Protestants

[JackieMom]

And you don’t see how such a view might be off putting to Protestants who disagree with parts of the Catholic teaching, such as the eternal virginity of the Holy Mother, or whether or not infants should be baptized, just to name a couple of issues that frequently come up…I have seen several threads wondering about “anti-Catholic” sentiment. From my life experience, this sentiment does not arise as much from anger about disagreements of theological conclusions that have been reached, as it does from a Catholic viewpoint that there is no way the Catholic church could possibly be wrong – anyone that disagrees is.

To answer the OP’s question I have a hard time believing God reveals himself completely only to one particular group of people that have the right answers, while everyone that disagrees is “wrong”, not even the Catholic Church. Just can’t get there.

It’s not my personal view or opinion, it’s what our faith teaches. We are the only church that has apostolic succession, the only one with all of the sacraments, and the only Church that teaches the fullness of the truth. There are millions of encyclicals, books etc. explaining exactly why this is the case. It’s not just Catholics standing in the corner with their arms crossed saying “We’re right and you’re wrong!” Of course, to those who have not studied why our faith teaches what it does, it can seem like we’re just being obstinate. The truth is that we are simply uncompromising about the authenticity of our doctrine, and wish for everyone to return to the one true Church so that they can experience the graces that come with full communion with Christ.

 

[Slaney]

As much as I believe the Catholic church is the one true church, I still have a lot of respect for protestants and see them do a lot of good behaviour.

Sometimes when I hear the comments in Catholic settings that knock protestants, I am shocked. I do not understand the rivalry.

ANgie

One of the last accepted prejudices is against the Catholic Church, the media, newspapers and worldwide web attack it every day.

Catholics should arm themselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, now Jesus said things which weren’t always popular.

CARM is full of vile hatred against Catholics, and there are a plethora of others, I have never heard at Mass anything disparaging protestants or other faiths, but a pendulum swings both ways.

Forums like these will see heated debates, but the moderators are usually on the ball, but not IE; CARM with the moderators attacking as-well…

We should defend our faith in Charity…

 

[Anglewannabe]

The Protestants I know come to conclusions that there are different interpretations of the Bible,

With all due respect, that is the main problem I see with protestants. If their are different interpretations, everyone can twist the meaning to their own personal agenda. Jesus only meant for there to be one interpretation. Why would there be more than one?

It comes across as arrogant for one church to claim on their denomination is right about everything.

Perhaps from a secular point of view, but if protestants did not believe their denomination was totally right, what are they doing in it ??? It makes no sense someone would follow a religion they did not believe was 100% right

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

With all due respect, that is the main problem I see with protestants. If their are different interpretations, everyone can twist the meaning to their own personal agenda. Jesus only meant for there to be one interpretation. Why would there be more than one?

Perhaps from a secular point of view, but if protestants did not believe their denomination was totally right, what are they doing in it ??? It makes no sense someone would follow a religion they did not believe was 100% right

Yes the main problem I see with protestantism is all the different biblical interpretations too. That is one of the big reasons I abandoned protestantism. But some do follow a denomination that they dont believe is necissarily 100% right. Some protestants I have talked to just believe that no denomination is 100% right (not even necissarily their own) because humans are flawed. They focus on Christ, not doctrine. As long as you believe in Jesus. and repent, they believe you can be saved whether you are Catholic or protestant. When I was a protestant, I did not even know how many different denominations there was untill maybe 3 years ago. I also diddnt know how many different denominations can look at one verse in the bible and come out with come out with different interpretations of that verse. Heck, some protestants think the early church was just like how protestantism is now. So in short… when I was a protestant I never even thought “is my denomination 100% right?” I just tried to focus on Jesus. Later I learned The Catholic Church had the fullness of truth and I thank God for that.

 

[aloe]

we are all brothers and sisters under one God.:grouphug:

This! There is a lot more we all share than not in Christ.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Protestantism is a heresy which denies the sacraments of the Eucharist and Reconciliation. Reconciliation puts one in a state of grace. The Eucharist helps keep you in a state of grace. If one dies with unconfessed mortal sin on his soul, he cannot enter the Beatific Vision. It is very very difficult to enter the Beatific Vision without the Eucharist and Reconciliation. If you don’t eat God’s real flesh, you have no Life in you.

 

[paulrxp]

Alright, now I am confused. I was not talking about Jehovah’s Witnesses. JWs are not Trinitarian, their Watchtower translation of the Bible is highly inaccurate and they are a cult. I do not consider them Christian. So I agree about your sentiments regarding the JW religion.

However as I said before, the Catholic Church views Protestantism as the same religion. We are all viewed as Christians, followers of Christ. When I say Protestants, I am talking about Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Pentecostals, evangelicals Methodists etc. JWs are not Protestants…when we are talking about “Protestants” I assume we are talking about Trinitarian Christians.

Ya I dunno if the Trinitarian aspect changes a Catholics view. Outside of the Church, we’ve always perceived other Christians and various denominations as Protestant. The Eastern Orthodox may be the exception. I’ll let the experts answer that one. Still history and origin matter a great deal to Catholics, so it isn’t overlooked whether the detail is less as with our Anglican friends, or more as with the JW.

Some of my SDA friends brought up the JW last week, they denounced them and distanced themselves from anything JW. Now while they certainly deviated doctrinally from their original beliefs, they share some history and some roots. Now between Christian denominations, they don’t want to be grouped with other denominations, they want some identity and distinction. Catholics will naturally feel that if you’re not in the Church, you’re outside of it in protest. Now I personally feel that if you deny the trinity you’re not Christian, I told that to some JW that visited me one day, of course politely, but I still regard them as protestants. Like many SDA followers they certainly are still protesting against the Church and apparently Christian trinitarians are as well

 

[UnumCorpus]

Hello again!

I’m back

Ya I dunno if the Trinitarian aspect changes a Catholics view. Outside of the Church, we’ve always perceived other Christians and various denominations as Protestant.

As Cat made in an excellent earlier post, Christian Protestants believe in the following essential doctrines:

1. The Deity of Jesus Christ
2. The Virgin Birth
3. The Blood Atonement
4. The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ
5. The Inerrancy of the Scriptures

JWs do not believe in all of these five, which are very fundamental to the Christian faith. As I mentioned before, they believe that Christ is created by God and therefore is not divine. Thus they cannot possibly be considered Christian. Now while they believe their Scriptures to be inerrant as well, they are also different. I realize that the Catholic Bibles have some more books than Protestant ones, however the JW Scriptures differ in more than just the number of books. The Watchtower translation, as I explained in an earlier post, is a highly inaccurate translation since it changes the translation of the verses which do not support their doctrine (specifically the verses which state or imply Jesus’ divinity). It supports the idea that Christ is created which cannot possibly be reconciled with the Scriptures both Catholics and Protestants have.

That is why the Catholic Church does not strictly agree with your sentiment, paulrxp. Trinitarian Protestants are treated differently than non-Trinitarian groups like the JWs. You can see that in the CC’s teaching on baptisms. A Protestant who has been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is seen as being in imperfect communion with the Catholic Church. So the CC still recognizes that God is present within Protestant churches even if there are some deviances in doctrine.

That is why when a Protestant decides to become Catholic, they do not need to be baptized again if they were already baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If however a Catholic convert was baptized in the Mormon church or into the JW organization, that is not a Trinitarian baptism so they need to be properly baptized in the CC. So the Trinitarian distinction does matter to the Catholic Church based on the requirements regarding baptism. Therefore a JW has no communion with the CC at all.

I suppose the JWs could be considered “Protestant” as it is a form of “protest” against mainstream Christianity, but if so, they are non-Christian and should not be categorized with mainline and evangelical Protestants. Personally, I do not like the term “Protestant” as I really have nothing to protest

And Mary, I did see your post. Thank you for the well wishes

 

[sennincatholic]

well…i have very good protestant friends who have no anti-catholic feelings and believe in the Holy trinity.however i think protestants who have anti-catholic sentiments are those that have a problem.even some trinitarian protestants have consciously chosen to reject catholicism.we should pray for this group of protestants because they willingfully choose to be biased against the church and we shouldnt group them with trinitarian protestants who have no anti-catholic feelings.

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

There are many good people that are unfortunately in false religions. I hope I never talk negatively about a protestant. But, their religion is false and it won’t lead them to Heaven. So, while I respect individual people, I don’t respect the false religion of protestantism.

okay.

 

[UnumCorpus]

It’s more than this. It’s not enough to say we believe in Christ and be nice to other people. We have to take the Eucharist during Mass and we have to go to a Catholic priest for confession. If someone doesn’t do that, then they will be separated from God. The Church teaches that we should not judge someones inner connection to the Church and that God saves whomever He chooses. However the many protestant denominations are not means to salvation: they do not have a valid Eucharist or the sacrament of Confession. They are not good enough. The poor people in them need our help to enter the True Faith to be saved. It’s not enough to be Christian to be saved, you must be Catholic not in a state of mortal sin.

Hello again dominic_aquinas,

First, you are saying that it is “not enough to say we believe in Christ and be nice”. I agree with you. Even the demons believed that Christ was the Son of God. And your use of the word “nice” has a negative connotation which suggests being kind but passive. This is not a description of many of the Protestants I know, and certainly isn’t the case with the Protestant giants of the faith. The names I mentioned in a previous post were that way precisely because of their beliefs, not in spite of them. They fully lived out their faith and faced much criticism and persecution from the world as a result. I won’t go into their life stories here as I do not want to make my post ridiculously long, but I can do so if you would like more information about them. Now these were people who were close to God! At any rate, just as Catholics faced (and still face) much persecution and mockery, Protestants are no different. What is sad is when the mockery comes from badly misinformed Christians.

For example, no one would call C.S. Lewis a passive or spiritually immature believer in Christ…he has been called “the apostle to the skeptics” by secular sources. Please, read his works. They’re profound and have led many people to Christ. After reading some of his works, I think you may gain a respect for at least one Protestant theologian. Lewis wrote a very famous book called “Mere Christianity”, which was a written version of the radio broadcasts he did from 1942-1944. That title was pretty provocative in its day since people at that time were more likely to identify themselves as “Catholic Christians”, “Methodist Christians”, “Anglican Christians” etc rather than just “Christians”. Lewis, interestingly enough, was attacked on all sides as a result of his choice of title. People had begun to identify more with their own denomination/division as opposed to being simply identified by the name given to all believers: “Christian”. So Lewis purposely sought common ground among all Christians and to explain the fundamental teachings of Christianity.

However, I am not saying there are no differences between Catholics and Protestants, but what I am saying is that the differences have been emphasized and misunderstood over the centuries to the detriment of Christianity as a whole. See Matthew 12:24: “Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, ‘Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.’” Christians cannot be good witnesses to the world if we are divided against ourselves.

My post once again was too long so I will have to post the second part. It seems I’m a bit too verbose

 

[UnumCorpus]

One example of a frequently misunderstood issue between Catholics and Protestants is the “faith versus good works”, which is a false dichotomy. I will Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary. I will refer to C.S. Lewis’ arguments on the subject:

“Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary.”

Regarding the doctrines you mentioned though, dominic_aquinas, it is true they have been truly divisive. I’m not going to pretend otherwise. Thus my views on them I know will be met with much disagreement on here so I don’t want to derail the thread by debating on those topics. The doctrines you cited are important, but not essential to the faith. Lewis’ definition of Christianity sums it up quite nicely (also from Mere Christianity):

“We are told that Christ was killed for us, that His death has washed out our sins, and that by dying He has disabled death itself. That is the formula. That is Christianity. That is what has to be believed.”

If what defined Christians as Christians was transubstantiation and the Sacrament of Confession (though Protestants do confess their sins to God as an informal confession), then why does the Catechism say otherwise? Even though those doctrines are largely absent from Protestantism, Protestants are still in “imperfect communion” with the Catholic Church. Thus the differences in those doctrines do not result in Protestantism being placed outside of the realm of Christianity.

Christ is present within Protestant churches as I have stated before, and the CC must think so as well otherwise we would not be considered to be “brothers and sisters in Christ”, nor would Protestant Trinitarian baptisms be considered valid. Once again, though the Catholic Church views Protestantism as being incomplete, by no means is it considered evil.

 

[UnumCorpus]

The Catholic Church teaches that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. This does not preclude the possibility that, through God’s abundant mercy, non-Catholics might still be saved. But their salvation will still be provided through the Catholic Church, not through a Protestant denomination.

The fact that Protestants may only have salvation through God’s abundant mercy is absolutely true. But is that not the case with Catholics as well? All Christians are only given salvation through His mercy.

 

[JackieMom]

The fact that Protestants may only have salvation through God’s abundant mercy is absolutely true. But is that not the case with Catholics as well? All Christians are only given salvation through His mercy.

As Catholics, we have many more graces granted to us, and many more opportunities to reconcile with God.

I look at it this way:

Two aspiring athletes want to make it to the professional league. One has access to a state-of-the-art gym, a nutritionist, a physiotherapist, te best coach money can buy, world class training facilities, a personal physician, and top of the line equipment. The other has a few barbells, a box of protein bars and has only an amateur coach available. Both have equal drive, work ethic and natural talent. Who is more likely to succeed?

Obviously, the one with the resources. This does not totally rule out the success of the one with slim resources, but it makes it much more difficult and unlikely.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

JackieMom, you just nailed it!

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

JackieMom, you just nailed it!

You’re ruling out the God factor.

 

[UnumCorpus]

As Catholics, we have many more graces granted to us, and many more opportunities to reconcile with God.

I look at it this way:

Two aspiring athletes want to make it to the professional league. One has access to a state-of-the-art gym, a nutritionist, a physiotherapist, te best coach money can buy, world class training facilities, a personal physician, and top of the line equipment. The other has a few barbells, a box of protein bars and has only an amateur coach available. Both have equal drive, work ethic and natural talent. Who is more likely to succeed?

Obviously, the one with the resources. This does not totally rule out the success of the one with slim resources, but it makes it much more difficult and unlikely.

Hello JackieMom,

I don’t think your analogy applies so much to salvation, as it sounds like we’re trying to achieve something that’s already been achieved for us. I think it could apply however to our pursuit of holiness and closeness with Christ.

The truth is, though, is that salvation doesn’t need a specific Bible translation, an RCIA program, or even priests with Doctorates in Theology. The early Christians had none of those. I agree that they are good, but they aren’t necessary.

However I understand your concern that without the oversight of the Catholic Church, the quality of a person’s spiritual teaching might be questionable. And admittedly, that’s true for certain independent denominations. It is definitely a risk, especially if there is no higher body which holds priests/pastors accountable for their teachings. I personally do not like independent churches; I prefer ones which are part of a more established denomination and which have a governing hierarchy or board. Accountability is important.

 

[UnumCorpus]

But let’s look at it another way. Look at Matthew 7:16-20: “By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”

There is an extensive list of good, even great, Christian Protestants, just as there is with Catholics. Much good work is done, and there are much good fruit has come from Protestant churches. So this could not be if all Protestant denominations are bad trees. If there are parts of the practice of the faith in both Protestantism and in the RCC that are favourable, which is the “good tree”? Would it not be both? We all share the same root in Christ so I suppose we’re really different parts of the same tree.

And the parts that are bad are not due to the root, but rather are the parts influenced by mankind.

 

[JackieMom]

But let’s look at it another way. Look at Matthew 7:16-20: “By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”

There is an extensive list of good, even great, Christian Protestants, just as there is with Catholics. Much good work is done, and there are much good fruit has come from Protestant churches. So this could not be if all Protestant denominations are bad trees. If there are parts of the practice of the faith in both Protestantism and in the RCC that are favourable, which is the “good tree”? Would it not be both? We all share the same root in Christ so I suppose we’re really different parts of the same tree.

And the parts that are bad are not due to the root, but rather are the parts influenced by mankind.

They aren’t bad trees. They are lacking. They do not bear much fruit, even if their leaves and branches appear impressive and healthy.

There are not “good parts” of the Catholic church. It is all good. All our doctrine and teachings are good. Our Bible translations are good. Our sacraments are good. Protestantism has some “good parts.” But so many missing pieces and screwy parts, too.

 

[JackieMom]

Hello JackieMom,

I don’t think your analogy applies so much to salvation, as it sounds like we’re trying to achieve something that’s already been achieved for us. I think it could apply however to our pursuit of holiness and closeness with Christ.

The truth is, though, is that salvation doesn’t need a specific Bible translation, an RCIA program, or even priests with Doctorates in Theology. The early Christians had none of those. I agree that they are good, but they aren’t necessary.

However I understand your concern that without the oversight of the Catholic Church, the quality of a person’s spiritual teaching might be questionable. And admittedly, that’s true for certain independent denominations. It is definitely a risk, especially if there is no higher body which holds priests/pastors accountable for their teachings. I personally do not like independent churches; I prefer ones which are part of a more established denomination and which have a governing hierarchy or board. Accountability is important.

Our salvation has not been achieved for us. The possibility of salvation has been achieved. We can embrace all the resources God provided to us (Catholicism) to try to achieve salvation, or we can discard many of His gifts and teachings and hope for the best (Protestantism.) I simply do not understand the view that there can be many truths and many faiths. There is one. Pick correctly!