Protestants, why?

[pablope]

Originally Posted by joe370
Who within Christendom, has the God-given, spirit-guided authority to say: hey man that is doctrinally wrong? Please be specific…

The Orthodox believes in the IC…I think what they believe is that it was unnecessary to make it a dogmatic proclamation.

 

[joe370]

Do the Orthodox?

They don’t hold with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception for example?

They have Apostolic succession and full and valid sacraments, so I guess they must have some authority too?

Sarah x

Orthodox teaching: “Most Orthodox reject the dogma of the Immaculate Conception as unnecessary and wrong. Because Orthodoxy does not see ancestral sin as an inheritance of guilt or a stain, there is no reason for the miraculous removal of either. Nonetheless, Orthodox tradition does hold that the Theotokos remained free of personal sin…”

They still believe, as does the CC, that Mary, a mere creature, was unique in that she remained free of personal sin, just like her Son, therefore, these teachings are essentially the same.

 

[joe370]

The Orthodox believes in the IC…I think what they believe is that it was unnecessary to make it a dogmatic proclamation.

As hard as it is to believe, they don’t believe in original sin. But, yeah I suppose you right about the eastern churches believing that Mary was immaculately conceived, if in fact they believe that she NEVER sinned. Looks like it is a matter of semantics after all.

 

[pablope]

As hard as it is to believe, they don’t believe in original sin. But, yeah I suppose you right about the eastern churches believing that Mary was immaculately conceived, if in fact they believe that she NEVER sinned. Looks like it is a matter of semantics after all.

Hi, Joe…right on…it is a matter of semantics.

I think the (I need correction on this), the OC celebrates some sort of IC feast, not on Dec 8 as we RCC do, but on Dec 9, …While the Eastern Orthodox Churches have never accepted the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception, they do celebrate December 9 as the Feast of the Conception by St. Anne of the Most Holy Theotokos.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feast_of_the_Immaculate_Conception

 

[pablope]

I want to thank everyone for their help. I’m now convinced the Bible doesn’t teach sola scriptura. I think it is okay to go outside the Bible and follow apostolic tradition so now I’m going to go read the ECFs to see whether Catholic Sacred Tradition is apostolic tradition as the Catholic Church claims or whether it is a tradition of man as Protestants claim.

May I suggest this as a place to start:

mark-shea.com/6.html

 

[atheistgirl]

The Orthodox believes in the IC…I think what they believe is that it was unnecessary to make it a dogmatic proclamation.

I think the understanding is different though, and it hinges on what is meant by original sin. The Orthodox understanding of this, and it’s effects, are different to the Catholic Church.

Unless my understanding is completely outta whack!

Sarah x

 

[joe370]

Hi, Joe…right on…it is a matter of semantics.

I think the (I need correction on this), the OC celebrates some sort of IC feast, not on Dec 8 as we RCC do, but on Dec 9, …While the Eastern Orthodox Churches have never accepted the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception, they do celebrate December 9 as the Feast of the Conception by St. Anne of the Most Holy Theotokos.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feast_of_the_Immaculate_Conception

I did not know that…thumbsup:

 

[joe370]

I think the understanding is different though, and it hinges on what is meant by original sin. The Orthodox understanding of this, and it’s effects, are different to the Catholic Church.

Unless my understanding is completely outta whack!

Sarah x

It’s outta whack. LOL…Just kiddin around…

Let’s just keep it simple. Saying that Mary was conceived with out sin is the same as saying that Mary was conceived immaculately. .

 

[Nicea325]

I believe the answer to this is the main difference between Catholics and Protestants. We are saved in Christ not because of tradition or ceremony or prayer.

Difference? What on earth makes you believe Catholics do not believed we are saved through Christ? Show a Catholic document stating tradition or cermonies saves? That is not a Protestant revelation to the world,but a manifestation given to the world by God and given to Catholic/Orthodox Christians before any Protestant.

We are not saved because we give our lives to Christ or perform glorious works.

Protestant error. Takes more than just faith and belief. Works are also included and scripture is very clear.

We are saved because God provides the grace to save us.

A Catholic teaching long before Protestanism. Our cooperation is also required.

Otherwise, we could never hope to be pure enough to achieve heaven. As long as we believe and trust in Christ, He lifts us up from our sinful abyss and robes us in righteousness.

Yes,but more than belief is required. Read James 2:18-19.

Luther was a devout Catholic monk. He joined the order of the Observant Augustinians and tried desperately to purify himself in God’s eyes. He prayed fastidiously and fasted for long periods and deprived himself of all comforts to earn God’s favor. But he knew he was a sinful creature and could never obtain a state of no sin. After years of theological study and Biblical teaching he realized that no one could ever achieve heaven without God’s grace. God loves us beyond anything we could ever know and by His grace he will deliver us if we place our trust in Him and give our lives to Him.

And do honestly believe Luther was the first Christian in 1500 years to have the knowledge and wisdom to accept God alone saves us though His Graces?

The number of denominations does not matter.

To Protestants it does not matter,but not one Word out of God’s mouth he agrees with your position. Humans words really have no bearing on doctrinal Truth.

Religious traditions and culture are manmade (not God-made) creations. They can change–and will change–but Jesus is unchanging.

So Jewish religious traditions are baseless and meaningless? Another Protestant flaw and profound misunderstanding. Of course human traditions exist,what traditions are we to follow? Dog traditions? When one really looks at it such a premise is absurd.

As long as the church continues to make him the center of the church, and as long as the followers continue to serve and glorify Him, he will deliver each one.

Which church my friend?

 

[pablope]

Sounds like we’re discussing which religion is correct when the issue is and always has been Jesus Christ, who is king of kings and lord of all.

Well…which religion is correct and which is not? Are you able to tell? Is there going to be only one that is correct or several who are correct?

Did Jesus establish several truths or only one truth? And which one teaches the one and full and complete truth?

After teaching about Christ as king…where do the different religions go askance? How about those religions who do not teach Christ as king?

I realize Catholics always cite the fact that “Catholicism came first” as the reason it is the one true religion.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:MatthewMark
But where is it written that Protestantism is wrong?

And where is it written, God Himself approved of Protestanism and gave it authority to divide His Church? I thought Protestants do not follow man-made traditions?

 

[pablope]

Very similar here. How do know if you understand his message in the bible…? But answer 771 first please…I try to ask one question at a time. An observation is that your bible is missing 7 books (most likely), removed by a printing company. So you can’t begin to know his complete message without the complete written Word.

Argh! I wrote out a complete response to this, but it didn’t save. (One more time!)

The 7 books you refer to were included in Luther’s Bible and called the Apocrypha, an appendix to the Old Testament.

 

[joe370]

Quote:MatthewMark
But where is it written that Protestantism is wrong?

The sola scriptura advocate believes that a teaching or belief can only be believed or embraced if that teaching/belief is firmly rooted in scripture - right? For example, the assumption of Mary is not found in scripture, therefore protestants reject it - correct?

 

[MatthewMark]

Sure. Until you start talking about doctrine. Then you realize that you are* separated *brethren. :sad_yes:

I disagree. All Christians are connected by the doctrine that matters most: Jesus Christ. All agree that he is the son of God who died for our sins. Other doctrinal differences between Protestant churches are of little to no consequence and do not differ from Christ as the center of the church. Various Bible translations can and are used by attendees of the same church–King James, New King James, NIV, NLT, etc. A Baptist can attend services at a Methodist church or Church of Christ or Lutheran church and feel completely comfortable. Ceremony and song may differ, but the message is constant.

 

[MatthewMark]

This is very Catholic of you to say, MM.

As is this.

It’s above our pay grade as Catholics to declare to whom God metes out “harsher punishments.”

Very good. : ) But part of the Catholic faith is believing that it is the one true Christian religion, which places any Protestant religion in the wrong to some degree. I have even heard (or believed I heard) a Catholic priest on WEBN Catholic Radio say that this division was not God-inspired, but Satan-inspired. That’s a bold accusation and one fervent Protestants would reject vehemently.

 

[PRmerger]

I disagree. All Christians are connected by the doctrine that matters most: Jesus Christ. All agree that he is the son of God who died for our sins. Other doctrinal differences between Protestant churches are of little to no consequence and do not differ from Christ as the center of the church. Various Bible translations can and are used by attendees of the same church–King James, New King James, NIV, NLT, etc. A Baptist can attend services at a Methodist church or Church of Christ or Lutheran church and feel completely comfortable. Ceremony and song may differ, but the message is constant.

Well, the theology reminds me of the theology that was proclaimed at my daughter’s Vacation Bible School this summer: kiddie theology.

No one will disagree with the fact that God made me! God loves me! Jesus forgives my sins!

But if you want to stay at the kiddie theology level, then that’s what you’re going to have to do if you want to avoid doctrinal disagreements with your fellow Bible-believing Christian brethren.

I believe that God commanded us to love him with our MIND. That means we need to go beyond kiddie theology.

 

[PRmerger]

Very good. : ) But part of the Catholic faith is believing that it is the one true Christian religion, which places any Protestant religion in the wrong to some degree. I have even heard (or believed I heard) a Catholic priest on WEBN Catholic Radio say that this division was not God-inspired, but Satan-inspired. That’s a bold accusation and one fervent Protestants would reject vehemently.

I do think that the Author of Chaos and Confusion is very very pleased with the chaos and confusion that has arisen courtesy of the Protestant Reformation’s mantra: Church? We don’t need no Church! We just need Me, The Bible and the Holy Spirit!

Thanks to the above paradigm we have millions of Christians who don’t know whether

Baptism saves? Or is it an ordinance? Or a sacrament? Or a symbol?
The day of worship is Sunday? Or is it Saturday?
We are once saved, always saved? Or we can lose our salvation?
Women can be ordained? Or only men can?
Abortion is a sin? Or a sacrament?
Divorce and remarriage is adultery? Or is it permissible?
Worship should involve music? Or is it an abomination?
The Eucharist is merely a symbol? Or is it the Real Presence? Or a commemoration?



So, yes, I think the Author of Chaos and Confusion looks at the reality of Christian confusion and smiles. :sad_yes:

 

[Porknpie]

Very good. : ) But part of the Catholic faith is believing that it is the one true Christian religion, which places any Protestant religion in the wrong to some degree. I have even heard (or believed I heard) a Catholic priest on WEBN Catholic Radio say that this division was not God-inspired, but Satan-inspired. That’s a bold accusation and one fervent Protestants would reject vehemently.

MatthewMark-

The Catechism is clear that the Catholic church contains the fullness of truth. Christ taught that the evil one would attack his flock and the evil one has. Jesus called for his people to be united, not divided and said the “those who hear you, hear me.” Who is the “you” he is referring to? It is not bold to say it is the Catholic church, but it is bold to say it is a church that was formed, 1600, 1700, 1800+ years later.

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

 

[jlhargus]

I disagree. All Christians are connected by the doctrine that matters most: Jesus Christ. All agree that he is the son of God who died for our sins. Other doctrinal differences between Protestant churches are of little to no consequence and do not differ from Christ as the center of the church. Various Bible translations can and are used by attendees of the same church–King James, New King James, NIV, NLT, etc. A Baptist can attend services at a Methodist church or Church of Christ or Lutheran church and feel completely comfortable. Ceremony and song may differ, but the message is constant.

JL: Really what if the Methodist preached OSAS is false? What if the Church of Christ preached baptism is nescessary for salvation and one must belong to the Church of Christ? What if the Lutheran preached the real presents of Christ in communion? I was Protestant I know better. The Baptist might not be uncomfortable even in a Cathholic Church. Yet he would be disagreeing in his thoughts and wanting to correct the preacher.

Very good. : ) But part of the Catholic faith is believing that it is the one true Christian religion, which places any Protestant religion in the wrong to some degree.

JL: Yes that’s why I’m Catholic and no longer Protestant. Yes that would place any Protestant religion in the wrong TO SOME DEGREE. Just as I, as a former Protestant, would have considerd Baptist, or other Protestant denominations, WRONG to some degree.

I have even heard (or believed I heard) a Catholic priest on WEBN Catholic Radio say that this division was not God-inspired, but Satan-inspired. That’s a bold accusation and one fervent Protestants would reject vehemently.

JL: Amen. Sola scriptura is Satan’s playground to scatter people of faith into thousands of contentious groups. The Lord gathers his sheep into one. Scattering gives the wolves plenty of food to make them fat.

 

[KathleenGee]

Just think…over 500 years ago, these kinds of disputes did not exist.