knowledge of Judiasm is limitted, but I don’t know of a SINGLE head of Judiasm as we see in the pope. My Jewish friend explains to me that interpretation and moral ethics were and are handled by committee.
He could be wrong, so I was hoping someone could name the man who is the sole authority over the Jews before Jesus came and perpuated the concept by appointed Peter.
I see no evidence that Jesus or the Apostles intended there to be a single person of sole authority. Acts shows the replacement of an apostle to maintain the 12 which would be in-line with the structure of the time. Not until the bishop of Rome asserts power do we see this change. This is not the structure of The Church today. It now has a single leader.
I’ll end my tangent here and perhaps discuss this further in another thread.
Thank you
-Pax vobiscum
J
JSmitty2005
Guest
R
ruzz
Guest
That’s my point. The papacy is inconsistent with God’s structure up until that point.
Ok, so stuff changed. Let’s run with that.
Jesus clearly appointed 12 (Twelve) apostles. In acts, the original 11 replaced Judas with another to maintain the original structure of 12. I don’t see this structure change until Rome asserts authority and the regional churches assume they have the authority to do so and follow. This is NOT the structure Jesus laid out. Where are the other 11 sub-popes (apostles)?
-Pax vobiscum
E
Eden
Guest
Was there a reason you capitalized the “E” in eating? Just wondering what the significance of that was.
Catholics pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit when reading scripture as well. But, we test it against the infallible teachings of the Church. Remember in the Bible how it says we must test?
What do you test what you believe the Holy Spirit tells you against to determine that it did not come from “another” spirit?
But you are the one who said there is enough ambiguity in scriptures for someone who promotes the idea that aliens are coming to find justification in scriptures. That’s what you said. Now you are debating your own admission.
A billion of you “pretty much” come to the same conclusion on so much of scripture?
How do you explain the “Disunity on the Essentials”?
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312bt.asp
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