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PRmerger
Guest
That’s a non-sequitur, Prosmith.
The point is: you believe that a man is infallible. Multiple men, actually.
These men were infallible: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, David, Moses, Peter, Paul…
Right?
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The point is: you believe that a man is infallible. Multiple men, actually.
These men were infallible: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, David, Moses, Peter, Paul…
Right?
P
PRmerger
Guest
Sure. God is the principal author.
But the Bible didn’t just float down from heaven.
He used men.
And unless you believe that these men erred, then you believe that men can be infallible.
And this is a perfect expository on what the Catholic Church declares when she declares men, in their office, to be infallible.
I think that this discussion has given you new insight as to what it means when the Church declares that certain men, in their office, have the charism of infallibility.
You understand it exactly the way the Church does.
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stewstew03
Guest
Right. And by what authority?
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed.
And if you don’t believe that the Church has been given the charism of infallibility, where do you think she erred in the 27 canon New Testament, Prosmith?
N
Nicea325
Guest
Nope! God used MEN as instruments to write,unless you have something to present where God’s own hands wrote?
J
joe370
Guest
So God guided fallible men to write infallibly? Did God also guide those fallible men to infallibly interpret what they wrote?
Did someone suggest otherwise?
J
joe370
Guest
God.
J
joe370
Guest
Porknpie said: Share your perspective. Which church is referred to in Matthew 18:17 and what authority is determining what constitutes a “sin”?
Code:
15 “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
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SteveVH
Guest
Oh brother. You say “I think the Catholic Church…”. Why do you think this? Where in the world are you getting your information? Lorraine Bottner, perhaps?
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Porknpie
Guest
Another way of saying this is the Matthew 17 uses the singular word “Church”. Local congregation is by definition plural. This make no sense. The author would have said “go tell a church”, “tell one of the churches”. “If he refuses to listen even to one of the churches, treat him…” . No. God is Truth and Truth can not hold different answers depending on the local congregational beliefs (think abortion, contraception etc).
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joe370
Guest
I have concluded, after a considerable amount of research, that most non-catholics believe that Jesus left Christendom with the infallible Bible with no way to infallibly interpret it.
That made no sense to me as a non-catholic and I continue to remain baffled by that idea as a catholic.
J
joe370
Guest
Tell us how you really feel. LOL…
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Joe…that is it…I have been on CAF for a little while…the Protestants believe their faith is based on the Bible with no one to interpret it.
We believe what Christ said in Bible, that Christ appointed Peter to head the Church in union with the Apostles, the original witnesses to Christ, and that the Holy Spirit working through those chosen by Him and consecrated to Him in spirit and truth – as Christ said in Scriptures – would be the means the faith would continue on.
You can see the Holy Spirit at work today in the universal Church, with countless races, languages, and cultures…all praising God in different languages and local ecclesial customs, but professing the same Creed and practice of faith.
We know our Shepherd and He knows us.
We believe what Christ said in Bible, that Christ appointed Peter to head the Church in union with the Apostles, the original witnesses to Christ, and that the Holy Spirit working through those chosen by Him and consecrated to Him in spirit and truth – as Christ said in Scriptures – would be the means the faith would continue on.
You can see the Holy Spirit at work today in the universal Church, with countless races, languages, and cultures…all praising God in different languages and local ecclesial customs, but professing the same Creed and practice of faith.
We know our Shepherd and He knows us.
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ConsciousCoward
Guest
My primary issue with Catholicism is in the idea of unending uncorruptability. Which is to say, the idea that the Catholic Church is and has always been guided entirely by the Holy Spirit, thus giving it continued absolute authority over the world of Christianity. The problem here is that in taking this stance, you have to be willing to apply this idea to the more questionable periods of Catholic history as well as the good; not only was the establishment of Biblical canon guided by the Holy Spirit, but also the Crusades, unfair trials of heretics, political motivations of the Papacy, and all the other morally questionable actions of the Medieval Church.
Because I cannot accept that these were sanctioned by a good and loving God, I have to reject the idea of unending uncorruptability, which is one of the core pillars of Catholic authority, leading me to, by extension, reject that authority.
Granted, I also reject the idea that any institution led by man is perfect, but still.
Because I cannot accept that these were sanctioned by a good and loving God, I have to reject the idea of unending uncorruptability, which is one of the core pillars of Catholic authority, leading me to, by extension, reject that authority.
Granted, I also reject the idea that any institution led by man is perfect, but still.
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PRmerger
Guest
We only claim for us what Jesus claimed: that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church.
This is not a correct expository on what the Catholic Church claims.
The correct declaration is that she is guided by the Holy Spirit in the areas of faith and morals, so that when she speaks definitively, she will not proclaim any error.
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PRmerger
Guest
I think you are operating under the misapprehension that the CC declares herslef to be a perfect institution?
If so, you are misinformed.
This is what the Church claims for herself:
“The Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real though** imperfect**.” CCC 825
X
XianThinker
Guest
Are you saying that if you see a Christian sinning and he doesn’t listen to you then you should bring him in front of the Pope at the Vatican? If I say I’m going to church on Sunday, it’s understood that I’m referring to the local congregation. At the time it was written, there was probably only one church in the area so they probably brought the matter before the pastor or the elders in the church that both of them attended.
I have some Bible commentaries. Here’s what they say:
“If this fail, bring him before the Church or congregation to which both belong. (Jamieson, Faussett & Brown)”
“Tell it unto the Church— Lay the whole matter before the congregation of Christian believers, in that place of which he is a member, or before the minister and elders, as the representatives of the Church or assembly. (Adam Clarke’s Commentaries)”
"Lay the whole matter open before those who watch over yours and his soul. (John Wesley - Notes of the Bible)
“If a professed Christian is wronged by, he ought not to complain of it to others, as is often done merely upon report, but to go to the offender privately, state the matter kindly, and show him his conduct. This would generally have all the desired effect with a true Christian, and the parties would be reconciled. The principles of these rules may be practiced every where, and under all circumstances, though they are too much neglected by all. But how few try the method which Christ has expressly enjoined to all his disciples! In all our proceedings we should seek direction in prayer; we cannot too highly prize the promises of God. Wherever and whenever we meet in the name of Christ, we should consider him as present in the midst of us. (Matthew Henry Concise Commentary)”
X
XianThinker
Guest
That’s not true. Protestants believe the Holy Spirit guides believers into ALL truth. The Holy Spirit is God. Protestants trust God because they believe God knows more than the Pope.
“I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. (John 14:16-17)”
“But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. (John 16:13, NIV)”
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pablope
Guest
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PRmerger
Guest
How can the Holy Spirit guide tens of thousands of different Christian denominations into thousands of contrary teachings?
Now, thanks to this Protestant paradigm we have the chaos and confusion of each of these tens of thousands of Christian denominations claiming that their interpretation of Scripture is the correct one.
That is not the fruit of the Holy Spirit, but rather the fruit of the Author of Chaos and Confusion.
This is bordering on contemptuous, XT. Be careful.
No Catholic here has ever proclaimed that the Pope knows more than God.
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