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Eric_Hilbert
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Meter’s running low guys.
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Porknpie
Guest
This is not an argument that I have heard of before but I’m only a “Junior Member”. This is a Monty Python view: "And now, time for something completely different"
You are saying: “I can’t figure out which church, EO, RC or OO, is the church founded by Jesus so I’ll belief in something “completely different” I’ll believe in a man made tradition 1500 to 2000 years after Christ that believes that everyone can self interpret the bible and I’ll throw out the teachings of the church since apostolic times. Even those teachings where the EO, RC and OO churches are united. I’ll substitute the believe in 7 sacraments for a believe in two sacraments, maybe even less … and move away from the truth.”
Your logic leaves me baffled or I am not understanding you. Who are you then trusting as your authority and where did they receive that authority? And where is their authority given in the bible or tradition?
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XianThinker
Guest
No, you should ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to you which books are inspired since he guides everyone into all truth. Then, you will know who is right.LOL!
The Holy Spirit went through each of the 27 books of the NT and the (66?) books of the OT specifically and spoke to Mr. White, indicating that they were inspired? Or did the HS also go through the other 400 or so other early Christian texts and give some sort of “nay” vote to Mr. White so he knew for sure that the Epistle of Barnabas was not inspired??
Really, how did that work?
stewstew03;9696501:
If the HS reveals to you that the seven books in questions aren’t inspired, you can make statements like these ones I found online:
Those who hold to the Apocryphal books as being inspired are not led by the Holy Spirit, for He will guide into all truth (Jn. 16:13).
“For a Catholic Council like Trent or Vatican I to declare inspiration for these books shows that God is not controlling these councils.”
I believe in Lordship salvation (which states that one must accept Jesus as both Lord and Savior). Most Protestants I know believe in free grace salvation (which states that one only needs to accept Jesus as their Savior). I often hear stuff similar to these statements I found online:
“According to MacArthur, one’s salvation is DEPENDENT upon the life he or she lives. This is the damnable heresy of Lordship Salvation! Mr. MacArthur is of the Devil” and a “false prophet.”
Augustine said, “there are some who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness.”(8) This statement infers works for salvation which is refuted by Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; Rom. 4:4-6 and 2 Tim. 1:9. Consequently, one can therefore conclude that Augustine was NOT a Christian but instead a minister and servant of Satan, 2 Cor. 11:13-15!"
Being told I wasn’t a Christian because I didn’t have the Holy Spirit (since if I had, I would have agreed with the true believers who had the HS) is a big part of why I stopped going to church.
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Publisher
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His response makes sense to me. IF what religious organization impacts my salvation and if it does matter which religious organization I belong to as you claim, and all of the “apostolic” organizations claim to be the “one true church”, YET none of you are in communion with one another…and in fact deep, sometimes violent, disagreements have been manifested in history over whom is the “true church”, then which one are we to adhere to? If as you claim it does matter…what if the wrong group is joined?
This is not an argument that I have heard of before but I’m only a “Junior Member”. This is a Monty Python view: "And now, time for something completely different"
You are saying: “I can’t figure out which church, EO, RC or OO, is the church founded by Jesus so I’ll belief in something “completely different” I’ll believe in a man made tradition 1500 to 2000 years after Christ that believes that everyone can self interpret the bible and I’ll throw out the teachings of the church since apostolic times. Even those teachings where the EO, RC and OO churches are united. I’ll substitute the believe in 7 sacraments for a believe in two sacraments, maybe even less … and move away from the truth.”
Your logic leaves me baffled or I am not understanding you. Who are you then trusting as your authority and where did they receive that authority? And where is their authority given in the bible or tradition?
It is Christ that saves us and joins us to His Church by the work of the Holy Spirit…not who’s name is on the sign outside the meeting house you meet in…or which priest confects the sacraments…but Christ alone.
For me, I’d much rather put my trust in He that died for me…in He that loves me and knows me best than in a religious organization that makes claims to alone be right and all other are incorrect.
“I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.” He is the Keeper of my soul and the Perfector of my faith…not the organization I belong to. For there is astounding grace offered from Him to my thirsty heart, my hope is in the Lord…not in a church organization.
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jlhargus
Guest
Who is the ONLY apostle Christ gave the keys. Which apostle did Christ NAME rock and said he would build His Church on that rock? Who is the ONLY apostle Christ prayed his faith would fail not? Who is the ONLY apostle did Christ told to feed His lambs and sheep?
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Publisher
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Any yet if the answer was as simple as you seem to think, there wouldn’t be the schisms apostolic communities have with one another.
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CopticChristian
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Taestron,
That is certainly a valid opinion and a reason to embrace a theology that commenced 500 years ago.
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awantz
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Divide by making non-Catholics feel unwelcome in his church, especially when they are attending RCIA. How can there be unity with church leaders like this?
Neither was I including the CC. I was talking about Lutheranism. I would, however, disagree that Catholics do not have Christ at the center, if that is what you meant.
Jon
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jlhargus
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Yet if you answered the questions is would only fit ONE faith.Any yet if the answer was as simple as you seem to think, there wouldn’t be the schisms apostolic communities have with one another.
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Publisher
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It would fit only one faith if understood as you do…but we have the Orthodox and Coptic and Oriental “apostolic” churches that disagree with your understanding.
Not to mention Anglican, Lutheran and Old Catholics.
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jlhargus
Guest
[Acts2:37 Now WHEN THEY HEARD this, THEY WERE PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, AND SAID unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, WHAT SHALL WE DO? 38 Then PETER SAID unto them, **REPENT, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. THE PROMISE IS UNTO YOU, AND TO YOUR CHILDREN, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.]
There is a great difference between baptism and dedication they don’t compare. If not then why not baptize instead of dedicate? The baptized receive eternal life by regenerating a spiritually dead soul thru the indwelling Holy Spirit, thereby repairing original sin. Brought into a family covenant relationship with God being born again a child of God, receiving the PROMISE. That which is born of flesh is BORN AGAIN of water and of the Spirit. No longer in old Adam but in new Adam, Christ, they are a new creation.
The dedicated may receive a blessing but remains in old Adam being born of flesh only, without eteranl life indwelling.
Indeed it is not, JL. This is why I reacted, pehaps rather harshly I regret, to the “presentation” argument. Of course, that’s not to say that being Christ-centered is irrelevent, hence the Lutheran approach being a theology of the cross.
Jon
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jlhargus
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JL: Thanks Jon. I don’t think you have ever been harsh in your posts. I think everyone would agree it is nescessary to be Christ-centered. Yet one can’t be Christ-centered and dismiss the gospel truth.
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jlhargus
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JL: Those are some basic questions for those sincerly searching for the Church Christ is building. How they answer is up to them.It would fit only one faith if understood as you do…but we have the Orthodox and Coptic and Oriental “apostolic” churches that disagree with your understanding.
I really like the way you phrased this - “is building”. There is only one Church, and ISTM “is building” speaks to the goals of CC under Vatican II and other communions who are participating in ecumenical dialogue.
Jon
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jlhargus
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JL: Thanks John, I wish I could take credit for “is building” but that has to go to Matthew. I am still trying to make out what ISTM means. I’m really dumb when it comes to text short hand.
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