PROVE Catholicism True!

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I do not know how you started talking about Sola Scriputra.
This got on Sola Scriptora because the question was asked, “Should we not value the Word of God as revealed in scripture over everything else?” (my emphasis added). It just sounds an awful lot like Sola Scriptora.
I am talking about a biblical principle, which Jesus adhered to. Many times Jesus said: “It is written”…
The Hebrews had a biblical principle of checking the scriptures.
Jesus had a biblical principle of checking the scriptures.
The NT Christians had a biblical principle of checking the scriptures.
You raise a very interesting topic here. Would you say the Hebrews had interpreted the scriptures correctly? Or would you say it took God’s intervention (by way of Jesus’ corrections and interpretations) for the Jews to properly understand what they read?

You see, I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and moreover that it is free from error. How can I believe this? I believe God protected the authors of the various texts of the Bible from error. You could say that I believe, as do most Christians whether they realize it or not, that God gave the authors the gift of infallibility, at least during their writing.

There are three points I’d like to draw from what I’ve just said:
  1. We know that God can, and has, given the gift of infallibilty to men before (else we could not believe the Bible is free from error in teaching).
  2. We find it necessary to believe the Bible is free from error in teaching. Why? Because we need to know we are grounded in truth. But why should the Bible be free from error, if we are unable to determine if we’ve erred in interpretation?
  3. We know that the Christian world is wrought with divisions…all based on individual interpreation of an error-free, God inspried Bible.
Why then is it so difficult to think God may have provided what we need?
I will refrase the question: how often do you check the scriptures to see if what your teachers are saying is true?
Stick around, and I think you may be surprised at the Biblical literacy of the Catholics herein (I’m trying not to be offended at the accusation included in that question).
 
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.
Tell me how to determine if this has happened (to you or to me). Please! Explain your methodology.
 
This got on Sola Scriptora because the question was asked, “Should we not value the Word of God as revealed in scripture over everything else?” (my emphasis added). It just sounds an awful lot like Sola Scriptora.

You raise a very interesting topic here. Would you say the Hebrews had interpreted the scriptures correctly? Or would you say it took God’s intervention (by way of Jesus’ corrections and interpretations) for the Jews to properly understand what they read?

You see, I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and moreover that it is free from error. How can I believe this? I believe God protected the authors of the various texts of the Bible from error. You could say that I believe, as do most Christians whether they realize it or not, that God gave the authors the gift of infallibility, at least during their writing.

There are three points I’d like to draw from what I’ve just said:
  1. We know that God can, and has, given the gift of infallibilty to men before (else we could not believe the Bible is free from error in teaching).
  2. We find it necessary to believe the Bible is free from error in teaching. Why? Because we need to know we are grounded in truth. But why should the Bible be free from error, if we are unable to determine if we’ve erred in interpretation?
  3. We know that the Christian world is wrought with divisions…all based on individual interpreation of an error-free, God inspried Bible.
Why then is it so difficult to think God may have provided what we need?

Stick around, and I think you may be surprised at the Biblical literacy of the Catholics herein (I’m trying not to be offended at the accusation included in that question).
I have no problem with the fact that the scriptures are free from error. Paul knew the word of God fully Col.1:25 and anything added to what is already fully know needs to be examined. Do you aree with this?
 
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.
Tell me how to determine if this has happened (to you or to me). Please! Explain your methodology.
I would prefer not to go into examples as I consider that you are not ready for this.

I would like to discuss this principle of human tradition.
 
Don’t misunderstand, I am actually quite amiable with many dear Protestant friends, so I am not Protestant bashing here. I am trying to state the facts as I see them. As we discuss how to determine what is true, the method for making such a determination must be taken into consideration, and the fact is, Protestantism does not provide such a method.
…ah yes…and I try to be quite amiable with my Catholic friends here…although at times my subtle sense of irony and sarcasm might get the better of me.

Actually, as I read you argments, they would be true if I were to compare and contrast any two religious systems where (1) the final authority of the religious system is an inerrant document and (2) the final authority of the religious system is an infallible leadership which interprets the inerrant document. I would naturally expect the outworkings of these two different types of systems to have different characteristics.

Religious system (1) would be characterized by disagreements concerning what the religious text means when the inerrant document is ambiguous. Religious system (2) would be characterized by disagreements as to what the leadership actually means when it infallibly interprets the inerrant document.

Being Protestant I of course have observed characteristic 1, and I have observed characteristic 2 within this forum.

Should religious system (1) fragment into multiple ecclesiastical organizations, then yes there would be no way to resolve disagreements between the multiple ecclesiastical organizations it fragments into. But the same would be true of (2) if it fragments since the various fragments no longer recognize the same authority.

And of course historically we know that both Catholicism and Protestantism has fragmented. The only difference I see between the fragmentation is the nomenclature adopted after the fragmentation. When Catholicism fragments, the nomenclature has been the fragmented group gets another name. When Protestantism fragments the nomenclature is that the fragmented group gets another name, but still under the general category of Protestantism.

(and of course I am not considering how Sedevacantist Catholics who consider the current recent pontiffs invalid fit into all of this)

Which is why I find arguments over how the differences between how the two different authority structures between Catholicism and Protestantism work out really quite irrelevant. The only issue in my mind that is really important is “How did God in fact design this?”
 
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 (KJV) - " Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

Are we to ignore traditions, or only traditions of men (or human traditions)? How do you interpret 2 Thess. 2:15?
I would prefer not to go into examples as I consider that you are not ready for this.
Believe me, the Catholics on this forum are ready for anything you throw at us. Don’t insult us by saying otherwise.
I would like to discuss this principle of human tradition.
Discuss away!
 
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.

I would prefer not to go into examples as I consider that you are not ready for this.
Well, you might be surprised by what we are “ready” for.
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StHIlarious:
I would like to discuss this principle of human tradition.
In an earlier post you state that "anything added to what is already fully known needs to be examined."

Perhaps you would point out how the Catholic Church has added to “what is fully known?” What may appear to the uncritical observer to be “additions” in Catholic teaching are always doctrinal developments which answer questions not specifically answered in Scripture, as in the case of the dogmatic definition of the Holy Trinity. Such developed doctrine is always deeply embedded in Scripture.

Again, I encourage you to explore the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Pick one of the “additions” to which you object and check it out.

In this post you mention “Philosophy and empty deceit.” In my experience with Protestant interlocutors, their understanding of Col 2:8 is often that all philosophy is “empty deceit.” But the philosophical principles by which Catholic theology interprets the precepts found in Scripture are taught by Paul himself.
In Romans, Chapter 1 (not to mention the Books of Wisdom and Sirach, mentioned above) Paul forcefully uses a philosophical method to affirm that certain moral truths stated in Scripture should be self-evident, even to “the barbarians.” This does not qualify as “empty deceit” to my understanding. Catholics believe that God is rational, and short of divine revelation can be known to a certain extent by the use of the intellect. Remember, Jesus commands us to love God with our minds (Mt. 22:37).
 
Which is why I find arguments over how the differences between how the two different authority structures between Catholicism and Protestantism work out really quite irrelevant. The only issue in my mind that is really important is “How did God in fact design this?”
Good question. I am waiting for a Pretestant to explain to me how a person can determine with certainty what is true.

If the Catholic understanding is correct, God designed thsi such that disagreements about what is meant by the Word of God, can be resolved by an authority whom God protects from making errors in teaching (under certain circumstances). For the Catholic position to be true we must be able to show at least two things:
  1. Peter was given a place of primacy among the Apostles and was given the gift of infallibility.
  2. Peter was given an office, and that gift of infallibilty was to be passed on to others who would hold that office.
We can discuss the Catholic understanding in detail, but so far I’m merely requesting that Protestants describe how it is they can determine what is true. I’ve just described the Catholic understanding of God’s design and would like to hear a description of the Protestant understanding of God’s design for unity.
 
I would prefer not to go into examples as I consider that you are not ready for this.

I would like to discuss this principle of human tradition.
I’m not asking for a specific situation. I am asking for you to explain **how **you would determine that a Christian has been led astray. That is a different question than asking how the person had been astray. I’m asking how you know whether or not a leading astray has occurred? What do you judge it against? I’m still speaking to the method of discernment.
 
Religious system (1) would be characterized by disagreements concerning what the religious text means when the inerrant document is ambiguous. Religious system (2) would be characterized by disagreements as to what the leadership actually means when it infallibly interprets the inerrant document.
In both situations, Catholicism provides a method for ending the dispute. I do not find such a method of resolution in Protestantism. Do you?
 
I just did a google search on “Lutheran Bible James Remove” under the logic that if the Lutherans really did something as outrageous as remove a book from the Bible I should be able to find it under google easily. I found nothing.
Errrrrr… maybe search on the quotes that I provided to you by Lutheran scholars.

Francis Pieper, from Christian Dogmatics, Vol. I [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1950], pp. 330-38, here, states of James, Jude, Revelation and Hebrews:
[Luther] will not class them with the 'right certain chief books of the New Testament.’…”
"…the fathers of the [Lutheran] Missouri Synod recognized the distinction between the homologoumena and the antilegomena. They did, however, leave it to the individual to form his own views regarding any of the antilegomena, for they were divided in their opinion regarding, e.g., the Apocalypse. … Walther writes:"What induces us to discuss this question is the fact that Pastor Roebbelen in connection with the glosses on the Revelation of St. John published in the Lutheraner also stated that with Luther he does not regard the Apocalypse as canonical. "
Franz August Otto Pieper (b. 1852, d. 1931) was the 4th president of the Lutheran Missouri Synod. I’m thinkin’ he’s somewhat knowledgeable about Luthern history.

Test everything…including the Protestant traditions that have been uncritically accepted among many Protestants.

BTW…the Lutherans were not the only “outrageous” ones to remove chapter and verses from Scripture. Your Protestant version of Book of Esther, for example, does not even mention God. The larger recension of Esther, accepted by all Christian churches before the advent of Protestantism, does. This Holy Book is still accepted as Divinely inspired by Catholics, Eastern, and Oriental Orthodox Christians (~64% of all Christianity today).

An odd bunch, the Protestants. Don’t know what they were thinking when they rejected the Christian Bible as handed on to them. But one thing I do know, their version of the Bible is an unholy attempt to abbreviate the written word of God.
 
We can discuss the Catholic understanding in detail, but so far I’m merely requesting that Protestants describe how it is they can determine what is true. I’ve just described the Catholic understanding of God’s design and would like to hear a description of the Protestant understanding of God’s design for unity.
In any system where the final authority is a written document, you can come to unity, but it would be a lot of hard work,

It would involve time, humility, prayer, and honestly considering and evaluating the other persons positions.

In most cases it would involve recognizing that the written text is ambiguous and in the final analysis our views are merely opinions. When there is genuine ambiguity in Scripture, God has obviously not revealed the complete picture.

But since we are Protestants are an arrogant bunch, that proceess is rarely followed.

BTW there are other possible models than either the Catholic or Protestant models. It might be possible (in fact I might say likely) that we both are wrong.
 
If the Catholic understanding is correct, God designed thsi such that disagreements about what is meant by the Word of God, can be resolved by an authority whom God protects from making errors in teaching (under certain circumstances). For the Catholic position to be true we must be able to show at least two things:
  1. Peter was given a place of primacy among the Apostles and was given the gift of infallibility.
  2. Peter was given an office, and that gift of infallibilty was to be passed on to others who would hold that office.
I can think of a few more things that must be true:

(4) God would never withdraw the gift of infallability should either Peter, his successor, or the church in general fall into disobedience to God.
(5) In the case the church divides upon itself and multiple ecclesiastical organizations are created, this gift of infallability will remain with the group that traces its lineage to Peter. Tough luck for the rest of 'em.

BTW I have read the Catholic Biblical case for infallability. It rests on Isaiah 22 (Elaikim) as I recall (as well as Matthew 16). My problem is that as I read these passages, it really seems a big leap to go from what I read to what the Catholic church claims they mean. But then again, my reading comprehension skills might be lacking.🙂
 
In both situations, Catholicism provides a method for ending the dispute. I do not find such a method of resolution in Protestantism. Do you?
An infallible authority could end the dispute if it was worded in such tight legalize that no further ambiguities remain.

But then again a fallible authority could also end disputes if those underneath the authority were Biblically in submission to those whom the Lord has over them.
 
Errrrrr… maybe search on the quotes that I provided to you by Lutheran scholars.

Franz August Otto Pieper (b. 1852, d. 1931) was the 4th president of the Lutheran Missouri Synod. I’m thinkin’ he’s somewhat knowledgeable about Luthern history.

Test everything…including the Protestant traditions that have been uncritically accepted among many Protestants.
First of all I am not Lutheran. Second of all I don’t know any Lutherans (there is no Lutheran church in my kneck of the woods).

Second, before I disparge Lutherans, I would really like to extend to them the courtesy that I would Catholics to explain for themselves what this all means. I would like to ask them personally if in their own synod they are allowed to pick 'n choose what is canonical. Certainly I wouldn’t want to be guilty of spreading ant-Lutheran claptrap as some here spread anti-Catholic claptrap.
An odd bunch, the Protestants. Don’t know what they were thinking when they rejected the Christian Bible as handed on to them. But one thing I do know, their version of the Bible is an unholy attempt to abbreviate the written word of God.
OK already. I hear you. You think Protestantism is a mess.

Well, if you did not believe that, if from the inside I started airing our dirty laundry, I could easily convince you that is the case anyway. So ok, Protestantism (to some extent anyway) is a mess.

I said this once before and I say it again.

I make no claims of my church, my denomination, or Protestantism in general to being the one true ecclesiastical organization. In fact if there is any Catholic out there thinking of converting to one facet of us thinking that is the case, please don’t. You will at some point become very disillusioned. I would want to spare you that.

However this in no wise demonstrates that one true ecclesiastical organization even exists, let alone that Catholicism is it.
 
First of all I am not Lutheran. Second of all I don’t know any Lutherans (there is no Lutheran church in my kneck of the woods).

Second, before I disparge Lutherans, I would really like to extend to them the courtesy that I would Catholics to explain for themselves what this all means. I would like to ask them personally if in their own synod they are allowed to pick 'n choose what is canonical. Certainly I wouldn’t want to be guilty of spreading ant-Lutheran claptrap as some here spread anti-Catholic claptrap.

OK already. I hear you. You think Protestantism is a mess.

Well, if you did not believe that, if from the inside I started airing our dirty laundry, I could easily convince you that is the case anyway. So ok, Protestantism (to some extent anyway) is a mess.

I said this once before and I say it again.

I make no claims of my church, my denomination, or Protestantism in general to being the one true ecclesiastical organization. In fact if there is any Catholic out there thinking of converting to one facet of us thinking that is the case, please don’t. You will at some point become very disillusioned. I would want to spare you that.

However this in no wise demonstrates that one true ecclesiastical organization even exists, let alone that Catholicism is it.
You asked if Luther really wanted to remove the book of James from the Bible and Dave gave you references from Lutheran sources testifying to the fact. Yet you say you’re not Lutheran and don’t know any. What does that have to do with it? He answered your question with verifiable references, what is unclear about that? There are Lutheran converts who will say the same thing, I’ve seen it discussed on the Journey Home program on EWTN.
 

The fact is that I have a local church, a pastor, and am submissive to the leaders whom I believe God has placed over me, thank you very much.
Yes, but who ordained him to be pastor? In NT ecclesiology, ordination required apostolic succession. Luther was a Catholic monk who had no authority to ordain anybody. He had a lawful superior which he disobeyed to start his own church. In so doing, he appendicized Hebrews, so I suppose disobedience to Heb 13:17 was not a problem for him. Luther said in his preface to hist appendicized Hebrews: “Up to this point we have had to do with the true and certain chief books of the New Testament. The four which follow [Hebrew, James, Jude, and Revelation] have from ancient times had a different reputation.” Thus, in Luther’s own words, he does not consider these books to be “true and certain chief books of the New Testament.” He described the Epistle of James as “an epistle of straw.” Luther stated of his appendicized James in his preface, “it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture.

I understand you are not Lutheran, but none of the Protestant churches existed in the 1st through 15th centuries. They created their own Church upon their own version of the Bible.

Who ordained Calvin? Neither was Calvin, or John Smyth–who baptized himself to start the baptist movement–acting in obedience to their lawful pastors. Who commissioned them?

For instance, I’m a commissioned officer in the USAF. Just cuz I went to college and studied a lot of military stuff, does not make me a “commission officer.” I actually have to have received a “commission” from the lawful authority empowered to give that commission. I can’t simply start by own Air Force and pretend it is the “one true” Air Force, as Luther, Calvin, and the rest of the Protestant reformers did when they started their own church. They may have been self-ordained “officers” in their own church, but they are not officers in the lawful Church of Christ which came before them, established in the first century, and continued by the lawful pastors who were ordained through apostolic succession. No self-ordination were valid in NT ecclesiology.
I have no idea how to prove the 66 versus 73 or 81 book issue. From the little I have read, it is a case of different metrics used for canonicity.
It is a case of different understanding of authority. The earliest Christians submitted to the authority of the lawfully ordained pastors of the Church, with St. Peter as the “chief pastor” (cf. Protestant sources here, here and here ) of the ekklhsia kaq olhV (Acts 9:31), or Catholic Church, even when it pertained to questions about which books were divinely inspired Scripture. Prophecy is not a matter of personal interpretation. Use any “metric” you like, but no Christian Church before Protestantism held to a 66-book Bible with an abbreviated Daniel and Esther. The facts speak for themselves. Your question involved the “evidence.” I pray you look into it.

Religion is better than irreligion. But it is equally true that true religion is better than false religion, orthodoxy is better than heterodoxy.

For example, I played soccer in college. Practice makes perfect. That is, it is important to practice soccer, in order to become more perfected in it, to add to the greater prefection of the entire team. But not just any practice will due. “Right practice” is necessary for growth in perfection, and “wrong practice” can actually be detrimental to growth in perfection. If I were to disobey my coach, pick up the ball with my hands and run with it down the field then throw it into the opponents goal asserting this sort of “practice” is better, that would be an example of “wrong practice.” It would be wrong for me to do so for two reasons: 1) I am bound to honor and obey the coach, and 2) my “wrong practice” is contrary to growth in the perfection for me and my teammates.

I suggest Luther wrested the ball from the other players, in disobedience to his coach, and began to assert something novel in the practice of Christianity, something detrimental to growth in Christian perfection.

Orthodoxy means “right worship.” Right worship in Christianity is just as important as “right practice” is in soccer. It is important to remain faithful to the worship of God handed by Christ to the apostles, and from the apostles to their successors, and so on. Because “right practice” of Christianity is that which our Lord intended, as there was not a more fitting way to end our misery.
 
You asked if Luther really wanted to remove the book of James from the Bible and Dave gave you references from Lutheran sources testifying to the fact. Yet you say you’re not Lutheran and don’t know any. What does that have to do with it? He answered your question with verifiable references, what is unclear about that? There are Lutheran converts who will say the same thing, I’ve seen it discussed on the Journey Home program on EWTN.
Actually, I would like to partially retract what I said upon adding a word to my google search and finding this document.

Now to be fair, at first reading this doesn’t sound exactly like “removing a book from the Bible”. However I do need time to study the link and try to understand it to the best of my ability. think through the implications and ask stupid questions. I ain’t exactly a theologian you know.

My first question would be what is the current status today (this document is dated you know). I do find it strange that I have found no links of outrage on the internet over Lutherans having removed books from the Bible.
 
In any system where the final authority is a written document, you can come to unity, but it would be a lot of hard work,
That conclusion is quite at odds with the history of Protestantism I think. Is it possible, well I suppose groups may form which think alike and therefore each group can claim unity of belief. But unity among Christians (in general)? Your theory has not been demonstrated so far as I can tell.
When there is genuine ambiguity in Scripture, God has obviously not revealed the complete picture.
Ther are many many beliefs about which you can find a Christian who finds that particualr teaching “ambiguous” in scripture…divorce, baptism, the Eucharist, Confession, the assurance of salvation, the infallibility of the Pope, the reparation of sins, the priesthood in general, and on and on.

Why should we conclude that if the Bible seems ambiguous on a particular topic then God must not have revealed the complete picture about it?
 
I can think of a few more things that must be true:

(4) God would never withdraw the gift of infallability should either Peter, his successor, or the church in general fall into disobedience to God.
Well, yes, I suppose that is true. However, what we can also conclude is that truth is unchanging. Therefore, if the Catholic Church teaches the same things now as it did in the beginning, then what was true then is true now and anything which differs from it would be in error. Correct?

Therefore the theory that the Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church for a while, say the first few hundred years (the time prior to the earliest complete manuscripts in existence today, from which all Christians take their Bibles) and then the Holy Spirit left that church and began guiding the hands of say the King James Version’s adherents, makes no sense does it?

I see only three possibilities:
  1. The Holy Spirit teaches a different truth now then He taught back then.
  2. The Catholic Church teaches a different truth now then it did back then.
  3. The Holy Spirit and the Catholic Church teach the same things now as they did then, and therefore those truths remain true, and everything that differs from that truth is in error.
(5) In the case the church divides upon itself and multiple ecclesiastical organizations are created, this gift of infallability will remain with the group that traces its lineage to Peter. Tough luck for the rest of 'em.

BTW I have read the Catholic Biblical case for infallability. It rests on Isaiah 22 (Elaikim) as I recall (as well as Matthew 16). My problem is that as I read these passages, it really seems a big leap to go from what I read to what the Catholic church claims they mean. But then again, my reading comprehension skills might be lacking.🙂
I am sorry that Papl infallibility has not been better explained to your satisfaction. I am happy to accomodate that need if you are interested (perhaps you can PM or email me, as my explanation is several pages long).

Nevertheless I agree with your conclusion of point (5) above. Although it is not “tough luck” for those who schism from the truth, sicne luck had nothing to do with it. Rather, I would say, woe is them who divide God’s people through schism and lead others astray.
 
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