Protestants, why?

[joe370]

ConsciousCoward;9652298]My primary issue with Catholicism is in the idea of unending uncorruptability. Which is to say, the idea that the Catholic Church is and has always been guided entirely by the Holy Spirit, thus giving it continued absolute authority over the world of Christianity.

Not over the world of Christianity; just the Catholic Church.

The problem here is that in taking this stance, you have to be willing to apply this idea to the more questionable periods of Catholic history as well as the good; not only was the establishment of Biblical canon guided by the Holy Spirit, but also the Crusades, unfair trials of heretics, political motivations of the Papacy, and all the other morally questionable actions of the Medieval Church.

Scripture clearly tells us that scandals within Jesus’ Church are unavoidable. Wolve’s in sheep’s clothing are inevitable. Jesus said, about the wheat and the weeds, "Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

Jesus promised to guide His church into all truth until the end of time, as per sacred scripture and this is only possible if He continues to ineffably guide His church.

Because I cannot accept that these were sanctioned by a good and loving God, I have to reject the idea of unending uncorruptability, which is one of the core pillars of Catholic authority, leading me to, by extension, reject that authority.

Where does the catholic church say anything about “unending uncorruptability”?

Granted, I also reject the idea that any institution led by man is perfect, but still.

The catholic church would agree with you, as do I.

 

[XianThinker]

Okay, thread come to a full stop…
WHAT?!?!

Logically, if one church is right, then other churches that disagree must be wrong. For example, the Catholic Church and the Watchtower Society both claim to be the true church but disagree with each other. They can’t both be right.

Lots of denominations claim their church is the true church and teach that everyone else is wrong. What’s wrong with that? The Catholic Church says the same thing about their church.

 

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by XianThinker
I think many of the Protestant denominations (the ones that don’t agree with me) are wrong and aren’t being led by the Holy Spirit.

Okay, thread come to a full stop…
WHAT?!?!

Just,
I disagree with Xian. I believe that all of us are led by the Spirit. Its just that some don’t understand the guidance as well as, um, Lutherans.

Jon

 

[XianThinker]

Sure. God is the principal author.

But the Bible didn’t just float down from heaven.

He used men.

And unless you believe that these men erred, then you believe that men can be infallible.



And this is a perfect expository on what the Catholic Church declares when she declares men, in their office, to be infallible.

I think that this discussion has given you new insight as to what it means when the Church declares that certain men, in their office, have the charism of infallibility.

You understand it exactly the way the Church does.

Okay. I understand. I’m going to make another post about what I was taught about infallibility and what I think many Protestants believe the Catholic Church teaches to explain why I said Popes aren’t perfect and why some people strongly disagree with infallibility.

 

[joe370]

Thinker;9654566]Logically, if one church is right, then other churches that disagree must be wrong. For example, the Catholic Church and the Watchtower Society both claim to be the true church but disagree with each other. They can’t both be right

.

Just figure out who founded each church, and if it’s not Jesus then it’s not the church of Matthe 16. Jesus sais, I will build my church…

Lots of denominations claim their church is the true church and teach that everyone else is wrong. What’s wrong with that? The Catholic Church says the same thing about their church.

I can give you the name of the man that started each and every non-catholic church, and when, and His name won’t be Jesus circa AD 33. Who started the catholic church in your opinion, and when?

 

[joe370]

Just,
I disagree with Xian. I believe that all of us are led by the Spirit. Its just that some don’t understand the guidance as well as, um, Lutherans.

Jon

LOL…

 

[joe370]

Okay. I understand. I’m going to make another post about what I was taught about infallibility and what I think many Protestants believe the Catholic Church teaches to explain why I said Popes aren’t perfect and why some people strongly disagree with infallibility.

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”

― Fulton J. Sheen

I was told quite a few erroneous things as a former non-Catholic.

 

[XianThinker]

I think many Protestants strongly disagree with the infallibility of the Pope because we were taught in our churches that it means Catholics think the Pope is perfect and incapable of sinning. Here’s how one website uses the Bible to refute this belief:

According to Catholic doctrine, the Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine, faith and morals.

“In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a supernatural sense of faith the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s livi ng magisterium, unfailingly adheres to this faith.” Pg. 235, #889

The Catechism restates the same belief this way:

“The Roman Pontiff… enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals… This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.” Pg. 235, #891

Sadly, this doctrine is but another tradition of men that contradicts Scripture. The Bible declares that all people are sinners. No one is perfect or infallible in anything:

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:23

“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” Romans 3:10

Notice, you didn’t read, " no one, except the pope." Jesus is the only infallible person who ever lived:

“For he (God) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin…” 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

[joe370]

XianThinker;9654630]I think many Protestants strongly disagree with the infallibility of the Pope because we were taught in our churches that it means Catholics think the Pope is perfect and incapable of sinning.

It’s too bad so many folks are being lied to regarding the Pope. If you were to ask Pope Benedict XVI if he was perfect and incapable of sinning, what do you think he would say?

 

[PRmerger]

He can’t. God is not the author of confusion.

'zactly.

So how do you explain the fact that there are a multitude of Christian denominations, each claiming that they are guided by the Holy Spirit, yet teaching different doctrines?

 

[joe370]

XianThinker;9654630"In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a supernatural sense of faith the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s livi ng magisterium, unfailingly adheres to this faith." Pg. 235, #889The Catechism restates the same belief this way:“The Roman Pontiff… enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals… This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.” Pg. 235, #891

If the Pope is a fallible, sinner, (which he is) just as the apostles were, then how did Pope Pius IX infallibly define the Immaculate Conception? How did the apostles write infallibly?

Sadly, this doctrine is but another tradition of men that contradicts Scripture. The Bible declares that all people are sinners. No one is perfect or infallible in anything:

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:23

Every Pope is a sinner, just as the apostles were sinners! Why would the pope go to confession if he believed himself to be impeccable?

 

[PRmerger]

There really aren’t “tens of thousands” of denominations. There are probably less than 100 and these have similar beliefs (faith alone, Bible alone, priesthood of all believers) with the differences being over minor issues (types of music, church structure, end time beliefs, tongues, lifestyle choices, etc.)

Less than 100? With all due respect, that’s absurd.

Perhaps you don’t live in a large metropolitan area like I do. But I will tell you that there are 100 different denominations, each teaching different (and often contrary! ) interpretations of Scripture, in my urban area alone.

Each of these churches, one pictured here,

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

teach their own doctrines.

They will vehemently disagree with another church, pictured here,



on what the Bible says.

And each of them will claim that they have been guided by the Holy Spirit to tell them what they believe is actually what God has revealed.

At any rate, even if it were only 10 that would still be proof enough that the unholy trinity of “Me, My Bible and the Holy Spirit” can’t work.

The claim of “tens of thousands” of denominations is based on counting every non-denominational church as a separate denomination consisting of one church.

I would be happy to use the correct number that you provide, as long as you offer references.

 

[PRmerger]

This really goes to solidify my point that you don’t seem to have much knowledge of Protestantism.

How does that list do that for you?

 

[PRmerger]

I think many Protestants strongly disagree with the infallibility of the Pope because we were taught in our churches that it means Catholics think the Pope is perfect and incapable of sinning.

I suppose a parallel could be this: I think many Muslims strongly disagree with the Bible because they were taught in the mosques that it means that Christians worship the Bible. Only God must be worshiped!

To which you, a Christian, would respond: Christians do not worship the Bible. You have been misinformed about Christianity.

So the fact that others are misinformed about your faith is a sad but irrelevant fact, as it applies to this discussion.

 

[PRmerger]

Not at all. Peters Epistles were without errors but that didn’t make him infallible according to the definition of infallibility by the RCC.

Of course it does. It parallels swimmingly with the definition of infallibility by the CC.

(BTW, Prosmith, the Catholic Church is not the Roman Catholic Church. The RCC is only one of 23 different rites, each of which is part of the universal One Holy Catholic Church).

What has been established is that you now realize that you do believe that men have been infallible.

So now what’s to stop you from believing that men continue to be infallible?

Where does the Bible say that this can’t continue?

 

[PRmerger]

And how is that the RCC as it is today? Prove that it is precisely that. Read the Early Church Fathers and see if the Roman Catholic church looks anything more like the Early Church than most of Lutheranism. It doesn’t.

Tell me if this description by an ECF matches more of what your church service looks like, or what the Catholic liturgy looks like:

And this food is called among us Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. source

 

[PRmerger]

Sadly, this doctrine is but another tradition of men that contradicts Scripture. The Bible declares that all people are sinners. No one is perfect or infallible in anything:

Your source equate s"perfect" with “infallible” which shows a dismal lack of understanding of what infallible means.

It absolutely does NOT mean “perfect”.

Notice, you didn’t read, " no one, except the pope." Jesus is the only infallible person who ever lived:

You don’t really believe that, XT. Otherwise you could never quote Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, David or Moses ever again as being from the inspired Word of God.

Yes, you believe that there are men who were infallible. :yup:

 

[GKC]

Tell me if this description by an ECF matches more of what your church service looks like, or what the Catholic liturgy looks like:

Matches mine.

GKC

 

[joe370]

XianThinker;9654630]I think many Protestants strongly disagree with the infallibility of the Pope …

Do protestant Pastors claim to teach fallibly? If so then how can one know that they are speaking the truth regarding things like the Eucharist, for example?

Leaving the catholic church out of the discussion for the moment, does the Holy Spirit guide each respective church Pastor (church leadership) when it comes to doctrinal matters?

Or, is definitive truth, regarding conflicting teachings, simply unknowable in the protestant sphere?

 

[Nicea325]

Xian Thinker:

I

think many Protestants strongly disagree with the infallibility of the Pope because we were taught in our churches that it means Catholics think the Pope is perfect and incapable of sinning. Here’s how one website uses the Bible to refute this belief:

WRONG! What your churches have been teaching is a LIE and perversion from official Catholic teaching. Time for your churches to do their homework and stop spewing lies. Show me ONE CC document stating the pope is PERFECT? Just one…

According to Catholic doctrine, the Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine, faith and morals.

“In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a supernatural sense of faith the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s livi ng magisterium, unfailingly adheres to this faith.” Pg. 235, #889
The Catechism restates the same belief this way:

“The Roman Pontiff… enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals… This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.” Pg. 235, #891
Sadly, this doctrine is but another tradition of men that contradicts Scripture. The Bible declares that all people are sinners. No one is perfect or infallible in anything:

Yes…and? Show me where it reads: the pope is PREFECT and without SIN?

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:23

This includes mentally retared children and infants-right?

“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” Romans 3:10

Which would also include Jesus since He too was 100% human-right? Since you believe “none” means absolutely…NONE!

Notice, you didn’t read, " no one, except the pope." Jesus is the only infallible person who ever lived:

Notice…no where does the CC claim the pope is infallible AT ALL TIMES.

“For he (God) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin…” 2 Corinthians 5:21

So Jesus was a sinner?