Protestants, why?

  • Thread starter Thread starter enickman
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I disagree. All Christians are connected by the doctrine that matters most: Jesus Christ. All agree that he is the son of God who died for our sins. **Other doctrinal differences between Protestant churches are of little to no consequence and do not differ from Christ as the center of the church. **Various Bible translations can and are used by attendees of the same church–King James, New King James, NIV, NLT, etc. A Baptist can attend services at a Methodist church or Church of Christ or Lutheran church and feel completely comfortable. Ceremony and song may differ, but the message is constant.
Matthew,

You suggest that Christians are connected by the Doctrine that matters most. You say Jesus Christ. All agree that He, no he, is the Son, not son of God who died for our sins and then you say that Christ is the center of the Church.

I am not sure which Protestant Church you come from…let me ask you…

Jehovah Witness
Mormons
Oneness Pentacostals

have some unique versions of Christ…do you claim them as being united in Christ using the Bible alone?

Your doctrine of Christ as the center of the Church is in error and I must tell you that Paul says Christ is the head of the Church and the Church is the Body of Christ. Let us agree on this.
 
Very good. : ) But part of the Catholic faith is believing that it is the one true Christian religion, which places any Protestant religion in the wrong to some degree. I have even heard (or believed I heard) a Catholic priest on WEBN Catholic Radio say that this division was not God-inspired, but Satan-inspired. That’s a bold accusation and one fervent Protestants would reject vehemently.
Let me ask you…does God inspire unity or disunity?

Would God contradict the Word of God…His own word…here…John 17:20-23
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one — 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

How does the different flavors of Protetasim fulfill the bringing of complete unity (see v23)?

Or from Eph:… 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

How does protestantism full the one lord, one faith, one baptism?

Who is laughing at the disunity that protestantism brought upon Christianity…God or Satan?

Prior to Protestantism…everyone Christian believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist…after…there are those who do not…so let me ask…who do you think is shredding tears for those who are taught to disbelieve in the RP…Christ or Satan?

Here is a real life account of what Protestantism brought upon a country…a true account of a missionary couple who applied Sola Scriptura in their mission…and this is their story…freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1858224/posts

excerpts:

And finally, the Protestant notion of sola scriptura (the Bible alone) fell apart each time I tried to test it. I began to see that Evangelicalism’s insistence on going by the Bible alone led continually into division and problems. Worse yet, claiming to go by the Bible alone didn’t really provide any certitude of belief for believers.

A bigger problem is the disease of dissension, which is endemic to protestantism. When the Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Fundamentalists, and the other well-meaning missionaries came to Guatemala, they brought with them all the doctrinal spats that American churches split over. Guatemalan churches, like their American counterparts, are constantly in a state of strife and doctrinal turmoil, splitting into new churches. New denominations spring up in Guatemala at a breathtaking rate. Pastors, (often self-proclaimed, with little or no education) found new churches, taking large portions of their former congregations with them.

**I asked myself where was the “one body, one faith, and one baptism” St. Paul spoke about so passionately? I began to fear that the answer could not be what American missionaries were peddling, at least it couldn’t be the whole answer. **

I thought about this choose-your-own-church syndrome constantly. While all of us missionaries from these various denominations proclaimed the purity of our gospel, the truth was, there was no way for any of us to know for sure which of us had it “most right.”

The most astonishing discovery came when it dawned on me through long hours of reading and studying Scripture and conservative Evangelical commentaries on biblical sufficiency that Scripture doesn’t even teach that it alone is sufficient for knowing all Truth about the Faith. Protestants presuppose sola scriptura, without giving the slightest thought to the possibility that the “Bible alone” is an incorrect view. If that presupposition were erroneous, I reasoned, then everything which was built upon it would be dubious as well.

After reading this…can you be sure that protestantism, disunity, is from Christ or Satan?
 
Well, the theology reminds me of the theology that was proclaimed at my daughter’s Vacation Bible School this summer: kiddie theology.

No one will disagree with the fact that God made me! God loves me! Jesus forgives my sins!

But if you want to stay at the kiddie theology level, then that’s what you’re going to have to do if you want to avoid doctrinal disagreements with your fellow Bible-believing Christian brethren.

I believe that God commanded us to love him with our MIND. That means we need to go beyond kiddie theology.
I’m not sure what you mean by “kiddie theology.” If you’re comparing the church’s Biblical teaching between adults and children, then you’re comparing apples and oranges. Biblical teaching in Protestant churches goes far beyond “Jesus loves me,” but then you knew that already, right? ; ) I’m telling you that Protestant churches disagree on far less than you believe. I’ve attended Lutheran, Brethren, Baptist, and Independent church services. The only difference I see is with presentation. The core truth of each church is Jesus Christ and his relationship with mankind.
 
Let me ask you…does God inspire unity or disunity?

Would God contradict the Word of God…His own word…here…John 17:20-23
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one — 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

How does the different flavors of Protetasim fulfill the bringing of complete unity (see v23)?

Or from Eph:… 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

How does protestantism full the one lord, one faith, one baptism?

Who is laughing at the disunity that protestantism brought upon Christianity…God or Satan?

Prior to Protestantism…everyone Christian believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist…after…there are those who do not…so let me ask…who do you think is shredding tears for those who are taught to disbelieve in the RP…Christ or Satan?

Here is a real life account of what Protestantism brought upon a country…a true account of a missionary couple who applied Sola Scriptura in their mission…and this is their story…freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1858224/posts

excerpts:

And finally, the Protestant notion of sola scriptura (the Bible alone) fell apart each time I tried to test it. I began to see that Evangelicalism’s insistence on going by the Bible alone led continually into division and problems. Worse yet, claiming to go by the Bible alone didn’t really provide any certitude of belief for believers.

A bigger problem is the disease of dissension, which is endemic to protestantism. When the Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Fundamentalists, and the other well-meaning missionaries came to Guatemala, they brought with them all the doctrinal spats that American churches split over. Guatemalan churches, like their American counterparts, are constantly in a state of strife and doctrinal turmoil, splitting into new churches. New denominations spring up in Guatemala at a breathtaking rate. Pastors, (often self-proclaimed, with little or no education) found new churches, taking large portions of their former congregations with them.

**I asked myself where was the “one body, one faith, and one baptism” St. Paul spoke about so passionately? I began to fear that the answer could not be what American missionaries were peddling, at least it couldn’t be the whole answer. **

I thought about this choose-your-own-church syndrome constantly. While all of us missionaries from these various denominations proclaimed the purity of our gospel, the truth was, there was no way for any of us to know for sure which of us had it “most right.”

The most astonishing discovery came when it dawned on me through long hours of reading and studying Scripture and conservative Evangelical commentaries on biblical sufficiency that Scripture doesn’t even teach that it alone is sufficient for knowing all Truth about the Faith. Protestants presuppose sola scriptura, without giving the slightest thought to the possibility that the “Bible alone” is an incorrect view. If that presupposition were erroneous, I reasoned, then everything which was built upon it would be dubious as well.

After reading this…can you be sure that protestantism, disunity, is from Christ or Satan?
Where you see disunity, I see unity. Each and every denomination you name is Christ-centered.

Let me ask you: If Luther had ignored his dissenting thoughts, how long would it have been before someone else had those same thoughts and questioned the Church’s authority? A split was bound to happen, but not a split from Jesus and his teachings. It was a split from the Church’s proclaimed infallibility. Luther redirected the idea of infallibility back to God. Both religions agree that God is infallible and seek to serve Him completely. Unquestionably, more people today know God because of the competition created between Catholicism and Protestantism. Would Satan have desired this?
 
Where you see disunity, I see unity. Each and every denomination you name is Christ-centered.

Let me ask you: If Luther had ignored his dissenting thoughts, how long would it have been before someone else had those same thoughts and questioned the Church’s authority? A split was bound to happen, but not a split from Jesus and his teachings. It was a split from the Church’s proclaimed infallibility. Luther redirected the idea of infallibility back to God. Both religions agree that God is infallible and seek to serve Him completely. Unquestionably, more people today know God because of the competition created between Catholicism and Protestantism. Would Satan have desired this?
You see unity??? haha… i can’t help but laugh, im sorry… i could almost be certain, that before any reformation most Catholics (christians) were true and practising Christians. The PROTESTant reformation and the subsequent reformations and splits only encouraged people to protest against their faith (whatever it would have been) and ultimately cause confusion and down the road to atheism…

the flip side is, that the reformation encouraged people to interpret the bible using their own skills (no matter how limited they were) and leading into the establishment of over 33,000 denominations… which ultimately is the results of the deliberate twisting of God’s commandment. PERIOD. God would want his word to remain eternal… Jesus was the final covenant with the UNIVSERAL world which was to remain unchanged until the end of time.

Anyway, as much as i can say on this topic, i will leave it to your willingness to open your heart to the Holy Spirit… God bless brothers 🙂
 
I’m trying to listen to all sides (Catholic and Protestant) to make up my mind about what to believe. Here’s what I need and would like help with: I quoted 2Tim 3:15 and 1Cor 4:6 in support of SS:
  1. “from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (2Tim 3:15, NIV)” which seems to say that the scriptures are all one needs to know what is required for salvation.
JL: As far as, 2Tm3:16-17, teaching scripture ALONE it doesn’t. In fact Paul tells Timothy to USE his teaching authority (magisterial authority) USING both scripture and Oral Tradition. back up to verse 14.

[2Tm3:14 But **CONTINUE THOU IN THE THINGS WHICH THOU HAST LEARNED AND hast BEEN ASSURED OF, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;]

[Verse:15 And that **from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and **is profitable for **doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.]

The scriptures Timothy would have known as a CHILD was the OT only, there was no NT yet. KNOWING the OT would have made the reader wise and able to recognize with faith the Messiah.

Continue into chapter 4. There we see Timothy an overseer (bishop) IS the teaching AUTHORITY. That authority, Timothy, is to PREACH THE WORD, REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT WITH DOCTRINE. Making full use of his MINISTRY.

[2Tm4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season; REPROVE, REBUKE, EXHORT WITH all long suffering and DOCTRINE. 3 For THE TIME WILL COME WHEN THEY WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 AND THEY SHALL TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, MAKE FULL PROOF OF THY MINISTRY]
 
  1. Do not go beyond what is written. (1Cor 4:6, NIV)" Seems to teach that Christians shouldn’t go beyond the written word of God. My Protestant friends quote this verse often and I don’t know how to interpret it.
Here’s the verses before and after 1Cor 4:6 so you can see the context. It appears Paul is quoting a saying that he heard from somewhere (I couldn’t find it in the OT or anywhere else in the Bible):

1Cor 4:1-7 (NIV):

“So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?”

I appreciate all the helpful responses that seem to refute my interpretation of these verses. What I’d like to know now is how these two verses (2Tim 3:15 and 1Cor 4:6) should be interpreted.What is the meaning of "the holy Scriptures are able to make you wise for salvation"
JL: The footnote in the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible says, “Paul cautions believers to stay within the limits of personal humility defined by the Scriptures.” Referring to OT warnings about boasting quoted in 1Cor1:19, I will destroy, Is29:14. 1Cor1:31, Let him who boasts, paraphrase of the Greek version of Jer9:24. 1Cor3:19-20, Job5:13.

My opinion, Paul calls, “Do not go beyond what is written”, a SAYING. The saying itself would appear to have been an oral Tradition outside scripture. If so to interpret it in support of sola scriptura would contradict scripture. Because Paul went beyond what was written. The burden of proof would be on those who say it teaches sola scriptura. They must show, that saying, “Do not go beyond what is written”, is in scripture before Paul wrote it in scripture. Otherwise they are making a tradition of men a doctrine contrary to scripture.

Even if taken literally oral Tradition is not going beyond the written word as the written word clearly tells us to hold oral Tradition.

The Church RECEIVED her beliefs from the Word of God, handed down by the Apostles, whether by WORD (Oral Apostolic Tradition) or EPISTLE (Scripture), 2 THES 2:14. The Church was orally teaching, preaching, converting and faithfully passing on that Apostolic Tradition about twenty years before the first word of the NT was written. Except for John all the apostles were dead before the NT was completely written and centuries before a set canon of books.

The Scriptures tell us to HOLD FAST to BOTH, oral AND written, Traditions.

[2 THES 2:14 Whereunto he called you by **OUR GOSPEL, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and HOLD the TRADITIONS which ye have been TAUGHT, whether BY word, OR our epistle.]

Yet many ignore their proclaimed only authority, inventing a tradition of men, to nullify scripture. Going outside scripture saying, ALL Oral Tradition is now in scripture. Even though scripture clearly says we are to hold BOTH. There isn’t any scripture telling us Oral Traditions are ALL now in the written Word. But there are several that tell us to hold Tradition. The burden of proof would be on those who claim ALL Tradition is in scripture. Both are the Word of God.

[1Thes2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when **ye RECEIVED the WORD OF GOD which ye HEARD of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is IN TRUTH, the WORD OF GOD, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.]

[1Tim6: Timothy, **KEEP THAT WHICH IS COMMITTED TO THY TRUST, avoiding profane and vain babblings,]

Philip4:9 THOSE THINGS, which YE HAVE both LEARNED, and RECEIVED, and HEARD, and SEEN IN ME, DO

Jn14: 26: But the Comforter, which is THE HOLY GHOST, whom the Father will send in my name, he SHALL TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring all things to your remembrance, WHATSOEVER I have SAID UNTO YOU.

2Tim2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And THE THINGS that THOU HAST HEARD OF ME among many witnesses, THE SAME COMMIT thou TO FAITHFUL MEN, who shall be **ABLE TO TEACH OTHERS **also.

2Tim1:13 HOLD FAST the form of SOUND WORDS, which thou hast HEARD OF ME, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 THAT GOOD THING which was COMMITTED unto thee KEEP BY THE HOLY GHOST which dwelleth IN US.

[2Thes3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye **WITHDRAW yourselves FROM EVERY BROTHER THAT WALKETH disorderly, and NOT AFTER THE TRADITION which he RECEIVED OF US.]

[2THES 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye **withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the TRADITION which he received of US.] It seems Tradition is of such importance that one who does not follow them are to be shunned. Sounds like, [Mt18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, **TELL IT UNTO THE CHURCH: but IF HE NEGLECT TO HEAR THE CHURCH, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.]

Oral Divine or Apostolic Traditions are discerned by the Church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Oral and Written Traditions cannot be contradictory. Oral Traditions are found in the constant lived out life of the Church. It is discerned from teachings of councils, popes, writings of the Fathers, creeds, prayers, liturgy, etc…

There are traditions of men and Divine Tradition. Divine Traditions are those Traditions handed on by the apostles whether by word (oral) or epistle (scripture) 2Thes2:15. There are also traditions of men. Christ didn’t even condemn traditions of men EXCEPT when those traditions of men nullify the Word. [Mk7:13 **Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.]

Examples of traditions of men, made a doctrine, to nullify the Word, would be. Faith alone saves, born again the minute one believes, baptism profession only, belivers only baptism, sola scriptura, scripture interprets scripture, all oral Apostolic Tradition now in scripture, OSAS, invisible church, irresistible grace, dispensationalism, secret rapture. None of those are taught in the Bible they actually contradict it.

A doctrine taught by the apostles orally would be the canon of the bible, The evidence is found in the lived out Traditions of the Church and those books agreement with that Tradition. Another, infant baptism, the evidence is found in the scriptures, where it is implied, and the constant lived out Tradition of the Church. Others would be the Trinity. The evidence is found in the scriptures, where it is implied, and the lived out Tradition of the Church as discerned and defined by Councils or the Pope. The mode of baptism by immersion is not taught in the bible. It is only known thru the lived out Tradition of the early Church. When the Lord’s prayer is concluded with; for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory now and forever. That is an oral Tradition coming from the liturgy (worship service) being said after the Lord’s Prayer.
 
Where you see disunity, I see unity. Each and every denomination you name is Christ-centered.
well, MM apparently there is this profoundly terrible disunity that exists between you and I (instigated by none other than Satan himself) and if we met in a dark alley we would (no doubt) be at each other’s throats. It sure is a good thing that these good Catholics bothered to inform me…otherwise I would have been inclined to shake your hand and offer to buy you a coffee. 😉
 
I’m not sure what you mean by “kiddie theology.” If you’re comparing the church’s Biblical teaching between adults and children, then you’re comparing apples and oranges. Biblical teaching in Protestant churches goes far beyond “Jesus loves me,” but then you knew that already, right? ; ) I’m telling you that Protestant churches disagree on far less than you believe. I’ve attended Lutheran, Brethren, Baptist, and Independent church services.** The only difference I see is with presentation.** The core truth of each church is Jesus Christ and his relationship with mankind.
:bigyikes:

I’m sorry, but the bolded is ridiculous.

EDIT: Let me know when the baptists and independents teach infant baptism, regenerative baptism, the real presence in the Lord’s Supper, that one can choose to reject justification, the value of confession and Holy Absolution.

It is far more than presentation.

Jon
 
Originally Posted by XianThinker
2. “Do not go beyond what is written. (1Cor 4:6, NIV)" Seems to teach that Christians shouldn’t go beyond the written word of God. My Protestant friends quote this verse often and I don’t know how to interpret it.
In regards to the bolded:
  1. How does the above verse support or advocate the Bible-only?
  2. Did Paul write such words in defense of Sola Scriptura?
  3. What exact set of books are being included in such a statement?
 
:bigyikes:

I’m sorry, but the bolded is ridiculous.
ridiculous? that’s a little harse…have you been spending too much time with the conservative catholics here?
EDIT: Let me know when the baptists and independents teach infant baptism, regenerative baptism, the real presence in the Lord’s Supper,…
my wife is Lutheran…yes, they teach infant baptism, but in substance it is little different from the baby dedications of the baptists and yes, they teach a real presence, but it is little different from the presence of Christ where two or more are gathered (and they know that a real bodily presence can’t be established by either scripture or early tradition)…let me know when your version speaks for all Lutherans 😉
It is far more than presentation.
so MM couldn’t have witnessed what he claims to have seen?
 
=Radical;9705786]ridiculous? that’s a little harse…have you been spending too much time with the conservative catholics here?
Maybe. If so, I apologize to MatthewMark. Let’s just say that,** for me**, the differences I sited as examples are significant!!
my wife is Lutheran…yes, they teach infant baptism, but in substance it is little different from the baby dedications of the baptists and yes, they teach a real presence, but it is little different from the presence of Christ where two or more are gathered (and they know that a real bodily presence can’t be established by either scripture or early tradition)…let me know when your version speaks for all Lutherans 😉
If it lacks difference, why not call it Baptism. And the real, substantial presence is much more than “where two or more…”. I receive His true body and blood orally.

It isn’t my version. It is the Lutheran Confessions, which do speak for all who claim to be Lutheran!

From ther Augsburg Confession:
Article IX: Of Baptism.
1] Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary 2] to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God’s grace.
3] They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism.
From the Apology of the Augsburg Confession:
Article IX: Of Baptism.
51] The Ninth Article has been approved, in which we confess that Baptism is necessary to salvation, and that children are to be baptized, and that the baptism of children is not in vain, but is necessary and effectual to salvation. 52] And since the Gospel is taught among us purely and diligently, by God’s favor we receive also from it this fruit, that in our Churches no Anabaptists have arisen [have not gained ground in our Churches], because the people have been fortified by God’s Word against the wicked and seditious faction of these robbers. And as we condemn quite a number of other errors of the Anabaptists, we condemn this also, that they dispute that the baptism of little children is profitable. For it is very certain that the promise of salvation pertains also to little children [that the divine promises of grace and of the Holy Ghost belong not alone to the old, but also to children]. It does not, however, pertain to those who are outside of Christ’s Church, where there is neither Word nor Sacraments, because the kingdom of Christ exists only with the Word and Sacraments. Therefore it is necessary to baptize little children, that the promise of salvation may be applied to them, according to Christ’s command, Matt. 28:19: Baptize all nations. Just as here salvation is offered to all, so Baptism is offered to all, to men, women, children, infants. It clearly follows, therefore, that infants are to be baptized, because with Baptism salvation [the universal grace and treasure of the Gospel] is offered. 53] Secondly, it is manifest that God approves of the baptism of little children. Therefore the Anabaptists, who condemn the baptism of little children, believe wickedly. That God, however, approves of the baptism of little children is shown by this, namely, that God gives the Holy Ghost to those thus baptized [to many who have been baptized in childhood]. For if this baptism would be in vain, the Holy Ghost would be given to none, none would be saved, and finally there would be no Church. [For there have been many holy men in the Church who have not been baptized otherwise.] This reason, even taken alone, can sufficiently establish good and godly minds against the godless and fanatical opinions of the Anabaptists.
From the Augsburg Confession:
Article X: Of the Lord’s Supper.
1] Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed 2] to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.
From The Apology
Article X: Of the Holy Supper.
54] The Tenth Article has been approved, in which we confess that we believe,** that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament.** This belief we constantly defend, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. For since Paul says, 1 Cor. 10:16, that the bread is the communion of the Lord’s body, etc., it would follow, if the Lord’s body were not truly present, that the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of the spirit of Christ. 55] And we have ascertained that not only the Roman Church affirms the bodily presence of Christ, but the Greek Church also both now believes, and formerly believed, the same. For the canon of the Mass among them testifies to this, in which the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become the very body of Christ. And Vulgarius, who seems to us to be not a silly writer, says distinctly that bread is not a mere figure, but 56] is truly changed into flesh. And there is a long exposition of Cyril on John 15, in which he teaches that Christ is corporeally offered us in the Supper. For he says thus: Nevertheless, we do not deny that we are joined spiritually to Christ by true faith and sincere love. But that we have no mode of connection with Him, according to the flesh, this indeed we entirely deny. And this, we say, is altogether foreign to the divine Scriptures. For who has doubted that Christ is in this manner a vine, and we the branches, deriving thence life for ourselves? Hear Paul saying 1 Cor. 10:17; Rom. 12:5; Gal. 3:28: We are all one body in Christ; although we are many, we are, nevertheless, one in Him; for we are, all partakers of that one bread. Does he perhaps think that the virtue of the mystical benediction is unknown to us? Since this is in us, does it not also, by the communication of Christ’s flesh, cause Christ to dwell in us bodily? And a little after: Whence we must consider that Christ is in us not only according to the habit, which we call love, 57] but also by natural participation, etc. We have cited these testimonies, not to undertake a discussion here concerning this subject, for His Imperial Majesty does not disapprove of this article, but in order that all who may read them may the more clearly perceive that we defend the doctrine received in the entire Church, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered with those things which are seen, bread and wine. And we speak of the presence of the living Christ [living body]; for we know that death hath no more dominion over Him, Rom. 6:9.
so MM couldn’t have witnessed what he claims to have seen?
Perhaps, and I would not question his word as much as the confessional nature of the Lutheran worship he witnessed.

Jon
 
Maybe. If so, I apologize to MatthewMark. Let’s just say that,** for me**, the differences I sited as examples are significant!!
I know…you, of all those here, are the one that I would like to see answer this thread’s question. My answer should be obvious, but I would categorize you as being “more Catholic” than the typical cafeteria Catholic. (for the record I view that last term positively)…so if those good folks can find a way to remain within the CC, why aren’t you there?
If it lacks difference, why not call it Baptism.
b/c it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck….
It isn’t my version. It is the Lutheran Confessions, which do speak for all who claim to be Lutheran!
and some Lutherans view those Confessions as just some more fallible traditions…that one can improve upon
Perhaps, and I would not question his word as much as the confessional nature of the Lutheran worship he witnessed.
good…
 
=Radical;9705887]I know…you, of all those here, are the one that I would like to see answer this thread’s question.
I thinnk I did, early on, but it has been a very long thread. 😃
My answer should be obvious, but I would categorize you as being “more Catholic” than the typical cafeteria Catholic. (for the record I view that last term positively)…so if those good folks can find a way to remain within the CC, why aren’t you there?
Ecclesiology, mainly.
b/c it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck….
Is this the duck in question?
Small catechism:
IV. The Sacrament of Holy Baptism
As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.
What is Baptism?–Answer.
Baptism is not simple water only, but it is the water comprehended in God’s command and connected with God’s Word.
Which is that word of God?–Answer.
Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Matthew: Go ye into all the world and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
Secondly.
What does Baptism give or profit?–Answer.
** It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.**
Which are such words and promises of God? Answer.
Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
How can water do such great things?–Answer.
It is not the water indeed that does them, but the word of God which is in and with the water, and faith, which trusts such word of God in the water. For without the word of God the water is simple water and no baptism. But with the word of God it is a baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as St. Paul says, Titus, chapter three: By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.
Fourthly.
What does such baptizing with water signify?–Answer.
It signifies that the old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts, and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise; who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.
Where is this written?–Answer.
St. Paul says Romans, chapter 6: We are buried with Christ by Baptism into death, that, like as He was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Water and the word? It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare?
For all, including infants? One baptism for the remission of sin?
If that’s what Baptists believe, I stand corrected. It is simply a matter of presentation.
and some Lutherans view those Confessions as just some more fallible traditions…that one can improve upon
Enough to deny the central tenants of Lutheranism? Then I would contend they are Christian, but not confessional Lutheran.

Jon
 
Radical.

Post #9
Originally Posted by enickman
This question could have been asked already, but I’ll ask it anyway. Why are you Protestant? What about the Catholic Church do you not agree with and why?
Basically, ecclesiology. I do not see universal jurisdiction in either scripture or the Tradition (councils) of the early Church.

Jon
 
I disagree. All Christians are connected by the doctrine that matters most: Jesus Christ. All agree that he is the son of God who died for our sins. Other doctrinal differences between Protestant churches are of little to no consequence and do not differ from Christ as the center of the church. Various Bible translations can and are used by attendees of the same church–King James, New King James, NIV, NLT, etc. A Baptist can attend services at a Methodist church or Church of Christ or Lutheran church and feel completely comfortable. Ceremony and song may differ, but the message is constant.
You’re kidding right?
You are aware CAF is not filled with a bunch of cradle Catholics who have never darkened the door of any church if it doesn’t have a “St” in it, right? A good portion of the membership here are former Protestants.
What you describe is simply not reality.
 
:bigyikes:

I’m sorry, but the bolded is ridiculous.

EDIT: Let me know when the baptists and independents teach infant baptism, regenerative baptism, the real presence in the Lord’s Supper, that one can choose to reject justification, the value of confession and Holy Absolution.

It is far more than presentation.

Jon
👍
 
ridiculous? that’s a little harse…have you been spending too much time with the conservative catholics here?

my wife is Lutheran…
“Conservative”? :confused: I read on this website Catholics who are well catechised to the teaching of the Catholic church. How do you define conservative?

Is your wife ELCA?
 
“Conservative”? :confused: I read on this website Catholics who are well catechised to the teaching of the Catholic church. How do you define conservative?

Is your wife ELCA?
I’m guessing Radical meant it as an insult. When you fail on substance, resort to ad hominem…!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top