Protstant dancing between denominations?

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But I think I may be missing your point because you surely can’t be arguing that because the Sacraments are gifts that they are somehow disordered or useless?
Just that they’re over-emphasized to the point where the full extent of your church life is one in which someone else gives and you are somehow active in receiving. It’s insufficient. What is there that the laity can do for you? What is there for you to do for the laity? And is there any way that any of it- in your estimation- can begin to approach the value of what the clergy does? I would argue that the ministry of one layperson to another is equal in value to what the clergy does, and some of it covers ground that the clergy can’t cover. But even if you don’t see them as equal, it’s probably in your best interest to elevate your assessment of the importance of lay ministry (formal and otherwise) to something higher than the prevailing Catholic average.
 
Hee. I actually own catechisms from other churches. At one point I was even researching Buddhism and Gnosticism. I have great respect for other faiths (although I do struggle with some bitterness towards the religion of my youth) but I think there’s no harm in a little gentle ribbing. 😉
Are you implying that you actually do have a few icons laying about? 🙂
 
I suppose you beat the odds. Or maybe your parish is one if the few that does a good job with mystagogy.

Weekly attendance is actually about the same between Protestants and Catholics, but there are so few Protestants who would ever call themselves Protestants if they didn’t attend church at least occasionally, and the practicing-non practicing distinction breaks down approximately like this for Catholics. Synod: Poll finds practicing, non-practicing Catholics in America are worlds apart | National Catholic Reporter

According to some kind of head guy with Knights of Columbus.

Did you ever look around at other Protestant churches? Some are better than others, and you tend to have a lot more options available to you as a Protestant than you do as a Catholic.

Our difference of opinion might have something to do with our different assessments of the relative value that the sacraments have in making you a better Christian.

My goodness, I suppose the mystagogy was not so good at your parish. I wouldn’t call it hand-holding, but two-thirds of Tiber swimmers could use some more of it within the first five years. Are you a revert? That can be of assistance- I think straight-out converts are more like complete strangers than reverts are, so they tend to need a little more help putting down roots.

Back to the point about the relative efficacy of the sacraments- on their own, they don’t give converts much of a reason to stick around. They need something else in order to stay committed past a year (half don’t) or five years (two thirds don’t). That something is what you call hand-holding, but I would call it the stuff that is comparatively more important and more effective than the sacraments in helping Christians become better Christians. You’re more likely to downplay that if your focus is strictly sacramental, but I would argue that you’re downplaying something that is very important, and to your own detriment.

Everything that you’ve listed is done for you, to you, or on your behalf. At what point do you contribute something? See, this is the other reason why downplaying the non-sacramental types of things is so bad. It downplays everything that you can do as a layperson, and even if it doesn’t strictly limit you to an entirely passive role, it devalues the things you can do by comparison and makes you less likely to do them.

Well, there’s a reason why the CC is working so hard to try and get the laity more involved in doing things of value. It’s actually a long list of rather complicated reasons whose problematic roots are well outside these United States, and it has as much to do with an inordinately high view of the priestly duties as it does with all the laity-related issues. But the short version is that the CC badly needs to change what’s happening with the laity, and I acknowledge that they’re in the early stages of working really hard on it while also pointing out how far they have to go and how they had soooo very far to go when they first started. And if you ask me, all of this is intimately related to what should be (and sometimes is) the core mission of any Christian church- win non believers for Christ and help Christians become better Christians. Again, the CC in the US is working on this, but they really aren’t particularly good at either of them (at this time) (relatively speaking) and it becomes especially apparent in this type of highly competitive environment.
Sixpence—

I think Catholics have been pretty forthright in admitting that they sometimes don’t do enough teaching to help fellow Catholics understand their faith. I don’t see any point in rubbing it in.

I’m an Evangelical, and sometimes I get where you’re coming from, but at times your posts seem rather combative. Nicky is being pretty gracious at this point, and it feels to me like you’re just hounding her.
 
Sixpence—

I think Catholics have been pretty forthright in admitting that they sometimes don’t do enough teaching to help fellow Catholics understand their faith. I don’t see any point in rubbing it in.

I’m an Evangelical, and sometimes I get where you’re coming from, but at times your posts seem rather combative. Nicky is being pretty gracious at this point, and it feels to me like you’re just hounding her.
I did just switch back and forth from serious to joking in a matter if minutes, and that’s probably a bad move when it’s done on the same thread. To Nicky- my smilied posts are all joking around, and I hope you don’t feel hounded.

To Abidewithme- I have noticed Catholics on here, and even some prominent bishop-type Catholics in the news lately speaking with humility and talking about how no church is perfect. But the sort-of-new Catholic that I am not joking around with hasn’t showed me any of that. But perhaps this is an issue that is best conveyed by another Catholic (maybe personally, maybe not) rather than someone like me.
 
To Abidewithme- I have noticed Catholics on here, and even some prominent bishop-type Catholics in the news lately speaking with humility and talking about how no church is perfect. But the sort-of-new Catholic that I am not joking around with hasn’t showed me any of that. But perhaps this is an issue that is best conveyed by another Catholic (maybe personally, maybe not) rather than someone like me.
I agree with you about some Catholics showing humility while others don’t. It isn’t easy to know how to act towards the less realistic posters, but I’ve been trying to keep in mind that as much as I value my Evangelical church, other people value their churches.
 
Just that they’re over-emphasized to the point where the full extent of your church life is one in which someone else gives and you are somehow active in receiving. It’s insufficient. What is there that the laity can do for you? What is there for you to do for the laity? And is there any way that any of it- in your estimation- can begin to approach the value of what the clergy does? I would argue that the ministry of one layperson to another is equal in value to what the clergy does, and some of it covers ground that the clergy can’t cover. But even if you don’t see them as equal, it’s probably in your best interest to elevate your assessment of the importance of lay ministry (formal and otherwise) to something higher than the prevailing Catholic average.
You make so many assumptions that I don’t even know where to being responding to you.

What do you I do for my fellow parishioners?

Give them rides to Mass because they can’t walk.
Participate in music ministry.
Participate in the liturgy of the word.
Give money to the women’s shelter.
Give my time to fund raising efforts.
Give food to the local food banks.
Give love and time to the elderly.
Give kindness to everyone - even people most would avoid.

The list goes on and on and on. I don’t only receive and how odd that you think I do just because I value the Sacraments quite highly?

Without the Eucharist there is no life within me. Period.
Without Confession I am prone to falling into pride and anger. Period.

That doesn’t mean I don’t give as much as I take. I don’t know… I really think we’re misunderstanding each other here because you have some pretty skewed views.
 
Sixpence—

I think Catholics have been pretty forthright in admitting that they sometimes don’t do enough teaching to help fellow Catholics understand their faith. I don’t see any point in rubbing it in.

I’m an Evangelical, and sometimes I get where you’re coming from, but at times your posts seem rather combative. Nicky is being pretty gracious at this point, and it feels to me like you’re just hounding her.
:amen:
 
You make so many assumptions that I don’t even know where to being responding to you.

What do you I do for my fellow parishioners?

Give them rides to Mass because they can’t walk.
Participate in music ministry.
Participate in the liturgy of the word.
Give money to the women’s shelter.
Give my time to fund raising efforts.
Give food to the local food banks.
Give love and time to the elderly.
Give kindness to everyone - even people most would avoid.
Ok, this is the important stuff. I notice you don’t include anything about evangelism, but maybe you do it but didn’t want to mention it.

This is the stuff that makes you a better Christian. Even within a sacramental framework, the sacraments only give you grace. They don’t make you a better Christian unless you put it into practice. There are plenty of awful Christians who show up for the sacraments every once in awhile and otherwise live exactly like non-religious people. Then there’s people who integrate some form of ministry into their vocation and make it part of their identity, and those are the ones who are becoming better Christians. Christians are called to submit to Christ and be the servant of all. This happens when you submit and when you serve. It does not happen when you choose to take it in the hand or in the mouth.

That’s not all, though. You must have noticed at some point that Protestants are more than capable of participating in ministry, in serving God, becoming better Christians, and being more fully conformed to God’s likeness. You must have noticed that this all happens quite regularly, and quite in the absence of any Catholic sacraments. I don’t have a particular passage of Scripture to argue this from, but I would ask that you look around.
The list goes on and on and on. I don’t only receive and how odd that you think I do just because I value the Sacraments quite highly?
Maybe you lost track of the question somewhere in the course of answering it? I did not ask what you like best about being a Catholic. I did not ask what is most important to you. I did not ask the good Catholic to please tell me what I lack that I may have the fullness of truth. I asked something about how it is that you’re becoming a better Christian, and the only things you talked about were the sacraments.

You do realize Protestants are Christians too, right? Let me connect the dots for you: We are all Christians, and the things we do in order to become better Christians are all pretty much the same. After understanding this, the next thing you do is get an idea of which church in your area does the best job of making that happen for you. That is the best church for you. If that’s your local Catholic parish, mazel tov. But it isn’t always that way.
Without the Eucharist there is no life within me. Period.
Without Confession I am prone to falling into pride and anger. Period.
I was under the impression that the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit was the deciding factor in this for Christians. As a universal rule.
That doesn’t mean I don’t give as much as I take. I don’t know… I really think we’re misunderstanding each other here because you have some pretty skewed views.
I guess I see where you’re coming from. A little. It probably goes both ways to some extent.
 
There are a select few Protestants who believe every single thing must have the explicit support of a passage from Scripture. On CAF, however, I seriously doubt that you could find two non-Catholics to rub together who would answer this sort of question in the affirmative.

:twocents:
I think there are many such protestants, but they hold the CC in such disdain that they avoid anything with “Catholic” in the name. They have their own forums.

I was a member of such a denomination, one calling it’self the “church of Christ”. They avoid anything that is not explicitly demanded to be done, and consider it a sin. Such as organ music, crosses, candles, and even calling the preacher “Reverend”. This is not a small group, in fact they dominate many places in the South and Southwest even outnumbering the Baptists.

They absolutely hate Catholics and Orthodox. They think we are a “totally apostate” church. Of course they are usually extremely wrong about what they think Catholics actually beleive. They send missioners to traditionally Catholic and Orthodox lands like Italy and Romainia to “save” the people there.

There are other groups extremely conservative Presbyterians who have the same principle “if the bible does not order it, it’s wrong”. They call this the regulative principal pf worship, and also abstain from religous holidays, singing only the psalms, never hymns, and also use no instruments.
 
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