Protestants

[MaryT777]

Where are you getting your facts from? Protestant churches do bear much good fruit, and have done so throughout history. Amazingly strong Christians such as C.S. Lewis, John Wesley, John Newton, William Wilberforce, Billy Graham, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and the many Protestants who are marytred around the world for their faith show that there is much good fruit being borne (along with, sadly, their martyred Catholic brothers and sisters). Again, a bad tree cannot bear such good fruit.

That is not to say that there were not bad people who claimed to be Protestant Christians. Same thing with the Catholic Church. I admire and respect the CC very highly, but in my studies of medieval history, there have been bad people who claimed to be Catholic Christians. You cannot claim that there have been no bad people who claimed to be Catholic. And there have been many, many saints from the CC as well…true Christians which prove that the CC is also a good tree. Yes, everything about the CC is good…but because there are sinful people involved, some bad things did happen.

I think both Catholics and Protestants have much to learn from each other. No Christian church is ever "bad’, just sometimes the people involved make mistakes. There’s no denying that it happened on both sides.

Well stated. I love reading CS Lewis.
Mary.

 

[cheezey]

Bottom line. Even The Church teaches Non Catholics can be saved. Our Lord is merciful.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

But even non-Catholics, if they are saved, are saved through the Church, not through their heresies or paganism.

EENS: extra ecclesiam nulla salus

 

[JackieMom]

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this point

Probably so. If you agreed with me, you’d be a Catholic.

 

[cheezey]

Protestantism is a heresy which denies the sacraments of the Eucharist and Reconciliation. Reconciliation puts one in a state of grace. The Eucharist helps keep you in a state of grace. If one dies with unconfessed mortal sin on his soul, he cannot enter the Beatific Vision. It is very very difficult to enter the Beatific Vision without the Eucharist and Reconciliation. If you don’t eat God’s real flesh, you have no Life in you.

but He made us…

 

[cheezey]

But even non-Catholics, if they are saved, are saved through the Church, not through their heresies or paganism.

EENS: extra ecclesiam nulla salus

I always thought we as Christians were saved through God, and His Son and His medium is the Church…

 

[Soren_Itenu]

By God, through the Church.

 

[JackieMom]

but He made us…

He did make us. He also left His church on Earth to help us achieve salvation through our faith and works. He left us the sacraments to give us the graces to lead holy lives. He left His own body so that we may have life in us.

We are free to accept this, or reject it. Protestants and non-Catholics reject Christ’s Church. It is up to God to determine their culpability in the matter. Some, by their “invincible ignorance” or their lack of access to the Church may be saved by God’s mercy alone.

 

[Cat]

He did make us. He also left His church on Earth to help us achieve salvation through our faith and works. He left us the sacraments to give us the graces to lead holy lives. He left His own body so that we may have life in us.

We are free to accept this, or reject it. Protestants and non-Catholics reject Christ’s Church. It is up to God to determine their culpability in the matter. Some, by their “invincible ignorance” or their lack of access to the Church may be saved by God’s mercy alone.

I do not believe that God will hold Protestants responsible for rejecting the Catholic Church if they have never been exposed to any correct teaching about the Catholic Church.

When I was Protestant, I had no idea what the Catholic Church taught. I had a vague idea that the Catholics taught works along with faith, but basically, I believed that they were real Christians who simply added a lot of stuff to Christianity. I had no idea that it was the other way around: that Protestants had taken away a lot of stuff.

A lot of Catholics seem to doubt “invincible ignorance.” But it’s very real.

Try this–let’s say that your boss at work began discussing synchronized skating with you. Do you know anything about synchronized skating? Have you ever even heard of it?

Probably not, if you are like most Americans. If you’ve read CAF and followed Cat’s posts (me!), you might at least have heard of it, and you might know that it is a sport.

But if you haven’t read CAF, you probably know NOTHING about synchronized skating.

And that’s OK, as long as your boss doesn’t hold you accountable for knowing about it, and doesn’t condemn you for your ignorance.

And unless your boss requires it, you will probably not feel any pressing need to go out and learn about synchronized skating. You are probably quite happy in your life without knowing anything about synchronized skating.

I hope this illustration is helpful to Catholics, because THAT’s how it is with a lot of non-Catholics–they know absolutely NOTHING about the Catholic Church, and they really don’t see any need to learn anything, since they think that they have everything they need to be Christians in their own church (or non-church–there are non-Catholics who do not believe in any kind of organized church).

And that’s why I don’t believe God condemns non-Catholics to hell for “rejecting the Catholic Church.” How can they reject what they know nothing about?

It is my opinion that those of us who are Catholic are in graver danger of going to hell than our Protestant friends when we DON’T bother to evangelize our Protestant friends and relatives about the Catholic Church. Our evangelism could be words or it could be actions–I personally think that eventually, we have to use words because that is how people understand what the Catholic Church teaches. But to sit back and do nothing–this is not going to bring non-Catholics into the Catholic Church.

 

[JackieMom]

but He made us…

I do not believe that God will hold Protestants responsible for rejecting the Catholic Church if they have never been exposed to any correct teaching about the Catholic Church.

When I was Protestant, I had no idea what the Catholic Church taught. I had a vague idea that the Catholics taught works along with faith, but basically, I believed that they were real Christians who simply added a lot of stuff to Christianity. I had no idea that it was the other way around: that Protestants had taken away a lot of stuff.

A lot of Catholics seem to doubt “invincible ignorance.” But it’s very real.

Try this–let’s say that your boss at work began discussing synchronized skating with you. Do you know anything about synchronized skating? Have you ever even heard of it?

Probably not, if you are like most Americans. If you’ve read CAF and followed Cat’s posts (me!), you might at least have heard of it, and you might know that it is a sport.

But if you haven’t read CAF, you probably know NOTHING about synchronized skating.

And that’s OK, as long as your boss doesn’t hold you accountable for knowing about it, and doesn’t condemn you for your ignorance.

And unless your boss requires it, you will probably not feel any pressing need to go out and learn about synchronized skating. You are probably quite happy in your life without knowing anything about synchronized skating.

I hope this illustration is helpful to Catholics, because THAT’s how it is with a lot of non-Catholics–they know absolutely NOTHING about the Catholic Church, and they really don’t see any need to learn anything, since they think that they have everything they need to be Christians in their own church (or non-church–there are non-Catholics who do not believe in any kind of organized church).

And that’s why I don’t believe God condemns non-Catholics to hell for “rejecting the Catholic Church.” How can they reject what they know nothing about?

It is my opinion that those of us who are Catholic are in graver danger of going to hell than our Protestant friends when we DON’T bother to evangelize our Protestant friends and relatives about the Catholic Church. Our evangelism could be words or it could be actions–I personally think that eventually, we have to use words because that is how people understand what the Catholic Church teaches. But to sit back and do nothing–this is not going to bring non-Catholics into the Catholic Church.

I agree that people’s invincible ignorance is a factor. Our Church says it is! But we are all called to seek God. We are supposed to learn and discover His will to the best of our abilities (unlike a sport which we can take or leave.). In many areas, there is a Catholic Church every couple of miles, the internet is available, and most people know many Catholics. It’s not as easy as “I’m not going to bother seeeking because I don’t want my life to change.” The information, for many, is easily accessible and of much greater importance than skating.

No one knows where anyone ends up for eternity. I believe in God’s mercy, but I fear for those who have the chance to know the True Faith and reject it.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Willful ignorance is not the same as invincible ignorance.

 

[Agape_et_Shalom]

Becoming Catholic is a life long project. If anything can be taken from our Communion of Saints it is humility. Unfortunately we sometimes have to work and pray more for that gift. Please, any protestant brothers or sisters reading here we are all still practicing. We deeply love our Lord Jesus Christ and we have been blessed.

C.S Lewis was a part of God’s plan as we all are and I thank Him for Lewis’ modesty and ingenuity. He truly understood the early fathers and quoted them frequently. Even though I’m deeply convicted Catholic my family and I owe much to C.S Lewis. He brought me out of a long spiritual conundrum. A favorite author.

The Reformation was also part of God’s plan.

Scott Hahn I think put it best. Protestants get to read the menu, but Catholics enjoy the feast. I pray all fallen away christians find their way home. None of us should be casting stones.

 

[cheezey]

… Protestants and non-Catholics reject Christ’s Church. It is up to God to determine their culpability in the matter. Some, by their “invincible ignorance” or their lack of access to the Church may be saved by God’s mercy alone.

I am still a Protestant, who, even while in RCIA, does not, nor have I ever, rejected the Catholic Church. Are you perhaps referring to those who vehemently do so? If not, then again, a blanket statement.

I do not believe that God will hold Protestants responsible for rejecting the Catholic Church if they have never been exposed to any correct teaching about the Catholic Church.

When I was Protestant, I had no idea what the Catholic Church taught. I had a vague idea that the Catholics taught works along with faith, but basically, **I believed that they were real Christians **who simply added a lot of stuff to Christianity. I had no idea that it was the other way around: that Protestants had taken away a lot of stuff.

A lot of Catholics seem to doubt “invincible ignorance.” But it’s very real.

Try this–let’s say that your boss at work began discussing synchronized skating with you. Do you know anything about synchronized skating? Have you ever even heard of it?

Probably not, if you are like most Americans. If you’ve read CAF and followed Cat’s posts (me!), you might at least have heard of it, and you might know that it is a sport.

But if you haven’t read CAF, you probably know NOTHING about synchronized skating.

**And that’s OK, as long as your boss doesn’t hold you accountable for knowing about it, and doesn’t condemn you for your ignorance.
**
**How can they reject what they know nothing about? **

…It is my opinion that those of us who are Catholic are in graver danger of going to hell than our Protestant friends when we DON’T bother to evangelize our Protestant friends and relatives about the Catholic Church. Our evangelism could be words or it could be actions–I personally think that eventually, we have to use words because that is how people understand what the Catholic Church teaches. But to sit back and do nothing–this is not going to bring non-Catholics into the Catholic Church.

I agree that people’s invincible ignorance is a factor. Our Church says it is! But we are all called to seek God. We are supposed to learn and discover His will to the best of our abilities (unlike a sport which we can take or leave.). In many areas, there is a Catholic Church every couple of miles, the internet is available, and most people know many Catholics. It’s not as easy as “I’m not going to bother seeeking because I don’t want my life to change.” The information, for many, is easily accessible and of much greater importance than skating.

No one knows where anyone ends up for eternity. I believe in God’s mercy, but I fear for those who have the chance to know the True Faith and reject it.

Not every non Catholic is actively rejecting it; as stated above, one cannot reject that which one does not know.

Becoming Catholic is a life long project.

What an understatement!! And a good one!! And at the rate I am going, I might be one in thirty years!!!

If anything can be taken from our Communion of Saints it is humility. Unfortunately we sometimes have to work and pray more for that gift. Please, any protestant brothers or sisters reading here we are all still practicing. We deeply love our Lord Jesus Christ and we have been blessed.

C.S Lewis was a part of God’s plan as we all are and I thank Him for Lewis’ modesty and ingenuity. He truly understood the early fathers and quoted them frequently. Even though I’m deeply convicted Catholic my family and I owe much to C.S Lewis. He brought me out of a long spiritual conundrum. A favorite author.

The Reformation was also part of God’s plan.

Scott Hahn I think put it best. Protestants get to read the menu, but Catholics enjoy the feast. I pray all fallen away christians find their way home. None of us should be casting stones.

And I pray for all who have never known will find their way home, as well…

 

[UnumCorpus]

See there lies the problem. I am grateful that Lewis “lead many to Christ” but you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. In this case eat: the eucharist. That is his biggest flaw and what we are getting at with Lewis’s flaw. He may have brought people to Christ, but “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you.”

I do not want to get into a debate on transubstantiation. I just want to say that C.S. Lewis neither endorsed nor refuted that doctrine. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong on this point, but I have read quite a few of his books and there is little mention of his views on the Eucharist. I don’t see how his works could lead someone to disbelieve in transubstantiation.

 

[UnumCorpus]

I love reading CS Lewis.

You and me both.

 

[Cat]

I agree that people’s invincible ignorance is a factor. Our Church says it is! But we are all called to seek God. We are supposed to learn and discover His will to the best of our abilities (unlike a sport which we can take or leave.). In many areas, there is a Catholic Church every couple of miles, the internet is available, and most people know many Catholics. It’s not as easy as “I’m not going to bother seeeking because I don’t want my life to change.” The information, for many, is easily accessible and of much greater importance than skating.

No one knows where anyone ends up for eternity. I believe in God’s mercy, but I fear for those who have the chance to know the True Faith and reject it.

There are all kinds of churches every couple of miles. Should I feel compelled to stop and visit, or to look up their denominations on the internet, or seek out people from those churches and get to know them? Do YOU do this? Why not? I assume your answer would be because you feel that you have everything in the Catholic Church, so there is no need to study all the Protestant denominations.

You don’t get it, JackieMom. Christians who are not Catholic have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA that the Catholic Church claims to be the Church that Jesus Christ founded. They have little to no knowledge of church history. They have been taught all of their lives, from infanthood (yes, there are Sunday school classes for 2 years olds in many Protestant churches) a version of church history that does not elevate the Catholic Church.

There is absolutely no reason for most Protestants to question what they have been taught all of their lives, because for the most part, they are happy, contented Christians who dearly love Jesus and love serving Him in some ministry in their church.

They have complete trust in their pastors and teachers because they have spent many hours with these people and know that they are good, decent people who do not practice sin and do not live a double life (good on the outside, evil on the inside). A lot of Catholics make claims that Protestants look good on the outside, but once they get home, they’re involved with all kinds of sins, including drinking alcohol. I agree that most Protestant men (and Catholic men, too) are involved with pornography. But I know with certainty that most Protestants go home and they are exactly who are in church–good, decent, moral, loving, kind, generous, temperate, and HONEST people.

Many many Protestants who walk away from their wonderful churches and all their friends and family do so because…something bad happens in their church.

In my case, it was because our family was thrown out of our Protestant church due to the trumped-up charges of a delusional woman pastor who was jealous of the success that I had in my children’s ministries. (A year after we were ousted, the woman pastor was caught in a lie involving money in the church, and she was fired. Turns out she had a history of this kind of thing.)

After we were thrown out, I stopped trusting my Protestant teachers and all that they had taught me. That lack of trust is what compelled me to look into Catholicism–I believed in Jesus and the Bible (kind of, but no longer in sola Scriptura), and I knew that Christianity was truth thanks to books by men like C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity, etc.). But I no longer trusted my church or any church.

The ousting “broke the spell,” so to speak, and allowed me to actually get interested in churches that were not Protestant. Up until I was cruelly treated by my pastors, I had absolutely no reason whatsoever to go outside of my Protestant church and search for anything else. I thought everything was perfect where I was., just as YOU do, JackieMom.

Of course what this means is that I still have a lot of trust issues, and I have a hard time trusting even the dear priests and bishops, let alone the Catholic laypeople (including those on CAF). In a way, it’s good–the only Person I completely trust is Jesus. So this makes me a very flawed Catholic Christian.

 

[JackieMom]

There are all kinds of churches every couple of miles. Should I feel compelled to stop and visit, or to look up their denominations on the internet, or seek out people from those churches and get to know them? Do YOU do this? Why not? I assume your answer would be because you feel that you have everything in the Catholic Church, so there is no need to study all the Protestant denominations.

You don’t get it, JackieMom. Christians who are not Catholic have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA that the Catholic Church claims to be the Church that Jesus Christ founded. They have little to no knowledge of church history. They have been taught all of their lives, from infanthood (yes, there are Sunday school classes for 2 years olds in many Protestant churches) a version of church history that does not elevate the Catholic Church.

There is absolutely no reason for most Protestants to question what they have been taught all of their lives, because for the most part, they are happy, contented Christians who dearly love Jesus and love serving Him in some ministry in their church.

They have complete trust in their pastors and teachers because they have spent many hours with these people and know that they are good, decent people who do not practice sin and do not live a double life (good on the outside, evil on the inside). A lot of Catholics make claims that Protestants look good on the outside, but once they get home, they’re involved with all kinds of sins, including drinking alcohol. I agree that most Protestant men (and Catholic men, too) are involved with pornography. But I know with certainty that most Protestants go home and they are exactly who are in church–good, decent, moral, loving, kind, generous, temperate, and HONEST people.

Many many Protestants who walk away from their wonderful churches and all their friends and family do so because…something bad happens in their church.

In my case, it was because our family was thrown out of our Protestant church due to the trumped-up charges of a delusional woman pastor who was jealous of the success that I had in my children’s ministries. (A year after we were ousted, the woman pastor was caught in a lie involving money in the church, and she was fired. Turns out she had a history of this kind of thing.)

After we were thrown out, I stopped trusting my Protestant teachers and all that they had taught me. That lack of trust is what compelled me to look into Catholicism–I believed in Jesus and the Bible (kind of, but no longer in sola Scriptura), and I knew that Christianity was truth thanks to books by men like C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity, etc.). But I no longer trusted my church or any church.

The ousting “broke the spell,” so to speak, and allowed me to actually get interested in churches that were not Protestant. Up until I was cruelly treated by my pastors, I had absolutely no reason whatsoever to go outside of my Protestant church and search for anything else. I thought everything was perfect where I was., just as YOU do, JackieMom.

Of course what this means is that I still have a lot of trust issues, and I have a hard time trusting even the dear priests and bishops, let alone the Catholic laypeople (including those on CAF). In a way, it’s good–the only Person I completely trust is Jesus. So this makes me a very flawed Catholic Christian.

I’m sorry you were treated that way. How terrible. How can someone be thrown out of a church?

As to have I studied and thoughtfulky considered Protestantism - of course I have. Haven’t most people? At one point I somewhat seriously considered it because I was succumbing to a desire for a religion that had lower expectations. My father is actually a non-practicing Protestant.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

There are all kinds of churches every couple of miles. Should I feel compelled to stop and visit, or to look up their denominations on the internet, or seek out people from those churches and get to know them? Do YOU do this? Why not? I assume your answer would be because you feel that you have everything in the Catholic Church, so there is no need to study all the Protestant denominations.

You don’t get it, JackieMom. Christians who are not Catholic have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA that the Catholic Church claims to be the Church that Jesus Christ founded. They have little to no knowledge of church history. They have been taught all of their lives, from infanthood (yes, there are Sunday school classes for 2 years olds in many Protestant churches) a version of church history that does not elevate the Catholic Church.

There is absolutely no reason for most Protestants to question what they have been taught all of their lives, because for the most part, they are happy, contented Christians who dearly love Jesus and love serving Him in some ministry in their church.

They have complete trust in their pastors and teachers because they have spent many hours with these people and know that they are good, decent people who do not practice sin and do not live a double life (good on the outside, evil on the inside). A lot of Catholics make claims that Protestants look good on the outside, but once they get home, they’re involved with all kinds of sins, including drinking alcohol. I agree that most Protestant men (and Catholic men, too) are involved with pornography. But I know with certainty that most Protestants go home and they are exactly who are in church–good, decent, moral, loving, kind, generous, temperate, and HONEST people.

Many many Protestants who walk away from their wonderful churches and all their friends and family do so because…something bad happens in their church.

In my case, it was because our family was thrown out of our Protestant church due to the trumped-up charges of a delusional woman pastor who was jealous of the success that I had in my children’s ministries. (A year after we were ousted, the woman pastor was caught in a lie involving money in the church, and she was fired. Turns out she had a history of this kind of thing.)

After we were thrown out, I stopped trusting my Protestant teachers and all that they had taught me. That lack of trust is what compelled me to look into Catholicism–I believed in Jesus and the Bible (kind of, but no longer in sola Scriptura), and I knew that Christianity was truth thanks to books by men like C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity, etc.). But I no longer trusted my church or any church.

The ousting “broke the spell,” so to speak, and allowed me to actually get interested in churches that were not Protestant. Up until I was cruelly treated by my pastors, I had absolutely no reason whatsoever to go outside of my Protestant church and search for anything else. I thought everything was perfect where I was., just as YOU do, JackieMom.

Of course what this means is that I still have a lot of trust issues, and I have a hard time trusting even the dear priests and bishops, let alone the Catholic laypeople (including those on CAF). In a way, it’s good–the only Person I completely trust is Jesus. So this makes me a very flawed Catholic Christian.

That was so well put! This is exactly the way I see it too as someone who came to The Church from a protestant family. I think maybe this is hard for cradle Catholics to see or even comprehend sometimes. That was awful what it took for you to come to The Church but I bet you are glad it happened now! Once again… So well put!

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

I don’t understand the rivalry either…it’s uncalled for and insane IMO.

From my experience, the Protestants bash the Catholics waaaay more than vice versa, but to say the Protestants are wrong, evil, etc, is hogwash as well.

When it comes to one side bashing the other, I seriously think it’s probably about equal on both sides.

Protestants, especially those loud Pentecostals, are definitely sometimes guilty of saying severely hurtful things about Catholics. They need to recognize that the hurt they are trying to inflict, is going to land on themselves.