Protstant dancing between denominations?

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Incidentally, fifty percent of Tiber swimmers return to some form of Protestantism within one year of converting to Catholicism.
And where do you get this number from? Please provide some proof. You can’t just fling statistics around without some kind of proof to back it up.

I’m 2 years in after converting and still going strong. 🙂
It might sound kind of odd to you in your head or if you ever say it out loud, but the Catholic Church is not particularly good at helping Christians become better Christians.
I find this an interesting statement too.

As a Protestant I was only ever being fed ‘baby food’. At the pulpit every Sunday the minister would preach about salvation, salvation, salvation but NEVER, ever mention anything to help me be a better Christian. You’re absolutely right that this is what Protestants are often focused on. We all want to be pretty Christians.

It has been my experience that the Catholic Church is FAR more concerned with helping us be better Christians. The problem is people don’t know HOW to access the resources that the Church has in place to help us improve OR people aren’t making any effort to go it on their own.

I would agree that there is not enough help for new converts. After RCIA they’re pretty much abandoned and left to their own resources and for some people this can be a problem. Seems to me some people just need more hand holding then others. I’m content to learn on my own using the Catechism and the Vatican documents as my guide but others are not so inclined to research on their own.

Because I am in love with the Church I need to stress that the Church has EVERYTHING in place to help us be better Christians. The sacraments are the single most important resource that any Christian needs. Confession keeps me humble and always striving to be better. The Eucharist keeps me on my knees praising Christ. The homilies are usually hard hitting and force me to examine my life and my heart. The Mass forces me to hear Scripture, even when I don’t feel like it.

I think it’s unfortunate you have such a low opinion of the Catholic Church’s ability to help people be better Christians but honestly I have the same low opinion of most Protestant churches so I guess we’re even. 🙂
 
. The issue is this, though- we are looking for the right things, and the average Catholic parish doesn’t do a very good job of providing them.
Let me add my $.02 - I have a good friend who’s Catholic, and he’s a bit shaky in going to Mass. About every month or so, I call him up and pester him about it. Most often, he’s gone recently, but every once in a while I find he’s gone a few months without.

I then ‘invite’ myself over and we go to Mass, and he’s good to go for another few months.

I’m just his friend, and I’m joyful that he lets me pester him and help him, but quite frankly - someone in his parish should be doing this.

We also will be joyfully hosting some Catholic children at our vacation Bible school this summer, only because the local parish doesn’t offer it.

If I have any recommendation, is that Catholics study protestants a bit more. Put us under the microscope and see if there’s anything we are doing that you can emulate - anything that may help in faith formation. I think there is, based on my experience, but I honestly hope I’m wrong and our local parishes are just dropping the ball.
 
As a former Evangelical Protestant, I would like to say that I have never heard the phrase “dancing between denominations” used by Protestants.

The phrase that I have heard all my life from many different Protestants is “church hopping.”

In fact, there is a great song (contemporary) called “Church Hop” by Ray Boltz. Here is a link to the words: lyricstime.com/boltz-ray-church-hop-lyrics.html

I only bring this up because if the OP should happen to use the phrase “dancing between denominations” with a Protestant, that Protestant might look confused. But most Protestants do understand the phrase “church hopping” because it’s what they use in conversation. I think it’s good communication practice to use language that is easily understood.

(I should mention that in recent years, Ray Boltz has “come out” as practicing homosexual, and has stopped doing contemporary Christian music and is living with his partner. I’m not sure if he is still involve in a Christian church.)
 
It’s not about which church is “most exciting.” This is a rather foolish-sounding description that makes it seem like you see us as immature and ill-formed. Let me remind you that Protestants, on average, attend church at a frequency that’s more than 30% ahead of Catholics, there’s less nominalism per capita, and we do take church quite seriously- much more than Catholics do on average, actually.

There is one thing that tends to be at the forefront of our thought process, though, and it might not be what you’ve heard. You might have heard that we’re bouncing around looking for the fullness of truth, but that’s generally not true- it’s a concept Catholic apologists wish that more Protestants had even heard of. We’re usually not leaving a denomination for reasons of doctrinal difference, either. It’s mostly about the praxis and the people, and when we move (which Americans do a lot of), any given Protestant denomination may not be nearly as accessible in a different part of the country. Then we have to make some choices. There’s also a lot of compromises that we’re perfectly willing to make for marriage, and that often means leaving two denominations behind in favor of a third one.

I got a little sidetracked there- I was about to tell you the overarching theme that tends to guide Protestants when they are searching for a new denomination. Which, well over half the time, is precipitated by either a move or a marriage. Generally, the idea is that we want to be a part of the denomination that will do the best job of helping us become better Christians. We’re usually more willing to give ground on doctrinal quibbles than we are on that one point. If it’s a family with young children, their formation obviously takes precedence. And overall, whoever you are, praxis and people are more involved in affecting this one all-important outcome than a certain doctrine is.

If you want to get a Protestant to stick around in a new church home, it is imperative that you do a very good job of helping that Protestant become a better Christian. Incidentally, fifty percent of Tiber swimmers return to some form of Protestantism within one year of converting to Catholicism. There’s not much of a focus on ensuring that new members of a parish are getting what they need in order to become better Christians. It might sound kind of odd to you in your head or if you ever say it out loud, but the Catholic Church is not particularly good at helping Christians become better Christians. This is the single most important issue that governs the Protestant thought process, and unfortunately, it seems to be a concept that many Catholics don’t really grasp. The solution is better mystagogy, but I guess there’s enough Catholic parishes that don’t see it as a high priority. Protestants do, though. We must be in an environment where we can become better Christians. If it’s not like that, it’s a deal-breaker and we will look elsewhere. When we’re looking around, that’s what we’re looking for- the place that lets us use our gifts and talents to help others become better Christians, while everyone else is just as invested in helping us become better Christians.

It’s a little different from seeking the church that excites you the most. And I know this was somewhere in the back of your mind- a Catholic parish is not going to excite you the most, so come back around when you’re looking for the right things. The issue is this, though- we are looking for the right things, and the average Catholic parish doesn’t do a very good job of providing them. It’s not God-awful, but it’s not a particularly viable competitor either, and that’s why so many Tiber swimmers leave.
I agree with you that in many cases, Protestants switch churches/denominations because of a marriage or a move.

But I disagree with much of the rest of this post.

My husband and I were Evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of our lives. I’m pretty certain I’ve dropped these names around you before, Sixpence, but JIC, the church I attended growing up was pastored by Evelyn Christenson’s husband. Gary Smalley was our associate pastor. John Ortberg was in my youth group. We frequently had guest speakers like Dr. Bill Bright, Erwin Lutzer, and Leighton Ford.

Like it or not, I think that the main reason why Evangelical Protestants switch churches is because they are “led by the Holy Spirit” often due to a disagreement with their home church. Sometimes this disagreement is over Bible teachings or doctrine. But all too often, it’s over a personality or a practice.

Here’s an example of a “practice.” In the 1980s, when my husband and I were living 1000 miles away from our hometown, my dear mother continued to be part of our Baptist church. During that time, many MANY of the older people left because of the Music Wars. A very famous musician came to the church to be music minister (you would know his name and many Catholics who follow contemporary music would know his name, but I’m not going to drop it because I don’t want his memory tarnished). He did some controversial things with the choirs, musicians, soloists, etc… I’ll admit, I didn’t care for these things because I’m a big believer in allowing all willing musicians to participate and not holding “auditions” for church choirs.

The older people simply felt left out and disenfranchised, so they left. Most of them went downtown to the mainline churches, which was very hard for them, as many of those churches were teaching truly incorrect doctrine (e.g., acceptance of homosexual practices).

But there is another reason why Protestants switch churches, and this is sad. It’s because they are hurt in their church by a person or persons. Sometimes the hurt is actually criminal; e.g., sexual activity. This happened in EVERY Protestant church that I attended in my 47 years as a Protestant, so it’s not “rare.” (It didn’t happen to me personally, but the incidents occured and the church members knew about them, often because we were informed from the pulpit.)

Most of the time, the hurt is not criminal, but it’s still very painful. My husband and I were actually kicked out of our Protestant church, the last Protestant church we attended. I’ve described the incident elsewhere, but suffice it to say that the treatment we received was cruel and capricious, and it is certain that my husband and I will never return to any Protestant church. If for some reason we become disillusioned with Catholicism, we will simply drop out of church totally.

I recommend an excellent book called Exit Interviews. Sorry, can’t remember the author, and I’ve lent our copy of the book out, so can’t go check. You’ll have to order it online, as it is out-of-print. Look for a book about 18 people who left their churches (all denominations, and also the Catholic Church). It’s a heart-wrenching book, and I wasn’t able to read more than one interview every few days, as it is hard to handle. The premise of the book is that churches need to keep a check on their “back door” and determine why people are leaving their churches. Often, they leave because they are badly hurt by someone in the church–so tragic.
 
Sixpence
Incidentally, fifty percent of Tiber swimmers return to some form of Protestantism within one year of converting to Catholicism.
Documentation?
It might sound kind of odd to you in your head or if you ever say it out loud, but the Catholic Church is not particularly good at helping Christians become better Christians. This is the single most important issue that governs the Protestant thought process, and unfortunately, it seems to be a concept that many Catholics don’t really grasp. The solution is better mystagogy, but I guess there’s enough Catholic parishes that don’t see it as a high priority.
How do you figure that?
 
I had really hoped that this was going to be about Footloose. :yup:
:extrahappy: Hahahaha!! I will now have that song stuck in my head all day!

I agree with another poster in that we could learn from the Protestants in having more fellowship type activities and was so so glad that my local parish offered a vacation Bible school (but we’re in the Bible belt so when in Rome…or maybe when not in Rome…anyway). I was talking to my aunt about how attractive the events at the local Protestant churches were (the singing, the bounce house, the snow cone mobile) and my dear aunt, who always says it like it is replied “We don’t need a party, we have the Truth”.

Its true, though all those fellowship activities and the boisterous singing and worship style are attractive when it comes down to it I can receive the Body and Blood at the Catholic church. That trumps a snow cone any day.
 
Looking for an explanation from Protestants. How do Protestants go to all the churches?

You find some that go to a Lutheran Church, then a Presbyterian one, then, perhaps as a result of moving, now go to a Methodist Church, give that a shot until they find the other Baptist church more exciting, give Presbyterians a few months time and then bounce back to Lutherans, etc., etc.

How does this happen? Is there some common creed, so that the actual denomination matters not?
Back when I was part of evangelical/fundamentalist churches we often would get visited by ‘church hoppers’ (or as one preacher coined them, spiritually homeless).
EVERY CHURCH in the TRI-STATE area knew who these people were and groaned when they walked into church. The man walked in clutching his King James Bible, mom looked like she walked straight out of ‘Leave it to Beaver’, the kids looked like little drones.
Have you ever had a four year old girl tell a teacher in Sunday School “that’s not scriptural”? I have.
Anyway, after the service the father would walk up to the preacher with a list of things his family believed and wanted to know ‘where the church stands on…’. Then they would tell you what was wrong with the last seven churches (and preachers) they were a part of. He would explain they were just ‘looking for a place to serve God’.
If (God help you) they LIKED you (or thought you might be easy to control). They would join your church for a while. Within a year (aw, heck with a month) all Hell would break loose and they would turn the church into a battlefield.
A couple years would go by and another pastor would tell you this family now has a ‘house church’ and the father is the preacher.
I’ll let you play around with the psychology/theology of this. But they are in every town in America.
 
My guess is most Protestants, like most people, tend to go to the church they are raised in. I don’t think most Protestants church hop. I think most stay right where they are except for changes due to marriages or a new home. I would guess most would go to the same denomination if they could when they move but might end up changing if there is not a church of their denomination close to their home.

I do think for many the denomination does not matter so much. One reason is that the original reasons for some of the divisions are less important to later generations. And in my experience if we are talking about mainline churches then the denomination can matter less than the local church and its pastor. A mainline denomination might have official teachings but in a local church the teachings can be a blend of different beliefs from varied traditions or at odds with official doctrine. And in defense of Protestant churches I must add that the Catholic church has the same issue. There are those whose teachings are at odds with official teaching. I also think many people are poorly catechized in their church’s beliefs. So they may not be aware of doctrinal differences. Of course they probably also do not care since they are unaware in the first place.
 
In my experience as a college student a lot of it has to do with what’s available. My freshman year roommate is Moravian, but she is very active in the Baptist group on campus, because they are the most active Christian group, and the nearest Moravian church is an hour away. She is this summer, working at a Baptist summer camp, and she admits that she has disagreements with some of the ideals within the group, but she feels that because she is interacting with people who are different and her faith is being challenged, she can become stronger in it and be a better Christian. For her its a way to stay involved and to grow.

I also think it’s a matter of practicality. My current roommate stopped going to Church because she had been raised in a VERY strict Southern Baptist Church, and upon getting to school she couldn’t find a Church that was compatible with how she was raised. I think many in that situation would think a Church making a few errors, but with a lot of good is better than none.

I think the other thing is that for many, because of the way salvation is preached, people don’t define themselves as their denomination. Rather than saying “I’m a Baptist”, I hear a lot of my friends saying “I’m a Christian” and to them one Church is much like another.

Personally, I was a truth seeker. I attended Methodist, Baptist, Quaker, non-denominational, and Catholic services, and groups growing up at various times. In my teen years I would go from one to another, not because I didn’t like the group I was leaving, but because it was missing something. I’m coming home to the Catholic Church, but it has taken me a long time, and others may seek all their lives and never believe they’ve found the truth. Such a quest can cause chronic denomination hopping.

I’m sure there are a million other reasons, but these are the ones I have experience with.
 
Yeah, that’s why I said they were probably poorly catechized, or just don’t care about doctrine, the real presence or any other for that matter.

It sounds nonsensical to Lutheran ears, too. For Lutherans, the sacraments of Baptism, confession/Absolution, and the Eucharist should be non-negotiable as well. But, they are just a few of many things.

Jon

EDIT: Just as an after thought, it is precisely this issue that would keep me out of all but one other protestant communion.
Lutherans believe in the real presence and confession/absolution? This is new to me.

Anyway, I know what the OP means. I’ve known people who go from Lutheran to Pentecostal to other Protestant denominations.

My cousin belonged to a nondenominational Protestant Evangelical sect now he is Pentecostal. (he’s a former Catholic). shrugs
 
Back when I was part of evangelical/fundamentalist churches we often would get visited by ‘church hoppers’ (or as one preacher coined them, spiritually homeless).
EVERY CHURCH in the TRI-STATE area knew who these people were and groaned when they walked into church. The man walked in clutching his King James Bible, mom looked like she walked straight out of ‘Leave it to Beaver’, the kids looked like little drones.
Have you ever had a four year old girl tell a teacher in Sunday School “that’s not scriptural”? I have.
Anyway, after the service the father would walk up to the preacher with a list of things his family believed and wanted to know ‘where the church stands on…’. Then they would tell you what was wrong with the last seven churches (and preachers) they were a part of. He would explain they were just ‘looking for a place to serve God’.
If (God help you) they LIKED you (or thought you might be easy to control). They would join your church for a while. Within a year (aw, heck with a month) all Hell would break loose and they would turn the church into a battlefield.
A couple years would go by and another pastor would tell you this family now has a ‘house church’ and the father is the preacher.
I’ll let you play around with the psychology/theology of this. But they are in every town in America.
ROFL!!!

I have met the people you described!!!
 
Back when I was part of evangelical/fundamentalist churches we often would get visited by ‘church hoppers’ (or as one preacher coined them, spiritually homeless).
EVERY CHURCH in the TRI-STATE area knew who these people were and groaned when they walked into church. The man walked in clutching his King James Bible, mom looked like she walked straight out of ‘Leave it to Beaver’, the kids looked like little drones.
Have you ever had a four year old girl tell a teacher in Sunday School “that’s not scriptural”? I have.
Anyway, after the service the father would walk up to the preacher with a list of things his family believed and wanted to know ‘where the church stands on…’. Then they would tell you what was wrong with the last seven churches (and preachers) they were a part of. He would explain they were just ‘looking for a place to serve God’.
If (God help you) they LIKED you (or thought you might be easy to control). They would join your church for a while. Within a year (aw, heck with a month) all Hell would break loose and they would turn the church into a battlefield.
A couple years would go by and another pastor would tell you this family now has a ‘house church’ and the father is the preacher.
I’ll let you play around with the psychology/theology of this. But they are in every town in America.
OMG I love this post. It is so true. I laughed out loud because the people you describe sound almost exactly like a few families I have known. The people I’m thinking about cycle through our church every 7 years or so. The mom says she has a call to preach, but no one that I know of is comfortable giving her their pulpit (not because she is a woman but because of far more serious concerns). They stay a few months and then eventually find some excuse to leave. Last I heard they were operating a house church on Sundays but most of their “members” left when she said “Thus saith the Lord, ‘Bring your tithes into the storehouse.’”

These kind of people are the exception rather than the rule. I think most people will stay in their local church unless they move, marry, or if there is some controversy within that local church. I’ve been a member of only one church my entire life, except for about a year when we went to different churches while our home church was imploding. When the chaos subsided in our home church, we went back,
 
Lutherans believe in the real presence and confession/absolution? This is new to me.
Hi Riley,
On the real presence, from the Apology of the Augsburg Confession,
in which we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the** body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present,** and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament. This belief we constantly defend, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. For since Paul says, 1 Cor. 10:16, that the bread is the communion of the Lord’s body, etc., it would follow, if the Lord’s body were not truly present, that the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of the spirit of Christ. 55] And we have ascertained that not only the Roman Church affirms the bodily presence of Christ, but the Greek Church also both now believes, and formerly believed, the same. For the canon of the Mass among them testifies to this, in which the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become the very body of Christ. And Vulgarius, who seems to us to be not a silly writer, says distinctly that bread is not a mere figure, but 56] is truly changed into flesh.
And on Confession/Absolution, from the Augsburg Confession:
Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession 2] an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19:12.
and the Small Catechism:
V. Confession
How Christians should be taught to confess.
What is Confession?*
Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.
What sins should we confess?
Before God we should plead guilty of all sins, even of those which we do not know, as we do in the Lord’s Prayer. But before the confessor we should confess those sins alone which we know and feel in our hearts.
Which are these?
Here consider your station according to the Ten Commandments, whether you are a father, mother, son, daughter, master, mistress, a man-servant or maid-servant; whether you have been disobedient, unfaithful, slothful; whether you have grieved any one by words or deeds; whether you have stolen, neglected, or wasted aught, or done other injury.
Pray, Propose to Me a Brief Form of Confession.
You should speak to the confessor thus: Reverend and dear sir, I beseech you to hear my confession, and to pronounce forgiveness to me for God’s sake.
I, a poor sinner, confess myself before God guilty of all sins; especially I confess before you that I am a man-servant, a maidservant, etc. But, alas, I serve my master unfaithfully; for in this and in that I have not done what they commanded me; I have provoked them, and caused them to curse, have been negligent [in many things] and permitted damage to be done; have also been immodest in words and deeds, have quarreled with my equals, have grumbled and sworn at my mistress, etc. For all this I am sorry, and pray for grace; I want to do better.
A master or mistress may say thus:
In particular I confess before you that I have not faithfully trained my children, domestics, and wife [family] for God’s glory. I have cursed, set a bad example by rude words and deeds, have done my neighbor harm and spoken evil of him, have overcharged and given false ware and short measure.
And whatever else he has done against God’s command and his station, etc.
But if any one does not find himself burdened with such or greater sins, he should not trouble himself or search for or invent other sins, and thereby make confession a torture, but mention one or two that he knows. Thus: In particular I confess that I once cursed; again, I once used improper words, I have once neglected this or that, etc. Let this suffice.
But if you know of none at all (which, however is scarcely possible), then mention none in particular, but receive the forgiveness upon your general confession which you make before God to the confessor.
Then shall the confessor say:
God be merciful to thee and strengthen thy faith! Amen.
Furthermore:
Dost thou believe that my forgiveness is God’s forgiveness?
Yes, dear sir.
Then let him say:
As thou believest, so be it done unto thee. And by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ I forgive thee thy sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Depart in peace.
But those who have great burdens upon their consciences, or are distressed and tempted, the confessor will know how to comfort and to encourage to faith with more passages of Scripture. This is to be merely a general form of confession for the unlearned.
Jon
Jon
 
Thank you for your response John. I see you belong to the LCMS (there is one where I live, and two ELCA parishes). Obviously, I don’t know much about the practices of LCMS differ from ELCA. LCMS from what I observed are closer to Catholics, where as ELCA are rather liberal.

God Bless
 
Thank you for your response John. I see you belong to the LCMS (there is one where I live, and two ELCA parishes). Obviously, I don’t know much about the practices of LCMS differ from ELCA. LCMS from what I observed are closer to Catholics, where as ELCA are rather liberal.

God Bless
My pleasure.
True, they are more liberal - odaining women, and :eek: practicing gays, but when it comes to these two items, confession and the Eucharist, both confess what the confessions teach.

Jon
 
My pleasure.
True, they are more liberal - odaining women, and :eek: practicing gays, but when it comes to these two items, confession and the Eucharist, both confess what the confessions teach.

Jon
Jon, I can’t imagine that the LC-MS would ever go down the women/gay ordination path, but if she did (Lord have mercy) I hope the RCC rolls out a Lutheran Ordinariate pronto.
 
It sounds nonsensical to Lutheran ears, too. For Lutherans, the sacraments of Baptism, confession/Absolution, and the Eucharist should be non-negotiable as well. But, they are just a few of many things.

Jon

EDIT: Just as an after thought, it is precisely this issue that would keep me out of all but one other protestant communion.
Understood. 🙂
Incidentally, fifty percent of Tiber swimmers return to some form of Protestantism within one year of converting to Catholicism.
Do you have a statistic to back that up? Otherwise I don’t believe it.

Maybe my area is just weird, but I know a few converts, and half definitely don’t return to Protestantism.
There’s not much of a focus on ensuring that new members of a parish are getting what they need in order to become better Christians. It might sound kind of odd to you in your head or if you ever say it out loud, but the Catholic Church is not particularly good at helping Christians become better Christians.
That is not reflective of my experience of the Catholic Church.

I confess it is for plenty of others, though. We’re working on it. 🙂
I’m just his friend, and I’m joyful that he lets me pester him and help him, but quite frankly - someone in his parish should be doing this.
Yes, you’re right.
If I have any recommendation, is that Catholics study protestants a bit more. Put us under the microscope and see if there’s anything we are doing that you can emulate - anything that may help in faith formation. I think there is, based on my experience, but I honestly hope I’m wrong and our local parishes are just dropping the ball.
Actually, I think that’s good advice. We often can learn a lot from those Protestant churches that are very skilled at building intimate communities. 🙂
 
OMG I love this post. It is so true. I laughed out loud because the people you describe sound almost exactly like a few families I have known. The people I’m thinking about cycle through our church every 7 years or so. The mom says she has a call to preach, but no one that I know of is comfortable giving her their pulpit (not because she is a woman but because of far more serious concerns). They stay a few months and then eventually find some excuse to leave. Last I heard they were operating a house church on Sundays but most of their “members” left when she said “Thus saith the Lord, ‘Bring your tithes into the storehouse.’”

These kind of people are the exception rather than the rule. I think most people will stay in their local church unless they move, marry, or if there is some controversy within that local church. I’ve been a member of only one church my entire life, except for about a year when we went to different churches while our home church was imploding. When the chaos subsided in our home church, we went back,
Oh there were other “hoppers” back in my fundy days I remember.
One guy portrayed his family as a “Leave it to Beaver” family until it was revealed he beat his wife quite often until she finally threw him out. Last I heard he joined some survivalist cult.
We had a woman like you describe as well. Some of the men in the church dubbed her “Aunt Esther”😃 (Sanford and Son referance for you guys under 30). Her husband was very quiet (can’t imagine why).
I remember one guy who came to my house. We discussed the Scriptures until I said something he disagreed on and threw my Bible at me.
I escorted him to the door. He was lucky I just didn’t deck him.
These people are always gung ho, a little toooo eager to get involved and the first ones to complain. The common thread seems to be a strong-willed man or woman dragging thier family kicking and screaming into what they percieve as Christianity.
 
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