Protestants

[Michael_Francis]

Consolidated Stickies For the Apologetics Forum.

 

[Lisa44]

***This thread is deviating from it’s topic which is Protestantism, not divorces, annulments, etc etc.

Please get back on topic and carry on or the thread will be closed.***

I apologize for diverging from the OP. However, I was asking about divorce in the Protestant Church so I do not think that was off topic.

The way you responded, I would think it was a grave offense to compare divorce in the Protestant versus Catholic faith.

I’ve seen many threads that go slightly off topic. Your reaction makes me think I hit a nerve.

 

[coleraine]

I apologize for diverging from the OP. However, I was asking about divorce in the Protestant Church so I do not think that was off topic.

The way you responded, I would think it was a grave offense to compare divorce in the Protestant versus Catholic faith.

I’ve seen many threads that go slightly off topic. Your reaction makes me think I hit a nerve.

yah really. he overreacts sometimes. anyway i think i made my point so do you guys have anything else to discuss? anything at all about the herecies of protestantism and how to confront it would be on topic.

 

[lofktis14kr]

Indeed much of the protestant church is in a very sad, and lamentable condition. There are many in mainstrean evangelicalism who don’t understand the first thing about Biblical doctrine. Many have departed so far from the orthodoxy established during the reformation that they don’t even know who Martin Luther is, let alone care about his concerns with Rome’s doctrine. For this reason, such churches don’t deserve to be called protestant. They mislead people as to what holy conduct really looks like, while teaching little to nothing as to what God has accomplished in Jesus Christ

We have to confront such problems with patience and charity (as in all things). It isn’t as much fun as blasting them with everything we’ve got, but it’s much more effective. We have to remember that we are not out to win arguments, but to win souls

I so appreciate this statement. The Scriptures bind us to such an approach. (2 Tim. 2:24-26)

 

[Agabus]

Hi

I just don’t get it at all. I mean, come on, there was not even a protestant church until Luther, and that was only 500 years ago. Protestantism has been around for a 1/4 of what Catholicism has, and yet protestants act as though their religion has been around for such a long time.

I can point you to plenty of Protestants who can talk to you for hours and hours and hours about what they perceive to be problems in the Catholic Church (and I’m talking about major doctrinal issues such as the magisterium, the roles of faith and works, the proper view of the Eucharist, etc.). The reason they are PROTESTant is because they think something is wrong — the majority of them are not just fooling around and acting rebellious because they think throwing rocks at authority is cool. They may be wrong, but they aren’t flippant.

That said, there are lots of evangelicals and other Christians outside the fold who are ignorant and hold some wacky views, all the while believing they were passed down by Jesus himself because that is what they as an individual believe…of course, there are Catholics who have the same problem.

Many talk bad about Catholics for no reason, and never have any idea what they are talking about.

And?..I can send you to several Catholics I know who don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to Catholicism.

Besides Luther, what caused all this? How do people get convinced so easily that somehow the church that was the one and only church for so long was all of a sudden wrong, just because a man said so? Im sorry if i have offended any protestants, but if this is the case…just ask yourself if it makes one bit of sense.

You do realize that there were a number of big time Protestant leaders other than Luther, right? He may have been the breaking point, but — unlike what popular history will tell you — he was not the first, and he was not the final word over the next two hundred years. (I could also point out that the church had already been broken by schism when the Filloque broke the proverbial camel’s back. The Protestant rebellion just splintered the church more, sadly.)

But to answer your question, what caused the Protestant schism, as much as if not more than Luther’s theology, was geopolitics. Local leaders took an issue of theology and found a way to exploit it to their political advantage. It may have been good for their fiefdoms, but it left the church marred.

Frankly, it’s often Catholics who give me more pause about taking the step from attending Mass to coming into full communion with the Church. Your attitude is unhelpful and, as someone else pointed out, a good Protestant apologist could take you out to the woodshed.

 

[Thaddeus]

Yes, everyone got it wrong for 1500 years. Then, miraclously, Luther came along, changed the canon of the Bible on his own authority, and got it right !

The really sad part about protest-antism is that people are now protesting their own leaders. We have 3 or 4 Lutheran Churches, 5 or 6 Presbyterian Churches, and now we are having a schism of the Episcopalean Church. The Reformation keeps going and going and going, like the Energizer Bunny, splitting Christians into smaller and smaller camps. “My followers will be as one”, says Jesus. Paul laments this splitting up in 1 Corinthians 1:[12] What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apol’los,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” [13] Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Sadly, protestants ignore these two passages of scripture to do their own thing. Only the Catholic Church was started by Jesus. All of the rest were started by men, on their own authority…

Who started your Church?
catholicbible101.com/whostartedyourchurch.htm

 

[Church_Militant]

I can point you to plenty of Protestants who can talk to you for hours and hours and hours about what they perceive to be problems in the Catholic Church (and I’m talking about major doctrinal issues such as the magisterium, the roles of faith and works, the proper view of the Eucharist, etc.). The reason they are PROTESTant is because they think something is wrong — the majority of them are not just (Ain’t believin’ you said that dude! :doh2: )

around and acting rebellious because they think throwing rocks at authority is cool. They may be wrong, but they aren’t flippant.Yeah, I know. Sometimes I feel like I’ve encountered most of them.

However, the fact remains, as the Protestant fellow above your post pointed out, that a great many haven’t a clue what the real issues are, nor have they ever actually sat down and checked to see if what they have been taught about the Catholic faith is accurate, so they come away with things that are pretty flabbergasting to the average Catholic, even if he does know his faith well.

That said, there are lots of evangelicals and other Christians outside the fold who are ignorant and hold some wacky views, all the while believing they were passed down by Jesus himself because that is what they as an individual believe…of course, there are Catholics who have the same problem.

Indeed! Stuff like Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, the Rapture, symbolic communion and baptism, and a host of other things that depend on who you run into.

And of course, you are right about some Catholics, but hey, everyone’s on a learning curve of some kind.

And?..I can send you to several Catholics I know who don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to Catholicism.

But that isn’t really relevant to the truths of the faith any more than similarly ignorant or willful n-Cs are to theirs. Heck…it has taken me several years to just get where I am now, and I’m still learning. “This is never ending” as the Japanese say about martial arts training.

You do realize that there were a number of big time Protestant leaders other than Luther, right? He may have been the breaking point, but — unlike what popular history will tell you — he was not the first, and he was not the final word over the next two hundred years.

Certainly, there are other “Pillars of the Reformation”. like Calvin, Zwingli, and others, and there are also those Catholics who were moral reformers long prior to Luther, like St. Francis of Assisi, yet they didn’t bail from the Church or create new winds of doctrines.

(I could also point out that the church had already been broken by schism when the Filloque broke the proverbial camel’s back. The Protestant rebellion just splintered the church more, sadly.)

Yep, but that may be healed soon if God is willing.

But to answer your question, what caused the Protestant schism, as much as if not more than Luther’s theology, was geopolitics. Local leaders took an issue of theology and found a way to exploit it to their political advantage. It may have been good for their fiefdoms, but it left the church marred.

Right!

Frankly, it’s often Catholics who give me more pause about taking the step from attending Mass to coming into full communion with the Church.

Get your eyes off the people and onto the Lord where they belong. Like a preacher I knew once said, “If you ever find a perfect church, for God’s sake don’t join it! You’ll ruin it yourself.” (Guy was a nut, but I liked him.)

I know there are people who are messed up in the church, but I have to focus on my life in Christ in the hopes that they will see and hear my example and hear that same call that I have. If I can encourage them along the way then I pray for the grace to do it the way Our Lord wants me to.

Your attitude is unhelpful and, as someone else pointed out, a good Protestant apologist could take you out to the woodshed.

But I don’t think this comment helps much either. What good does it do? I know…I know…Coleraine ain’t exactly subtle, but unless I miss my guess he’s also pretty young, so I’d cut him a little slack because his heart’s in the right place.

I don’t think any n-C/a-C apologist will be taking any of the folks who hang out here at CAF consistently to the woodshed. We’re all learning our most holy faith and growing in it. Hopefully, you’ll stick around and will join us soon.

P.S. My name is Michael, not Paul, so just stay away from me with that sash there Agabus.

 

[moondweller]

Hi

I just don’t get it at all. I mean, come on, there was not even a protestant church until Luther, and that was only 500 years ago. Protestantism has been around for a 1/4 of what Catholicism has, and yet protestants act as though their religion has been around for such a long time. Many talk bad about Catholics for no reason, and never have any idea what they are talking about. Besides Luther, what caused all this? How do people get convinced so easily that somehow the church that was the one and only church for so long was all of a sudden wrong, just because a man said so? Im sorry if i have offended any protestants, but if this is the case…just ask yourself if it makes one bit of sense.

Well, you’d understand if you’d take the time to inform yourself of the theological issues that brought it all about.

 

[Wirraway]

yes, most who come here to attack us are trolls. my objective is to somehow crack the lead bubble around their mind, which has been filled with the same old quotes from their pastors. And i think the only way to do that is if everyone plays a part in the threads, providing evidence and reason. thanks for understanding.

I spent way too much time reading the trolling and I’ve changed my mind. you’re 100% right.

 

[Church_Militant]

Well, you’d understand if you’d take the time to inform yourself of the theological

issues that brought it all about.And you’d be Catholic already if you were really studying the New Testament and verifiable historical writings of the early Christians, which would properly inform your theology and guide you to the truth instead of the errant new winds of doctrine that began to blow some 500 years ago.

 

[Agabus]

I know there are people who are messed up in the church, but I have to focus on my life in Christ in the hopes that they will see and hear my example and hear that same call that I have. If I can encourage them along the way then I pray for the grace to do it the way Our Lord wants me to.But I don’t think this comment helps much either. What good does it do? I know…I know…Coleraine ain’t exactly subtle, but unless I miss my guess he’s also pretty young, so I’d cut him a little slack because his heart’s in the right place.

I thought about it a bit last night, and I realized that the poster was probably a little on the young side. As a user of internet forums for a good 10 years now, I should have detected it. I apologize for my lack of grace and my filthy mouth spilling over onto the page.

For the last couple of months, and the last couple of weeks in particular, I have been going back and forth from almost certainty that I will seek full communion with the Church to almost full doubt, and then back. Etc.

But my wife is not likely to make the leap, for reasons I can understand even if I disagree. So when people talk about Protestants like they’re dummies — especially as one who was once steeped in Protestant apologetics — I may bristle. It’s a pavlovian response.

I’m a work in progress. I’ll try to keep in mind that we all are.

P.S. My name is Michael, not Paul, so just stay away from me with that sash there Agabus.

Don’t worry. If I have a prophecy for you, I won’t take off your belt to deliver it.

 

[Church_Militant]

I’m a work in progress. I’ll try to keep in mind that we all are.

Me too my friend.

Don’t worry. If I have a prophecy for you, I won’t take off your belt to deliver it.

Hopefully, and prophecies will be to both our benefit.

 

[JW55]

Speaking as an ex-Protestant I’ll give you my understanding of my family’s protestantism, in no particular order:

1. It’s easier. Make a one-time profession of faith and Bam! you’re saved.
2. It’s easier to ‘prove’ by simple, out-of-context, memorized one-liner Bible verses.
3. All of our extended families were Protestant. It’s part of the culture.
4. We, like most people, had only a vague idea of Church history. We knew we were right, so why bother learning history?
5. Simple prejudice. Catholics were different, 'nuff said.
6. The theology was simple. Let’s face it, understanding and doing justice to Catholic theology needs Scripture and an 800 page catechism.

I could go on, but you get the idea. Prejudice against different cultures, ignorance of history, not going deep into scripture, and laziness to pursue the truth were hallmarks my family’s faith.

All these reasons might give you a clue as to why all the Protestants here on this forum aren’t persuaded by our arguments
vindicating the Catholic faith—their faith is not rational, it’s based on an emotional experiernce/response to God. Think of all those Bible-thumping, heart-stirring sermons where not a dry-eye’s left in the house. That’s their faith—and overcoming emotional experiences with arguments rarely work.

Excellent summary. I think you made a lot of good points. One step and your saved. You never have to look back. You can take one verse and make a religion out of it.

However, I also think to a degree with both Catholics and Protestants, that those who grow up in a particualr faith if everything goes well you tend to question things less. You don’t want to rock the boat, make family members mad, you go to the same church you have always gone to. Not necessarily because that is what you believe, but you never take the initiative to question. I think most converts whether it be from Protestant to Catholic, Buddhist to Hindu, Orthodox to Protestant or whatever typically make the most enthusiastic evangelicals for their new faith. The reason being is that they have had to ask the tough questions and figure out what they really believe. When you do that and become convinced you are enthusiastic and you want others to share what you have experienced. You have that feeling that you know the answer down to your soul. You are no longer going through the motions.

 

[coleraine]

Well, you’d understand if you’d take the time to inform yourself of the theological issues that brought it all about.

the “issues” could have been worked out. but instead of doing that, Luther broke away, going only on what he thought was correct. He removed bible books, just because they did not agree with his theology. So the “issues” could have been worked out over time, but instead of continuing to work with leaders, Luther went on a rampage pretty much, and ripped everything that he used to hold dear, which many had for 1500 years. to bits. how was that good? how was that justified? all he did was start a chain reaction! now, the world is divided. and let us not forget that the church is protected from making a truly false teaching. which is where infallibility comes in. Luther was a priest, who is supposed to tend to his flock with care, but instead he opens gate and lets his flock roam.

 

[moondweller]

the “issues” could have been worked out. but instead of doing that, Luther broke away, going only on what he thought was correct. He removed bible books, just because they did not agree with his theology. So the “issues” could have been worked out over time, but instead of continuing to work with leaders, Luther went on a rampage pretty much, and ripped everything that he used to hold dear, which many had for 1500 years. to bits. how was that good? how was that justified? all he did was start a chain reaction! now, the world is divided. and let us not forget that the church is protected from making a truly false teaching. which is where infallibility comes in. Luther was a priest, who is supposed to tend to his flock with care, but instead he opens gate and lets his flock roam.

You’re just spewing out a lot of rhetoric. Besides maybe the Catholic Encyclopedia on Luther, have you ever read any real history books that cover that period of history? Or the lives and issues of pre-Reformation men like Wycliffe or Huss and what happened to them? You say it all could have worked out. Read the history and THEN you’ll know better as to why it didn’t. It’s always best to be well informed rather than just parrot prejudice statements.

 

[coleraine]

You’re just spewing out a lot of rhetoric. Besides maybe the Catholic Encyclopedia on Luther, have you ever read any real history books that cover that period of history? Or the lives and issues of pre-Reformation men like Wycliffe or Huss and what happened to them? You say it all could have worked out. Read the history and THEN you’ll know better as to why it didn’t. It’s always best to be well informed rather than just parrot prejudice statements.

dont think you can fool me, i have studied the history. It was all about luther not being able to find peace. he was scrupulous. he saw church teachings that he couldnt follow, because according to them, he was in mortal sin. then he saw that books of the bible agreed to catholicism, so what does he do? he removes them. he was a nut. and if you know SO much about this, why not give me a link?

 

[moen]

With all due respect…as a raised Lutheran/almost Catholic…please all of you…your pride in your doctrine sounds like ITS what you’re standing on, just what will keep people away from your faith. Please use humility and love to draw. I remember years ago wanting to become Catholic, and I was surrounded by prideful Catholics who were doing just what you’re saying Protestants are doing. We’re all human beings, no matter what. The Bible says to defend your faith with respect and humility. When Bible bashers are meant, it’s bad—but I guess when Catholics do it, it’s OK This attitude of having right doctrine and no love is what got the Pharisees scolded by Jesus over and over.
Hit a nerve about Luther (being raised it)---------please do some study. You’ll find he had lots of flaws, but he (as RNRobert said) that he was living his life as a monk under a cloak of rules and regs, trying to be perfect. He read Romans about how we CAN"T live up to God’s expectations for our salvation HENCE Jesus came to pay the debt…the gospel, the good news! He was excommunicated by the church, where at the time was selling indulgences to get money to build a church for a pope that maybe was not an exemplery one in motives Yet now, we live for and through Him, allowing His spirit to work in us to change our hearts…it’s about our hearts, which leads to change in actions. I could go on and on (because I can’t sleep)----but please open your hearts to all people, praying for humility, lifting Jesus up and THAT’s what will draw people to Him. make sense? If the majority of the Catholic church believes differently, (which I think the CCC says that we can’t earn our salvation anyway), maybe I should rethink my plans…I know I CAN’T BE PERFECT, but want Micah 6:8 “Act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly before God.”

 

[coleraine]

With all due respect…as a raised Lutheran/almost Catholic…please all of you…your pride in your doctrine sounds like ITS what you’re standing on, just what will keep people away from your faith. Please use humility and love to draw. I remember years ago wanting to become Catholic, and I was surrounded by prideful Catholics who were doing just what you’re saying Protestants are doing. We’re all human beings, no matter what. The Bible says to defend your faith with respect and humility. When Bible bashers are meant, it’s bad—but I guess when Catholics do it, it’s OK This attitude of having right doctrine and no love is what got the Pharisees scolded by Jesus over and over.
Hit a nerve about Luther (being raised it)---------please do some study. You’ll find he had lots of flaws, but he (as RNRobert said) that he was living his life as a monk under a cloak of rules and regs, trying to be perfect. He read Romans about how we CAN"T live up to God’s expectations for our salvation HENCE Jesus came to pay the debt…the gospel, the good news! He was excommunicated by the church, where at the time was selling indulgences to get money to build a church for a pope that maybe was not an exemplery one in motives Yet now, we live for and through Him, allowing His spirit to work in us to change our hearts…it’s about our hearts, which leads to change in actions. I could go on and on (because I can’t sleep)----but please open your hearts to all people, praying for humility, lifting Jesus up and THAT’s what will draw people to Him. make sense? If the majority of the Catholic church believes differently, (which I think the CCC says that we can’t earn our salvation anyway), maybe I should rethink my plans…I know I CAN’T BE PERFECT, but want Micah 6:8 “Act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly before God.”

see, our doctrine is true. we stand on christ. we stand on the church. and we stand on its doctrines. then there are those who would say that we are wrong, just because their pastor told the so. They are heretics, that doesnt sound nice but its true. if they come here to learn, then thats just great. but if someone comes here to attack us, im not going soft on them, im charging in with historical and documented evidence.

 

[pismopal]

So show me !

Listen up…I have daughters (non Catholic) who have been married after divorces. They were married by non Catholic clergy. You cannot be serious about your disbelief…this happens very often but if you think I am going to personally document for you think again. Some non Catholic clergy will not remarry divorced people but they are not the majority and even if they were the event is very very common.

 

[moen]

Wirraway and Agabus--------I am laughing out loud at your wit and dry humor–and it’s 1am my time!
Why is it that people are saying Luther “broke away”------he was excommunicated. Just a small detail here.