Prove it!

[JustaServant]

Matthew 28: 18ff

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.​

Notice the progression of the ‘Great Commission.’​

Infants can’t learn doctrine thus can’t be disciples, can they?

You grow into who you are. Baptism is not my announcment that I have enough faith to recieve it. It is finally recieving by faith what was freely given to me in Baptism.
In the Old Testament, circumcision was the mark on one’s body that gave testimony to the Covenant God has made. The sign IN the body represents a change in the heart.
Baptism is the ‘brand’ or the ‘seal’. Salvation is conveyed to us by the operation of the Spirit through Baptism.
It is God’s declaration, not ours. A helpless infant is the recipiant of God’s Grace.
A Grace that awaits our response.

 

[Dokimas]

The Church baptizes babies because baptism is the new circumcision of the New Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), just as the circumcision of eight-day old babies was the sign of the Old Covenant (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3). In Acts 2:39, Peter says baptism is for children as well as adults. The word used for children (“teknon”) means infants, which is proved by Acts 21:21 in reference to eight-day old infants. We see in Acts 10:47-48; 16:15,33 and 1 Cor. 1:16 that entire households were baptized. Household (“oikos”) included infants and children. There is nothing in the Bible about a “believer’s baptism.” It would have been unthinkable from a Jewish perspective to exclude children from God’s covenant kingdom. See also in Matt. 9:2, Mark 2:3-5, Matt. 8:5-13, Luke 6:10, Mark 9:22-25 where people are healed based on another person’s faith (just as babies are washed away of sin based on their parents’ faith).

What does baptizing a baby do for the baby?​

“ In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.” (Col 2:11-12 NKJV)​

This is not about the circumcision of the flesh at 8 days old; it’s about the circumcision of the heart that only can happen by choice, not by a parent or doctor.

“ Then Peter said to them, "**Repent, and let every one of you be baptized **in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. “For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”” (Ac 2:38-39 NKJV)​

Can a baby repent?​

Note: the promise is to children, born and unborn, that if they repent, they can (and maybe should) be baptised. That’s the context.

“ Then those who** gladly received his word **were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.” (Ac 2:41 NKJV)​

Highlighted words self evident, I think.

21“ "but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.”
25 “But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.”(Ac 21:21,25 NKJV)​

Context: This was the teaching that it was wrong to tell Gentile parents to circumsize their children. It has nothing to do with baptism.

“ “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.” (Ac 10:47-48 NKJV)​

Can a baby receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[Dokimas]

Perhaps. But how can you be certain that your *fallible *pastor did not?

Wrong assumption: where did you get that I get my understanding from my pastor?

 

[Dokimas]

We believe that we can do nothing to earn our salvation. And this is proven quite clearly by our baptizing of infants. They do absolutely nothing to received God’s free gift of salvation and grace!

Baptism saves? It doesn’t matter what is believed? What a person does in life doesn’t matter?​

I thought the CC teaches salvation by faith and works? At least that’s what some of you have suggested in the thread about grace alone.​

BTW, I don’t believe salvation is earned; it is given to all who believes correctly about God’s plan of salvation.

 

[romesweethome]

What is the quickest, easiest way to prove to a Baptist that the Catholic church is the true church Jesus Christ founded, and is still the true church?

This is easy.

As a baptist, I believed that the Bible alone was the sole athority of God on this earth.

The Bible never makes this claim, and no one preached or taught this in any form previous to Luther.

You can bypass all other topics of doctrine and go directly to this one. The question of authority, and proving your authority is the quickest way to bringing a person along who is outside the Church. if the Bible is not the sole authority, and it cannot be proven otherwise, then who/what is the authority with scripture and can that other authority be proven and traced back to Christ and His apostles?

peace, rsh

 

[PRmerger]

Wrong assumption: where did you get that I get my understanding from my pastor?

Well, whose interpretation of Scripture do you follow, then? Out of 40,000 different interpretations, you’ve chosen to follow that which your particular pastor proclaims.

How do you know he’s correct?

Will you leave his church if you find you disagree with one of his interpretations? Or will you follow his authority no matter what?

 

[Dokimas]

You grow into who you are. Baptism is not my announcment that I have enough faith to recieve it. It is finally recieving by faith what was freely given to me in Baptism.
In the Old Testament, circumcision was the mark on one’s body that gave testimony to the Covenant God has made. The sign IN the body represents a change in the heart.
Baptism is the ‘brand’ or the ‘seal’. Salvation is conveyed to us by the operation of the Spirit through Baptism.
It is God’s declaration, not ours. A helpless infant is the recipiant of God’s Grace.
A Grace that awaits our response.

Are you saying God’s grace only extends to babies that have been baptised? Then why did King David respond the way he did when his infant died? Read 2 Samuel 12: 15-23 specifically verse 23. The baby died on the7th day so probably wasn’t circumcized. Yet David seemed to understand God’s grace to babies.

 

[Dokimas]

Well, whose interpretation of Scripture do you follow, then? Out of 40,000 different interpretations, you’ve chosen to follow that which your particular pastor proclaims.

How do you know he’s correct?

Will you leave his church if you find you disagree with one of his interpretations? Or will you follow his authority no matter what?

I read the Bible and think.

 

[PRmerger]

I read the Bible and think.

So which is it:

will you leave your pastor’s church if you disagree with his interpretation, or will you stick with his authoritative interpretation?

 

[romesweethome]

Well, whose interpretation of Scripture do you follow, then? Out of 40,000 different interpretations, you’ve chosen to follow that which your particular pastor proclaims.

How do you know he’s correct?

Will you leave his church if you find you disagree with one of his interpretations? Or will you follow his authority no matter what?

true.

take 1000 pastors and ask each one what baptism is, if it is necessary, what it does, and how to perform it.

You will get vastly differing answers.

How do you know which one of the 1000 pastors is correct?

If 500 of them come up with pretty much the same answer, how can you prove that thaey are correct? After all, every one of the pastors claims the bible alone, and claims that the holy spirit guided them.

There has to be an authoritative church to decide these things.

Jesus gave us a church long before he gave us a bible.

peace, rsh

 

[Dokimas]

Well, whose interpretation of Scripture do you follow, then? Out of 40,000 different interpretations, you’ve chosen to follow that which your particular pastor proclaims.

How do you know he’s correct?

Will you leave his church if you find you disagree with one of his interpretations? Or will you follow his authority no matter what?

We visited a church when we were looking. The pastor was trying to promote formal church membership. He likened a person not formally joining the church as a man and woman living together without being married. My wife wrote him a letter; I spoke to him about it. We’ve not been back. I know this man and his church. It is a wonder church used by God to bring the Gospel to the area they live in.
My point here is that there are important teachings that if a church is not consistent with the Bible, one should think carefully before continuing to support the church. I find most churches we’ve visited are very very good.

 

[Dokimas]

BTW, what is the point of these attacks?

 

[JustaServant]

Are you saying God’s grace only extends to babies that have been baptised? Then why did King David respond the way he did when his infant died? Read 2 Samuel 12: 15-23 specifically verse 23. The baby died on the7th day so probably wasn’t circumcized. Yet David seemed to understand God’s grace to babies.

We don’t believe unbaptized babies are condemned, yet, because of Christ’s command to go and baptize and because of original sin we are not exactly sure what happens to these children. All we can say is we entrust them to the mercy of God.

 

[Dokimas]

true.

take 1000 pastors and ask each one what baptism is, if it is necessary, what it does, and how to perform it.

You will get vastly differing answers.

How do you know which one of the 1000 pastors is correct?

If 500 of them come up with pretty much the same answer, how can you prove that thaey are correct? After all, every one of the pastors claims the bible alone, and claims that the holy spirit guided them.

There has to be an authoritative church to decide these things.

Jesus gave us a church long before he gave us a bible.

peace, rsh

Just because blind sheep follow the hireling doesn’t mean they are going in the correct dirrection. Therefore, what’s your point?

 

[PRmerger]

We visited a church when we were looking. The pastor was trying to promote formal church membership. He likened a person not formally joining the church as a man and woman living together without being married. My wife wrote him a letter; I spoke to him about it. We’ve not been back. I know this man and his church. It is a wonder church used by God to bring the Gospel to the area they live in.
My point here is that there are important teachings that if a church is not consistent with the Bible, one should think carefully before continuing to support the church. I find most churches we’ve visited are very very good.

Since you haven’t actually answered my question, which I’ve pointedly asked twice, I’m going to read between the lines and make a few conclusions:

-your avoidance of answering tells me that you understand the dilemma you’ve put yourself into with this type of theology. That’s why you don’t answer.

-you would indeed leave a church if a pastor taught something you didn’t agree with…thus…

you have put YOURSELF as the final, authoritative interpreter of Scripture. If YOU decide that a pastor’s view is non-Biblical, then you will leave and “church shop” until you find a church that has been created in your own image.

Also, I’d like to know what the Bible verses are that tell you what’s a “hard-core belief” and what’s secondary. (To wit: I do not need verses which say your own belief of what’s “hard core”. I want a few verses that say: “Amen, amen! I say to you unless you believe this hard core belief you are not a Christian!”)

 

[Dokimas]

We don’t believe unbaptized babies are condemned, yet, because of Christ’s command to go and baptize and because of original sin we are not exactly sure what happens to these children. All we can say is we entrust them to the mercy of God.

I entrust my children to the Grace of God. I prayed that when they were able to decide for or against Jesus they’d choose Jesus. I prayed I’d be the best example of Jesus I could be so they’d want Jesus. Then when they decided for Jesus they decided to be baptised. God’s grace is the key and no works of a parent is needed to protect a baby.

 

[Dokimas]

Since you haven’t actually answered my question, which I’ve pointedly asked twice, I’m going to read between the lines and make a few conclusions:

-your avoidance of answering tells me that you understand the dilemma you’ve put yourself into with this type of theology. That’s why you don’t answer.

-you would indeed leave a church if a pastor taught something you didn’t agree with…thus…

you have put YOURSELF as the final, authoritative interpreter of Scripture. If YOU decide that a pastor’s view is non-Biblical, then you will leave and “church shop” until you find a church that has been created in your own image.

Also, I’d like to know what the Bible verses are that tell you what’s a “hard-core belief” and what’s secondary. (To wit: I do not need verses which say your own belief of what’s “hard core”. I want a few verses that say: “Amen, amen! I say to you unless you believe this hard core belief you are not a Christian!”)

Actually I’m ordained. Just don’t think it’s important to share it usually because it is irrelevant.​

I am being quite restrained not commenting about ‘blind followers’. I don’t want to be unkind nor incorrect.​

If you feel you must continue to attack in this fashion, have at me. I’m secure in the choices I’ve made trusting in the mercy and grace of God.

 

[PRmerger]

Actually I’m ordained. Just don’t think it’s important to share it usually because it is irrelevant.​

I am being quite restrained not commenting about ‘blind followers’. I don’t want to be unkind nor incorrect.​

If you feel you must continue to attack in this fashion, have at me. I’m secure in the choices I’ve made trusting in the mercy and grace of God.

I usually find that when people take discussions here as personal attacks they have come to an impasse.

You understand the contradiction in your Christian systemology after being on this thread and now are projecting that into some imaginary attack on you.

No one is attacking you. Just questioning you and getting you to understand that your personal interpretation is…fallible…and by definition, “fallible” means you’re going to be wrong.

Now, since you said you’re secure in the choices you’ve made…let’s continue the discussion.

Where are the Bible verses that tell us what’s an essential doctrine and what’s secondary? Chapter and verse, please!

 

[Dokimas]

Since you haven’t actually answered my question, which I’ve pointedly asked twice, I’m going to read between the lines and make a few conclusions:

-your avoidance of answering tells me that you understand the dilemma you’ve put yourself into with this type of theology. That’s why you don’t answer.

-you would indeed leave a church if a pastor taught something you didn’t agree with…thus…

you have put YOURSELF as the final, authoritative interpreter of Scripture. If YOU decide that a pastor’s view is non-Biblical, then you will leave and “church shop” until you find a church that has been created in your own image.

Also, I’d like to know what the Bible verses are that tell you what’s a “hard-core belief” and what’s secondary. (To wit: I do not need verses which say your own belief of what’s “hard core”. I want a few verses that say: “Amen, amen! I say to you unless you believe this hard core belief you are not a Christian!”)

Can a person be a Christian and believe Jesus in not God?​

Can a person be a Christian and believe Jesus did not die and was not raised from the dead?​

Can a person be a Christian and not believe in personal sin?​

Does a person have to speak in tongues to get to Heaven?​

If that is a teaching in error, if a person believe all must speak in tongues to go to Heaven, are they definately not Christian?

 

[JustaServant]

I entrust my children to the Grace of God. I prayed that when they were able to decide for or against Jesus they’d choose Jesus. I prayed I’d be the best example of Jesus I could be so they’d want Jesus. Then when they decided for Jesus they decided to be baptised. God’s grace is the key and no works of a parent is needed to protect a baby.

The most desired way for someone to become God’s son or daughter in baptism is immediately after birth. That is why baptizing babies is the normative way. Obviously, the babies that were baptized in the Scriptures couldn’t profess a faith. So this destroys the notion that you are only baptized by professing a faith in Christ. The babies couldn’t profess faith and were still baptized.
But what about someone who learns of Christ as an adult? They obviously cannot be baptized as a baby, so they are baptized as an adult. In the baby’s case, the child is brought to the water’s of baptism based on the parent’s faith and desire for baptism. The parent’s do have to profess their faith in baptism and the desire for their child to receive it. In the adult’s case, the adult is brought to baptism by his own faith (because he, unlike the child has the capacity to profess it himself). Both of which hopefully result in baptism.