Protestants, why?

[stewstew03]

What I’m wondering is maybe some churches changes their beliefs and are now the Roman Catholic Church but other churches remained faithful and continued teaching the apostolic faith. I haven’t studied the Orthodox churches yet, but the little bit I read seems to indicate their churches started with the apostles. That would mean some churches left the true faith to follow Rome while the other Catholic Churches remained faithful and are now called Orthodox. There are also Protestant churches that claim Jesus established their denomination but their numbers dwindled from Constantine until the Reformation and are now growing again.

So… all this time you were just pretending to know which church Jesus founded?

 

[pablope]

I

but so far I haven’t read anything about the Immaculate Conception or the Bodily Assumption. I don’t think the Bodily Assumption became an official catholic teaching until 1950. I’d bet the majority of Catholics who lived and died before 1950 didn’t believe it. None of the church fathers I’ve read so far teach that belief in the Bodily Assumption is required for salvation.

Have you read the actual document proclaiming the Assumption? It draws on Tradition.

John the Theologian on the Dormition: newadvent.org/fathers/0832.htm

orthodoxphotos.com/readings/LG/dormition.shtml

 

[Porknpie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRmerger
Could you list the “significant” differences between the doctrines of the Orthodox and the CC, Publisher?

:coffeeread:kpeople:

 

[Nicea325]

I was taught and believed that God is one, that baptism must be done by full immersion and in the name of Jesus only, and that anyone who believed in the Trinity, was baptized by sprinkling or in the name of the Trinity was not a Christian and is going to Hell. I found out later that there were many different beliefs and that hardly anyone agrees with what I was taught. That is why I am studying the beliefs of different churches now and reading the church fathers.

I’ll quote the church father Irenaeus to state what I’m starting to believe at the moment:

“The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,” and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess” to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send “spiritual wickednesses,” and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.

As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it… For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shineth everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth ((Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Ch. 10, AD 180)”

So there is one Christian faith taught by the apostles and agreement about a belief in one God, the Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and salvation. The heresies Irenaeus condemned were those that disagreed with the rule of faith. I think Christians disagreed with each other on many other issues but were still considered Christian as long as they agreed on the basic, essential teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

And do believe Jesus and the twelve did not consider unity as ONE important? No mention of agreeing on the basic essentials and still belonging to different churches. The only Church I read in the NT is ONE…not thousands.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by XianThinker

but so far I haven’t read anything about the Immaculate Conception or the Bodily Assumption.

From where? The Bible? First show me where the Bible teaches:

It must be taught and said explicitly from the Bible in order to be true. Show me the chapter and verse where the Bible mentions a canonized Bible?

I don’t think the Bodily Assumption became an official catholic teaching until 1950.

And? The Trinity in 325 and Incarnation as well. Do you also reject those doctrines?

I’d bet the majority of Catholics who lived and died before 1950 didn’t believe it.

Pure speculation and conjecture. You have no such evidence. So I am assuming before 325 AD the majority of Christians didn’t believe in the Trinity-right?

None of the church fathers I’ve read so far teach that belief in the Bodily Assumption is required for salvation.

And none of the 12 Apostles teach the Bible-Alone is required for salvation.

 

[pablope]

I think one needs to maintain their faith or confidence until their death. I think obedience is part of faith.

. the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 1, Ch. 10, AD 180)”

Good, you are reading the ECFs. Have you come across this from Ireneus:

Against Heresies…It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to “the perfect” apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.

And from Clement 1:

1Clem 44:2 For this cause therefore, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed to their ministration.

57:2 Learn to submit yourselves, laying aside the vain and haughty self-will of your tongues; for it is better that you should be small and approved in the flock of Christ, rather than that, seeming to be superior to others, ye should be cast out of his hope

59:1 But if some should be disobedient to the things spoken by him through us, let them know that they will entangle themselves in no small transgression and danger,

I was taught that Constantine and others changed the church structure and some beliefs such as giving the Pope authority over other churches, teaching new doctrines, and kicking those who disagreed out of the church.

I hope you go and avoid Jack Chick and his material. He has been called to task, including some protestants who are embarrassed by his actions.

archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403fea2.asp

shop.catholic.com/product.php?productid=446

net-abbey.org/jack_chickwhois.htm

Chick was thrown out of the Christian booksellers association in the early 1980’s and also in the late 1980’s or early 1990’s, was one of the only individuals in history to be expelled from the Southern Baptist Convention. Not much is known about his past. He apparently was born in the 1920’s and attended High School in the 1940’s

Many Protestants I know agree that Christ established the Catholic Church but not later beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church. I think the point of the Reformation was to get rid of alleged later additions to the faith and return to the faith taught by Jesus.

Those protestants obviously do not know the history of the Reformation. If they did, they would not make such claims.

calledtocommunion.com/2012/02/an-opc-pastor-enters-the-catholic-church/

As I began to dig down to the most foundational differences dividing Protestants and Catholic, the book The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism by Louis Bouyer was recommended to me…Put differently – Protestantism needs Catholicism in order to become all it aspires to be, which, of course, if true means the Protestant Reformation was completely unnecessary. Worse, it means that the Reformation was impossible from the outset because the reformers had unwittingly cut themselves off from the only source that could make their vision fruitful.

 

[pablope]

Which one did he found…the “Orthodox”, or the “Catholic”…the differences are significant IMO…at least as significant between Protestant groups…but Catholics seem embrace a “two-lung” belief.

The differences could summed up in one issue…The Papacy…and maybe one more…pride.

 

[houseofsaul]

I am not a Catholic because there are aspects of church teaching I don’t believe are Scripturally based, such as transubstantiation, Mary’s perpetual virginity and sinless life, the elevation of saints, the requirement of confession and penance, and infant baptism. While I don’t believe it is sinful to believe these things, I don’t believe they are required for salvation. The CC requires its members to believe all church teachings to be in a state of grace and therefor eligible for entrance into heaven. Also. I have found Catholic masses to be rote performances with an emphasis on conducting all the steps correctly and Protestant services to be more personal with emphasis on Scripture and the message delivered.

I just have to ask from a converted Catholic (RCIA CLASSES SOON TO BEGIN) point of view:

Are your beliefs against what the CC teaches, beliefs you have searched out or ones that have been taught you by your church or elders of your church?

 

[houseofsaul]

There already is an active post on this subject under apologetics / sacred scripture.

Sorry I was commenting on a partial post from this thread somewhere around 6-9…I try to read from the beginning. Should I not comment my feelings or beliefs that far back in a thread?

 

[Nicea325]

I just have to ask from a converted Catholic (RCIA CLASSES SOON TO BEGIN) point of view:

Are your beliefs against what the CC teaches, beliefs you have searched out or ones that have been taught you by your church or elders of your church?

More than likely what they have been told and taught. Always go to the source. If I want to learn about the Islamic faith I will talk to their experts,not the haters.

 

[CopticChristian]

I agree with the first sermon in the early church taught by Peter in Acts 2. A person must believe in Jesus, repent of his sins, and get baptized. I think a person needs to remain faithful until the end to get to Heaven.

“Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off —for all whom the Lord our God will call.” (Acts 2:38-39)”

“he who stands firm to the end will be saved (Matt 24:13)”

“We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. (Heb 3:14)”

Xian,

You outlined it pretty well. So here I am going to talk to someone because I want them to go to heaven. How is it you came to believe and how is I am going to get someone to believe.

Do they have to hear about it and does the hearing come by way of someone telling them and is this in the Bible to do that?

 

[PRmerger]

And? The Trinity in 325 and Incarnation as well. Do you also reject those doctrines?

I do believe the XianThinker does reject the Trinity. I think I read that in a post here somewhere.

Trinitarian Non-Catholic Christians! The above is another reason why “Me, the Bible and the Holy Spirit” simply cannot work. It leads to folks believing that God is not Trinitarian.

 

[Prosmith]

I do believe the XianThinker does reject the Trinity. I think I read that in a post here somewhere.

Trinitarian Non-Catholic Christians! The above is another reason why “Me, the Bible and the Holy Spirit” simply cannot work. It leads to folks believing that God is not Trinitarian.

Just to clear up any misunderstanding, the teaching of the Trinity absolutely comes from Scripture. As you, I am not a fundamentalist.

 

[CopticChristian]

I do believe the XianThinker does reject the Trinity. I think I read that in a post here somewhere.

Trinitarian Non-Catholic Christians! The above is another reason why “Me, the Bible and the Holy Spirit” simply cannot work. It leads to folks believing that God is not Trinitarian.

Post 371 this thread

I was taught and believed that God is one, that baptism must be done by full immersion and in the name of Jesus only, and that anyone who believed in the Trinity, was baptized by sprinkling or in the name of the Trinity was not a Christian and is going to Hell. I found out later that there were many different beliefs and that hardly anyone agrees with what I was taught. That is why I am studying the beliefs of different churches now and reading the church fathers.

 

[XianThinker]

Fair enough.

And does not logic dictate the existence of purgatory?

If one dies with even a smudge o’ dirt on his soul, do you think that it’s logical to believe that there’s a “mud room” before the throne of heaven for which the atoning blood of Christ cleans you up?

Sounds logical to me.

Now, are you going to deny Catholics the right to this logical conclusion?

I don’t think anyone is perfectly pure. When John wrote in Revelation “nothing impure shall enter it [Heaven]” I don’t think he was speaking that literally. I think he meant that adulterers, thieves, greedy, and other immoral people who haven’t repented won’t make it into heaven.

 

[XianThinker]

So you are leaning toward the eastern orthodox churches? Well, like the catholic church, they can certainly trace their lineage back to the apostolic age. As far as certain protestant churches validly claiming that Jesus established their denomination, I would have to strongly disagree with them, unless they can provide proof. I certainly could not as a former non-catholic.

My point is that the apostles established many churches (in Rome, Ephesus, Corinth, Phillipi, etc.) If some of them are now part of the Roman Catholic Church and some are part of the Orthodox church, then some of the churches had to deviate from the apostolic teaching. Therefore, the fact that Catholic Churches can trace themselves back to the apostles doesn’t mean their teaching is correct.

There are some Baptists and other churches that would say all the churches were Baptist (or whatever their particular denomination is) and that the majority became Catholic after the Roman Empire took over and made membership in the Catholic Church mandatory and persecuted everyone else but, I agree with you, that it is less likely this happened.

 

[Nicea325]

I don’t think anyone is perfectly pure. When John wrote in Revelation “nothing impure shall enter it [Heaven]” I don’t think he was speaking that literally. I think he meant that adulterers, thieves, greedy, and other immoral people who haven’t repented won’t make it into heaven.

Hhmmmm? So what do you think Jesus (Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59) – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

:ehh:

 

[XianThinker]

Hi, Xian…just a question for you to consider and ponder, as from you response above, it looks like you are deciding what is needed for salvation and what is not. So let me ask:

Who determines what is necessary for salvation? The Church or a Church or the individual?

Since God saves, he determines what is necessary. How does one know God’s criteria? If your Catholic, you rely on the Church. If you’re a Baptist or non-denominational Protestant you probably believe the Bible teaching on salvation is clear and easy to understand.

 

[XianThinker]

And do believe Jesus and the twelve did not consider unity as ONE important? No mention of agreeing on the basic essentials and still belonging to different churches. The only Church I read in the NT is ONE…not thousands.

Unity doesn’t mean everyone has the exact same beliefs on everything.

It’s my understanding that all Catholics agree with whatever the Catholic Church feels is necessary (Trinity, salvation, sacraments, etc.) but that Catholics are free to disagree and hold varying opinions on other topics (fate of unbaptized babies, beliefs about the end times, etc.)

Many Protestant churches I’ve been to are the same way. Most Protestants believe in faith alone, Bible alone, and the priesthood of all believers but feel it’s okay to disagree on other less important issues.

 

[XianThinker]

So I am assuming before 325 AD the majority of Christians didn’t believe in the Trinity-right

“The simple, indeed, (I will not call them unwise and unlearned, ) who always constitute the majority of believers, are startled at the dispensation (of the Three in One), on the ground that their very rule of faith withdraws them from the world’s plurality of gods to the one only true God (Tertullian Against Praxeas, Ch. 3)”